7th Trumpet Rapture?
- Thread starter Everett J Schulte
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Sorry. One of the cons of being an Acts28:28 dispensationalist is that you have to type that long word over and over. An Ac28er is just an abbreviation used to avoid that. When I was on here a couple of years ago, we used A2D, A9D, and A28D, for the 3 basic types and it worked pretty well.
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Douggg
anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
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What about the fulfillment of the dry bones prophecy? In Ezekiel 37.
When you say in God's eyes, I am not thinking you are speaking for God. Why don't you just say as you understand what is Israel?
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
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Surely you don't believe the dry bones prophecy has been fulfilled. You've been spending too much time in denominational churches.
In God's eyes because everything Paul ever said and did in scripture was 100% God-breathed. By Paul's pronouncement of Isa 6:9-10 for the 7th and last time in scripture, in Acts 28:25-27, Israel was totally blinded and, in vs 28, the Salvation of God (Jesus Christ) was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. Indirect proof of this is there is no mention of Israel being active in any way in Paul's 7 books written after Acts. Those 7 books are all Gentile. In all of Acts, the church was Jewish. Overnight, after Acts, the church was 100% Gentile and any one with a logical mind has to wonder why Israel disappeared from the scene. This can only be explained by something dramatic happening in between. The only thing extremely dramatic that happened in between was in Ac 28:25-28, where Israel were first blinded as to truth and then Jesus Christ was taken from them. Also, no prophecy has been fulfilled. The modern nation of Israel was a Rothschild thing, not a God thing. When God actually does fulfill the prophecy of installing Israel in the land, everyone in the world will know it, big time.
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Are you saying that Ezekiel 37:18-24 have been fulfilled in 1948 ?
Ezekiel 37:24
24 And my servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in mine ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.
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Douggg
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I would say 37:18-22 has been fulfilled. Although I would not call the prime minister as king, but the point is they have one leader and one country again.
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seventysevens
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I have more knowledge than you - but it be wasted on you as you think you know it all - you are funny
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1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
I would say it will probably be either the voice of the archangel or Christ.
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Below we find the New Covenant specifically applied to the "church".
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
You must have not read Galatians 3:16-29, where Paul reveals the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant.
Paul said the Law was "added" 430 year "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.
We also see below that the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant.
Therefore your statement about Israel keeping the law through the New Covenant cannot be correct.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
We also see below that the New Covenant is now in effect.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
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Hebrews was written to.....Duh....Hebrews. At least half of each of the other 6 books written by Paul during Acts were written to the Jews. Romans is about 1/2 written to the Jews. The other half of those 6 books were written to Gentiles, all of which were part of Israel because the were all grafted into Israel. The Acts period was entirely Israel. Therefore, nothing from the book of Acts has anything to do with us Gentiles, when it comes to what our calling, hope of our calling, and our rules and directions pertaining to those things. The reason is that the calling for the Jews and Gentiles in Acts was totally different than the calling for the Gentiles, as spelled out ONLY in Paul's post-Acts books. Why is that so difficult for you to absorb when it's as simple as falling off a log?
Here's a verse saying that the Gentiles had no covenants as late as 58AD, about when Romans was written
Rom 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
In about 58 AD, Israel had everything and the Gentiles had none of those things. o back this up, here's a verse from
Eph 2:12
That at that time (Acts) ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Why do the Gentiles want what they hd in Acts, even though what has been offered to them now is infinitely better - as you can see from those 2 passages? Why do the Gentiles want everything that was given to Israel, even though it's not possible for them to have it and, besides, what Israel has pales in comparison to what we have offered to us now?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
ac28,
1. The rapture is before the tribulation Revelation 4:1 according to the context and the time factor Revelation 1:9.
The thing that John saw was the vision of Christ in the midst of the candlesticks Revelation 1:12-18.
Revelation 1:19 was given next for timeline. That is why the vision was the things John saw.
Next, the things that were present in John’s day which is the condition of the churches Revelation 2-3.
The things hereafter is the church age Revelation 4:1.
