Before Abraham was, I am

Eloy Craft said:

Wouldn't you agree that there is suggested in the titles Father, and Son, that a procession of Divine Persons exists eternally?

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Deuteronomy 6:4 can’t be forgotten.

ewq1938 said:

Yes but the human being born of Mary was begat by God the Father yet the other user denies this which puts him at odds with multiple scriptures and the Nicene creed. Error is error and that belief against the Son being the only begotten of the Father is simply wrong.

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No. They emphasize Incarnation in place of Begat to specifically protect that Eternal God, TriUne is not Questioned as Eternal at any point.

It’s a sharp semantics argument and one way is tightening on the matter to prevent misinterpretation, while the other is calm in speech for dialogue.

Eternally Begotten and in The Bosom Eternally are Turtellianesque statements that prevent the fact that God Only has One Physical Portion Of His Expression. The Son.

Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit)
Glory and Presence (The Son)
Limitless Spirit with no Boundries (The Father)

This is where the differentiation is occurring.

TheBibleIsTruth said:

the creeds are NOT the same as the Holy Bible. one of the oldest creed, known as The Old Roman Creed, which Dr Kelly, in his book, Early Christian Creeds, dates from the 2nd century A.D. reads,

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary"
(Old Roman Creed Greek and Latin Texts with English translation)

Note that it uses "only", which in the Latin text, is "unicum", which is , "one and only, unique". If it were "only begotten", then the Latin would be, "unigenitus". But this is not the case.

I get the distinct impression from your arguments, that you are not really interested in arriving at the actual truth on this, but that you have your preconceived ideas on this, which is mainly based on "creeds", and anything else is not important. There is nothing more that can be said to you on this.

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So...

Christ is the only / unique Son of God the Father in heaven.

That would accord with John 14:6, "I AM the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me".

Christ, spiritually generalizing to the (true) Church as the righteous body of believers in Jesus as the Christ Messiah, is the only / unique way to God in heaven.

Prima facie, Thayer's definition 1b appears blatantly inconsistent with all the others, 1 & 1a. To me, it seems contrived & arbitrary, quite a linguistic stretch without clear justification.

TheBibleIsTruth said:

"Jesus the Christ is the great I AM", Amen!, But so is The Father and Holy Spirit

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Are we not verging on denying the humanity of Jesus the man?

In the beginning existed God the Father and the divine Word [Logos]. The physical human form did not appear until the 6th Biblical Day (Genesis 1:24-31). The fully human nature of Jesus the man originated in the Immaculate Conception, a wondrous miracle, wrought by God, in the womb of Mary, by the divine power of the Word [Logos] through which all that was ever made was made.


The Word [Logos] indwelt, inhabited, and "tabernacled" within Jesus the man (John 1:14) from Immaculate Conception onwards. Thereby, God crafted the man into the perfect vessel for divine presence of the Holy Spirit, Whose informing knowledge empowered Christ the Messiah to Prophesy, and utter the messages of God in heaven to humanity on earth.

So powerful was the immanence of divinity within Jesus, that as the Messiah, Christ even uttered the Divine Name of God in the 1st person, "I AM" on numerous occasions! Clearly, divine power, of the Word [Logos] and Holy Spirit, from God the Father in heaven, dwelt within Jesus the man more immanently & directly than ever before or since!

Yet, though miraculously conceived, Jesus the man was fully human, with a fully human nature, albeit one in harmonious "under-standing" (hypo-stasis) with the divine powers tabernacling within him throughout his life. Thus was the fully human nature of Jesus the man united with the divine super-nature of Deity in the person of Christ the Son.

I just think it would be helpful not to read into John 1:1 so as to "hitch Jesus the man onto the divine coat-tails of the divine Word [Logos]" and wind up saying, "Jesus... is God". Yes, the Word [Logos] existed with God the Father in heaven even prior to the foundation of earth... Biblical Days before any fleshly human forms ever existed (though the same were brought about by God's divine intervention into terrestrial history).

In case anybody cares, when Jews or Muslims think that's what they hear, then they basically think 2 Thessalonians 2:3, "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Neither Jews nor Muslims will accept Jesus as the Messiah, with the fullness of Christianity, any time this Biblical week, so long as they continue to think that's what they're hearing. FYI.

