SHADOW LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT FULFILLED IN THE NEW? COL 2

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2018

bugkiller said:
Your idea about 1 Jn 3:4 is false because you ignore the first half of the sentence, specifically a four letter word

Actually no! It is God's WORD not mine or my idea so sorry I cannot take any credit for it and what John is teaching in the scripture is exactly the same as James and Paul who all agree that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

For example we read in 1 John that the reason John is writing this epistle in 1 JOHN 2:1-4 is that we SIN not. This is then followed up in v2-4 that obedience to God's commandments is proof that we know God and those who are disobedient do not know God. The CONTEXT shown here is v1 these things I write unto you that you sin not. This is the reason fo John's writing. 1 John 3 then moves on to 1 John 3:4 which says;

1 JOHN 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So with the CONTEXT being that we SIN NOT (1 John 2:1) and that those who do so do not know God (1 JOHN 2:3-4) we move on in....

1 JOHN 3:5-10 [5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6], Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

so starting with v4 SIN is breaking God's LAW. The topic moves back into SIN and how those who SIN have not seen God or know him. This parallels back to 1 John 2:1-4 these things I write unto you that you sin not (v1) then into 1 John 2:3-4 those who break God's LAW (SIN 1 John 3:4) referenced in 1 John 2:3-4 have not seen him or know him.

Continuing in 3v7 which is another refernce back to 1 John 2:3-4. Little children let know one decieve you (2v4 says he that says he knows God and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him). 3v7 let no one deceive you he that does righteousness is righteous reference is back to 2v3 by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

Continuing 3v8 he that commits SIN is of the Devil reference back to sin and breaking God's commandments (LAW). v9 continues whosoever is born of God does not commit sin reference back to those who follow God do not break God's commandments and do not sin. This is followed by v10 sumarising what was discussed previously. In this obedience or disobedience (SIN) the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil.

So the context here is SIN. John is writing to us that we sin not. Sin determines if someone is following God or not following God.

..................

Now that we have looked at the context let's look at what other writers say sin is.

PAUL says...

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here we have a direct reference in the scriptures from PAUL agreeing with JOHN that SIN is breaking God's Commandments with a direct quote from the 10 Commandments on coveting which is the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17).

There is no guessing here what we are talking about the reference is to the 10 Commandments and sin is breaking them.

So Paul is in agreement with John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN

Links to............

ROMANS 3:20 [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Let's look at what James says..

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW. James is referening the 6th and 7th Commandment from the 10 Commandments so no need to guess here what James is talking about. James also says that if we break ANY of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN

So JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

Sorry BK JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all disagree with your teaching and are all in agreement together that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments. This is further demonstrated by showing the CONTEXT of 1 JOHN 2 and 1 JOHN 3 that says SIN is the topic of conversation which is over obedience and disobedience to God's LAW.

Hope this helps..

bugkiller said:
Rom 7:7 does not say we are currently bound to or by sin.

This is confusing, where have I ever said Romans 7:7 says we are bound to or by sin? Romans 7:7 says God's LAW is NOT sin and that it only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is.

bugkiller said:
The verse is is the past tense about both the flesh and sin. Rom 8:1 plainly says we are in Christ Jesus expressed in present tense. This is not the flesh as the next few verses of chapter 8 indicate.

If you have repented and confessed your sins and believe the Gospel then you are not in SIN as you have been forgiven. If you are continuing in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN however then you are still in your sins because you have not been forgiven because your still living in the flesh and not walking in the Spirit.

bugkiller said:
Jam 2:9-11 starts of with something not in the law as I said earlier. The naming of items following v 9 are proof James is talking about the 10 Cs as being the law. There is nothing in James requiring the keeping of the law.

Sorry BK this makes absolutely no sense at all. You may need to re-word it so it makes sense? Loving your neighbore is a summary of God's commandments toward your fellow man and is referenced from Leviticus 19:18; referenced by Jesus Matthew 22:26-40. Paul in Romans 13:8-10 and James 2-8-12 all referencing God's LAW (10 Commandments).

bugkiller said:
Ex 20:8-11 is addressed to Israel only. This is indicated by who Moses was told to call in chapter 19 and Ex 31:13, 17. Since it isn't addressing the world or the Christian, we violate nothing.

Well that is not true at all BK, God's ISRAEL are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW the Word of GOD. If you are not a part of God's Israel then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT (Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:10-12). Gentiles are now grafted in (Romans 11:16-27).

Now BK, there is many scriptures on this topic and we have shared them already we could also mention GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13 but I think you did not accept these scriptures so we may need to agree to disagree as to who God's Israel is in the NEW COVENANT. However only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

bugkiller said:
Rom 7:6 says we are delivered from the law. This is not out of context or agreement with the rest of the chapter.

I think we have had this conversation elswhere where you where shown your interpretation of v6 saying that God's LAW is abolished is out of context both within chapter and within scripture.

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT HERE Click me.

bugkiller said:
Worshiping on Sunday is no more a tradition of man than your amended sabbath keeping.

Sorry BK, there is not one scripture in the entire bible that says we are to keep Sunday as a holy day. God's WORD however says in the 4th Commandment we are to keep the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH as a holy day in remeberance of the God of creation and that if we break ANY of God's Commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN. All those who KNOWINGLY practice SIN will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN and do not KNOW God.

The rest of your post is only your words and needs no response.

Thanks for sharing.