This goes with Romans 11:25...blindness is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and 2 Thessalonians 2:7. Of he that letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2. Enoch was translated as a type of the rapture to Heaven before the flood came and took them away except Noah and his family who found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
He had to be preserved for he was pure Adamite stock. So they were the remnant to continue all mankind at that moment in time. Jerry Kelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
ac28,
1. The KoH program ended in Matthew 23:37-39. Acts 1:6-7 backs it up.
2. Acts 2 was the beginning of the church.
This has to be understand that this applies to gradual revelation not the KoH program as Berean believes.
3. The mystery of the church was ratified at the cross Ephesians 2:14-15. It didn’t manifest until 7-10 years later with Peter and Cornelius and the vision of the clean and unclean Acts 10.
Paul clarified it more in Ephesians 2-3. He said it had been revealed to the other apostles.
4. Acts 28 was the Jews rejecting Paul’s ministry. So he went to the Gentiles.
Peter and the others were mostly to the Jews.
5. The Jews of the early church were in Christ saved by the death and resurrection Acts 4:2.
Even the Old Testament saints were in Christ because of the cross. Hebrews 11:40 shows that both Old and New Testament saints were perfected together. So both of these companies who have already died will be raptured with those who are alive and remain of the church 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.
All the tribulation saints except the remnant will be raptured in time for the Marriage of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-10. Jerry Kelso
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Jerry,
Whenever the rapture occurs, you, nor I, nor any Saint during the past 1950 years, will take part in it. Our "rapture" is called the "Appearing" and it is infinitely better than the poorly named "rapture." Whenever the rapture occurs, it will be the 2nd resurrection and will be after the 1st resurrection, which is the "appearing", found only in Paul's post-Acts books. I believe the Appearing will happen in 2063, if I were forced to guess a date. Like it or not, the rapture happens at the second Coming at the 7th trump, when the resurrected Saint go out to meet Christ in the air and then return with Him to the earth.
There is zero proof that Christ comes twice and zero proof that, when he does come, He will take those saints from the Acts church directly to Heaven. For one thing, it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. Secondly, NO ONE in Acts ever had a chance of going to Heaven. If you think you are part of that Acts church, who will be raptured, you also must realize that the same rules would apply to that church today that applied to it during the Acts period, and, back then, people had a hope of the New Jerusalem, which certainly isn't Heaven. Every "proof" that says Christ, in His first 2nd Coming will meet the resurrected saints in the air and will take them to Heaven is heresy, at the worst, and an outright lie, at best, because nowhere in the Bible does it say that or even hint at that.
I know that there are but few things in the Bible that are absolute and most of those revolve around deity. For many things we pile the weighted yeas on one pan on the weighing scale and the weighed nays on the other side and see which is the heavier. On the rapture, it seem that the side with the evidence that it occurs at the second Coming, very much outweighs the evidence that says Christ has 2 2nd coming and, in one of them, He takes all the saints to heaven.
To me, every "type" is dishonest and is conjured up by people that attempt to make people believe that this "type" is proof that what they're trying to prove is true. All "type" are meaningless, except maybe the one about David being a "type" of Christ. Even then, much of is is pretty cheesy. Your Enoch "proof" is possibly the most dishonest and laughable "type" I've ever seen. But, of course, you already knew that.
The all-Gentile Church of today is Jesus Christ's actual Body, unlike the body (of believers) of Christ in Corinthians. Christ won't go anywhere without His Body. At present, He is hid in God. When He first appears, in Heaven, to the principalities and Powers in Heaven, we will already be resurrected and there in Heaven waiting for Him.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
ac28,
1. The blessed hope of the appearing of the Great God and Savior is Titus 2:13 is the rapture and not the second advent or the second resurrection.
2. The second Resurrection is 1000 years after the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
3. The rapture does not happen at the second coming or the 7th Trumpet which are two separate things.
The 7th trumpet is in the middle of the tribulation for all the seals, trumpets and vials are consecutive as in one after the other.
The rapture at the second coming is wrong because we are raptured before the tribulation as I described in post #1242.
4. I have already addressed about the church in Acts is the same as the church after Acts and will be raptured at the same time. I gave scripture for everything and you haven’t rebutted one thing.
You are just full of conjecture and opinion more than scripture.
5. Enoch was translated to heaven caused he walked with God and so did Noah. And you don’t think their was a specific reason God did this? If there is no specific reason then Enoch might as well just been preserved in the ark with Noah.
Also, Enoch prophesied the saints coming from Heaven with tens of thousand of his saints to the second coming bringing judgement.