I for one am not trying to "spin" Jesus Christ in any such way so as to antagonize Jews or Muslims, and so reduce the likelihood of them acknowledging Jesus as Messiah with the fullness described by Christianity.

AvgJoe said:

When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return. Although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14)...

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Erik Nelson said:

wait up -- the Divine Logos WORD was fully God (John 1:1)…

and the Divine Logos WORD became flesh, tabernacling & indwelling in the physical flesh of Jesus the man (John 1:14)…

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Who is the Word?

(John 1:1-3, 14) 1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Who is this Word? We start to find out in the very next verse.

(John 1:15) John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

Then, down in verses 29 & 30, John reveals of whom he is speaking about in verse 15, the same being the Word in verses 1-3 & 14.

(John 1:29-30) 29)The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30)This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

John bore witness of the Word (v 15). John said Jesus is the one of which he bore witness(vs 29-30). Jesus is the Word.

So,

(John 1:1, 14) 1. In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with God, and (Jesus) was God. 14. And (Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the Word. The Word is God. Jesus is God.


And in Revelation,

(Revelation 19:13) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Who is this Word of God?

Some of the attributes of the Word of God:

1) Rev. 19:12: His eyes were as flame of fire
2) Rev. 19:15: out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword
3) Rev. 19:16 : His name is KINGS OF KINDS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Who eyes were as flame of fire?
Revelation 2:18 - Jesus, the Son of God, hath eyes like unto a flame of fire.

Who has a sharp sword that goeth out of His mouth?
Revelation 1:16 - Out of Jesus' mouth went a sharp, two-edged, sword.

Who's name is KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS?
Revelation 17:14 - The Lamb is the KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS.

Who is the Lamb?
John 1:29 - Jesus is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus is The Word of God!

(Revelation 13:19) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called (Jesus).

Erik Nelson said:

I fear you are "telescoping together" and conflating Jesus the man and the Divine Logos Word. You are "squashing them together like an accordion into one"... but all of the Divine attributes, of which you are speaking, apply only to the eternal Divine Logos Word

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Question: "What is the hypostatic union?"

Answer: The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.

www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-union.html

AvgJoe said:

when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes (Philippians 2:6-8).

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Erik Nelson said:

That's an excellent passage to cite. Yet,

1. Philippians 2:6 first references Genesis 1:27, "God created man in His own image". All mankind has the "form of God" (Philip 2:6)
2. Then, Philip 2:6 next references Genesis 3:5, "you will be like God" -- whereas the first original Adam fell by the deadly sins of Greed & Pride for dominance (as did Nero and the Caesars as well as the Jewish High Priesthood), the Savior went in the exact "opposite direction", and became the ultimate "public servant"
   1. NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible -- Scholars often contrast the first Adam who, not content with being made in God’s image (Ge 1:26 – 27), wanted to become divine (Ge 3:5).... Likewise, Nero, the emperor before whose court Paul would soon be tried, wanted to be regarded as divine.

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Philippians 2:6 is not saying that Jesus is created in the image of God. No, it is saying that He is God~~~> www.biblehub.com/philippians/2-6.htm & www.biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-6.htm .

Erik Nelson said:

...but Jesus the man was not God the Father.

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Never said He was.

AvgJoe said:

But some things Jesus had apparently chosen to "give up the rights" to be privy to during His earthly ministry (see Philippians 2:5-11). Jesus, now exalted in Heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His Second Coming.

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Erik Nelson said:

Yeah, probably, you would think so... but, straight from Scripture, we don't know so

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Yes, we do know so, straight from Scripture. That's what Philippians 2:7 means when it says Jesus emptied Himself~~~> www.biblehub.com/philippians/2-7.htm .

Grip Docility said:

To be specific, @TheBibleIsTruth is ensuring that the understanding of the eternal “pre-incarnate” Son is not swept under the theological rug on accident.

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But in doing so he sweeps away the meaning of paternity as it is to eternal life.

Grip Docility said:

Deuteronomy 6:4 can’t be forgotten.

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Oneness in Being God is not divided by a procession of Persons. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father's love for the Son. The Son had to return Himself(love of the Son to the Father) to the Father so that He could send The Holy Spirit. (God is Love means Him)This process is a peek into the internal conversation of God. The Son is eternally begotten. The Father is eternally begetting. The Son is eternally knowing the Father. The Father is eternally knowing the Son. To love, one must know what is loved, and only God can love God as God is. This Love is eternally proceeding from the Father and Son. In the passage below is a statement from Jesus of eternal paternity, that proceeds from eternal knowing and giving in which Jesus is eternally begotten equal to His Father.
It begins with recognizing His Father as the Lord of Heaven and earth. Everything is given to the Son from the Father. Is this not what the Son is given by the Father in eternity? Earthly paternity is a reflection of paternity in heaven. I want to protect that from being swept away as I see it attempted in this thread. Much more understanding of Christ is necessary to be able to make definitive statements about what is not eternal life in the light of Divine Revelation.

Matthew 11:25

25 At that time Jesus said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Eloy Craft said:

But in doing so he sweeps away the meaning of paternity as it is to eternal life.

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I don’t see that. I see semantics and verbiage that simultaneously upholds paternity and eternity.

Honestly, you’re both Trinitarian and defending aspects of a doctrine that is ultimately beyond our genuine comprehension.

The dialogue on this thread is some of the best I’ve ever read on the matter.

I’m thankful to God above all and each of you for sharing. <3

ewq1938 said:

Yes but the human being born of Mary was begat by God the Father yet the other user denies this which puts him at odds with multiple scriptures and the Nicene creed. Error is error and that belief against the Son being the only begotten of the Father is simply wrong.

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I don’t see that. They noted the Virgin Birth.

However, the tension is making for some amazing dialogue.

DamianWarS said:

the dialog is found here:


Jesus makes a statement that he knows Abraham then qualifies it saying "before Abraham was, I am" in verse 58. This invoked a hostile response and the Jews he was speaking with wanted to stone him, somehow Jesus hid himself and escaped.

What are the implications of such a statement? Why did the Jews want to stone him?

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Jesus was with God in the beginning and knew Abraham. He, (at that time), was responding to their sarcasm. "You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

Jesus's rebukes, (He testfied what they did was evil), and they hated Him.

NOT ALL
Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

TheBibleIsTruth said:

the creeds are NOT the same as the Holy Bible. one of the oldest creed, known as The Old Roman Creed, which Dr Kelly, in his book, Early Christian Creeds, dates from the 2nd century A.D. reads,

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary"
(Old Roman Creed Greek and Latin Texts with English translation)

Note that it uses "only", which in the Latin text, is "unicum", which is , "one and only, unique". If it were "only begotten", then the Latin would be, "unigenitus". But this is not the case.

I get the distinct impression from your arguments, that you are not really interested in arriving at the actual truth on this, but that you have your preconceived ideas on this, which is mainly based on "creeds", and anything else is not important. There is nothing more that can be said to you on this.

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The word begotten is a word used in defense against heresies that deny Christ's divinity and heresies that deny His humanity. The word begotten balanced the faith swung to and fro by these heresies and so it is used in the Nicean creed. That the Father and Son are true Father and Son in eternity and in time and human history. The word is inherent in the concept of Being the 'only' Son of God . It symbolizes that God can be an only eternally/______ -fill in the blank yourself- Son. Son of God and Son of Man.

However a Son is eternally a Son is understood in part but there are no other words to attach to it's meaning or other words available in human language up to the task. This is an inherent problem with Divine Revelation that even Moses had to overcome. He combined known Pagan symbols to express never before known concepts he received from God. The introduction of new concepts into the human mind that consequently have no previous symbols or words to attach to them is a difficulty in communicating Divine Revelation. The word only- begotten is one of those combination words that symbolize a single concept, reducing it to one word is removing the defense against heresy it was wisely put there for.

How is it that you have faith in the authority of Scriptures but not in the creeds developed under the same authority that protects the faith expressed by both?