This agrees with Revelation 19:11-21.
So once again you have no scripture to back your position up or rebut the truth of the scriptures I gave.
As far as types, Abraham willing to kill Issac is a type of Christ. There are other types and we do have to be careful which ones we call types.
A true Bible type is Jonah being in the belly of the whale and Christ being in the bowels of the and was resurrected which Jesus mentioned.
6. There is no all Gentile church for Jews are a part as well to make one new man Ephesians 2:14-15. Jerry Kelso.
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1- The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are the same thing and are used interchangably in Mt through chapter 19. Somewhere I have some articles thar prove their sameness. The KofG is the overall Universal Kingdom that everything falls under - the Earth, the Heavens, and the Heaven of Heavens. The KofH is the earthly portion of the KofG. The KofH will still occur. The only reason Christ hasn't returned and Israel's earthly Kingdom hasn't started is because, in Mt 23:39, Christ said He wouldn't return until Israel accepted Him as the Messiah. Some Day. If they had accepted Him, the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 1000 years old
Ac 1:6-7
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Nowhere in those verses did Christ tell the 12 that the Kingdom thing was over. He just said that He couldn't tell them WHEN. The question asked by the 12 was valid. The earthly Kingdom belonged to Israel. Did you not see
Ac 1:3
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Did you miss the part about Jesus Christ giving the 12 a 40 day Bible concerning the Kingdom? Their question was totally valid. They knew more about the Kingdom than anyone else that has ever lived.
2- The Acts church (I prefer the proper word, assembly) started in Acts 2, at Pentecost.The very first Gentile admitted to the church was Cornelius, 8 years later. The gospel taught by the 12 and by Paul was the same Gospel of the Kingdom as Christ taught. The ONLY purpose of Acts was to get Israel to convert. The ONLY purpose of the Gifts was to provide signs and wonders to Israel, who required signs, so they might convert. The ONLY purpose of allowing Gentiles into the Jewish Church was to provoke Israel to jealousy, so they might convert. The ONLY purpose of Paul going to the Jews first is because their conversion was infinitely more important that that of the Gentiles. The purpose was certainly not to start a church. All through Acts, Israel was the Head and the Gentiles were the tail. As you can see in Rom 9:4, the Gentiles had nothing during Acts, and yet, they had more tthen than they had ever had in history, since Gen 12.
3- Eph 2:14-15 says nothing about the mystery. THE MYSTERY had been HID in God from ages and generations. The word NOW must mean Right Then. The main (and last) mystery in Acts is in Rom 16:25-26, 7 years earlier. It is impossible that these 2 mysteries are the same because the one in Romans was hid in the scriptures of the prophets and the one in Eph and Col was hid in God and was revealed to no one until Ephesians was written.
Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but NOW is made manifest to his saints:
Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
4- You said: "Acts 28 was the Jews rejecting Paul’s ministry. So he went to the Gentiles.
Peter and the others were mostly to the Jews." Totally unBiblical and absurd
How do you explain Ac 28: 25-27, where Paul pronounced the curse of Isa 6:9-10 for the 7th and last time in scripture? All of the other 6 times, Israel was blinded. Don't you think they were also blinded then? If you want see the total worthlessness today of the Jews today to God, all you have to do is look at today's Jews. How many even believe in God? Maybe 5000. That would make up a remnant. How do you explain in vs 28 that the Salvation of God was given to the Gentiles. Does that mean it was taken from the Jews. I think it was. I have come to recognize that the Salvation of God is Jesus Christ. Do the Jews today have Jesus Christ? Not so you'd notice.
To me. there's no doubt that Paul rejected Israel, by orders of God, through the continuous revelations he received directly from the Lord. Every word and every action Paul said and made was inspired by God.
5- That's true. Many of the OT saints will meet the Lord in the air and then will return with Him to the earth. The New Jerusalem, where the marriage takes place, is not the calling of anyone living today. It is all-Israel, with the Jews from the Acts church plus Gentiles grafted into Israel during Acts plus many OT saints, like Abraham and Moses. The NJ gates are named after the 12 tribes and the foundations named after the 12 apostles, who only ministered to Israel, with the only exception being Cornelius.. Peter witnessed to him for the sole purpose of paving the way to the other apostles for Paul.
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