TheBibleIsTruth said:

for the last time I will say this. As Almighty God it is IMPOSSIBLE that Jesus Christ could ever have been "begotten" by the Father. this applies ONLY to the Incarnation in Mary.

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It is true that God the Son was never born or begotten.

"This day have I begotten Thee" -

Acts 13:33
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’

Ps 2:7 "“I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."

God sees the future as we see the past only better.

BobRyan said:

It is true that God the Son was never born or begotten.

"This day have I begotten Thee" -

Acts 13:33
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’

Ps 2:7 "“I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."

God sees the future as we see the past only better.

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These verses all refer to the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus

TheBibleIsTruth said:

These verses all refer to the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus

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How can God be a Father of God?

Eloy Craft said:

How can God be a Father of God?

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Do you believe that Jesus Christ is YHWH?

No

TheBibleIsTruth said:

These verses all refer to the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus

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The verses I quoted refer to his resurrection. The point is that God's view of the future is included in his statements in the past.

Eloy Craft said:

No

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That is your problem. Now I can understand more why you are arguing the way you are. This is a huge problem for anyone trying to understand what the Holy Bible says about the Persons of the Holy Trinity. There are a few passages in the Bible that clearly show that Jesus, like the Father, is YHWH. John 8:58 is one of them.

Jesus is in conversation with the Jews, and says to them, "If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God" (verse 54). In verse 55, Jesus says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.", which could be referring to His Appearance to Abraham in Genesis chapter 18. To this the Jews respond, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" (verse 57). Jesus' response to this is very deep and important: "prin Abraam genesthai. egô eimi". The contrast here is very clear. Jesus is saying, "before Abraham even came into existence" (so the force of the Greek grammar used); "I AM". I have ALWAYS BEEN. The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they took His words as blasphemy. They recognized that Jesus was here claiming the Eternal Name, YHWH, as spoken in Exodus: "I AM WHO I AM", for Himself, where it is evident from the passage in Exodus, that the "mal'âk" is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, in His pre-Incarnate Theophany.

The Name of Elohim in Hebrew, "Yahweh (from YHWH)", is from the Hebrew root, "hâyâh", which means, "to exist", and in YHWH, "The Eternal, Self-Existing One". In the Book of Exodus chapter 3, we have the account of Moses and the Burning Bush. The Person Who spoke to Moses from the bush, is "The Angel (mal'âk, Messenger) of the Lord". This "mal'âk", Identifies Himself as "moreover He said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God" (3:6). This same Person, Moses asks His Name (verse, 13), to which "mal'âk" replies, "’Ehyeh ’ăsher ’Ehyeh". Where we find the same Hebrew root for "YHWH" (’Ehyeh), which is best rendered into English as "I AM WHO I AM" (verse 14). The Greek version of the Hebrew Old Testament, the Septuagint, renders this Hebrew as "Eγω ειμι ο ων", literally, "I am The Eternal One".

It is very clear from the teachings of the Bible, that Jesus Christ, like God the Father, IS Almighty God, Eternal and Self-Existing, as shown from the above passages, and others. The Father is no greater than Jesus Christ in the Godhead, as they are co-equal, co-essential, and co-eternal.

So you are not a believer in the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Trinity?

BobRyan said:

The verses I quoted refer to his resurrection. The point is that God's view of the future is included in his statements in the past.

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"begotten" does not refer to being "raised" from the dead. The "begetting" is that which God the Holy Spirit did in the womb of Mary, from whom the Lord Jesus Christ was conceived, and born.

TheBibleIsTruth said:

for the last time I will say this. As Almighty God it is IMPOSSIBLE that Jesus Christ could ever have been "begotten" by the Father. this applies ONLY to the Incarnation in Mary.

Click to expand...

It is true that God the Son was never born or begotten.

"This day have I begotten Thee" -

Acts 13:33
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’

Ps 2:7 "“I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."

TheBibleIsTruth said:

"begotten" does not refer to being "raised" from the dead. The "begetting" is that which God the Holy Spirit did in the womb of Mary, from whom the Lord Jesus Christ was conceived, and born.

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The NT and OT writers are in error?? - or ??? what exactly are you proposing?