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually no! It is God's WORD not mine or my idea so sorry I cannot take any credit for it and what John is teaching in the scripture is exactly the same as James and Paul who all agree that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

For example we read in 1 John that the reason John is writing this epistle in 1 JOHN 2:1-4 is that we SIN not. This is then followed up in v2-4 that obedience to God's commandments is proof that we know God and those who are disobedient do not know God. The CONTEXT shown here is v1 these things I write unto you that you sin not. This is the reason fo John's writing. 1 John 3 then moves on to 1 John 3:4 which says;

1 JOHN 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So with the CONTEXT being that we SIN NOT (1 John 2:1) and that those who do so do not know God (1 JOHN 2:3-4) we move on in....

1 JOHN 3:5-10 [5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6], Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

so starting with v4 SIN is breaking God's LAW. The topic moves back into SIN and how those who SIN have not seen God or know him. This parallels back to 1 John 2:1-4 these things I write unto you that you sin not (v1) then into 1 John 2:3-4 those who break God's LAW (SIN 1 John 3:4) referenced in 1 John 2:3-4 have not seen him or know him.

Continuing in 3v7 which is another refernce back to 1 John 2:3-4. Little children let know one decieve you (2v4 says he that says he knows God and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him). 3v7 let no one deceive you he that does righteousness is righteous reference is back to 2v3 by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

Continuing 3v8 he that commits SIN is of the Devil reference back to sin and breaking God's commandments (LAW). v9 continues whosoever is born of God does not commit sin reference back to those who follow God do not break God's commandments and do not sin. This is followed by v10 sumarising what was discussed previously. In this obedience or disobedience (SIN) the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil.

So the context here is SIN. John is writing to us that we sin not. Sin determines if someone is following God or not following God.

..................

Now that we have looked at the context let's look at what other writers say sin is.

PAUL says...

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here we have a direct reference in the scriptures from PAUL agreeing with JOHN that SIN is breaking God's Commandments with a direct quote from the 10 Commandments on coveting which is the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17).

There is no guessing here what we are talking about the reference is to the 10 Commandments and sin is breaking them.

So Paul is in agreement with John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN

Links to............

ROMANS 3:20 [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Let's look at what James says..

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW. James is referening the 6th and 7th Commandment from the 10 Commandments so no need to guess here what James is talking about. James also says that if we break ANY of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN

So JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

Sorry BK JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all disagree with your teaching and are all in agreement together that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments. This is further demonstrated by showing the CONTEXT of 1 JOHN 2 and 1 JOHN 3 that says SIN is the topic of conversation which is over obedience and disobedience to God's LAW.

Hope this helps..

This is confusing, where have I ever said Romans 7:7 says we are bound to or by sin? Romans 7:7 says God's LAW is NOT sin and that it only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is.

If you have repented and confessed your sins and believe the Gospel then you are not in SIN as you have been forgiven. If you are continuing in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN however then you are still in your sins because you have not been forgiven because your still living in the flesh and not walking in the Spirit.

Sorry BK this makes absolutely no sense at all. You may need to re-word it so it makes sense? Loving your neighbore is a summary of God's commandments toward your fellow man and is referenced from Leviticus 19:18; referenced by Jesus Matthew 22:26-40. Paul in Romans 13:8-10 and James 2-8-12 all referencing God's LAW (10 Commandments).

Well that is not true at all BK, God's ISRAEL are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW the Word of GOD. If you are not a part of God's Israel then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT (Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:10-12). Gentiles are now grafted in (Romans 11:16-27).

Now BK, there is many scriptures on this topic and we have shared them already we could also mention GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13 but I think you did not accept these scriptures so we may need to agree to disagree as to who God's Israel is in the NEW COVENANT. However only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

I think we have had this conversation elswhere where you where shown your interpretation of v6 saying that God's LAW is abolished is out of context both within chapter and within scripture.

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT HERE Click me.

Sorry BK, there is not one scripture in the entire bible that says we are to keep Sunday as a holy day. God's WORD however says in the 4th Commandment we are to keep the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH as a holy day in remeberance of the God of creation and that if we break ANY of God's Commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN. All those who KNOWINGLY practice SIN will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN and do not KNOW God.

The rest of your post is only your words and needs no response.

Thanks for sharing.

The first letter of John never mentions that the commandments are the specific, ten commandments. There is no argument that sin is also the breaking of the law. We would be very foolish if we inserted the number ten into the text, so that every occurrence of the word 'commandment', became the 'ten commandments'.

For example here is a direct commandment given by God.

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 3:23)

We note that this commandment above is not one of the ten, we also notice that to disobey this commandment, is a very deadly sin.

Further, we were also commanded to love others, which is also not one of the ten commandments.

...and love one another, just as He commanded us. (1 John 3:23)

Failing to love others means you don't know Jesus, if you don't know Jesus then you are not saved.

There are a multitude of sins in the law and also outside of the law. Anyone who claimed that sin was only breaking the ten commandments, would be ignoring the bulk of the scripture.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2018

klutedavid said:
The first letter of John never mentions that the commandments are the specific, ten commandments. There is no argument that sin is also the breaking of the law. We would be very foolish if we inserted the number ten into the text, so that every occurrence of the word 'commandment', became the 'ten commandments'.

For example here is a direct commandment given by God.

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 3:23)

We note that this commandment above is not one of the ten, we also notice that to disobey this commandment, is a very deadly sin.

Further, we were also commanded to love others, which is also not one of the ten commandments.

...and love one another, just as He commanded us. (1 John 3:23)

Failing to love others means you don't know Jesus, if you don't know Jesus then you are not saved.

There are a multitude of sins in the law and also outside of the law. Anyone who claimed that sin was only breaking the ten commandments, would be ignoring the bulk of the scripture.

Hello David,

I have never argued that SIN is only breaking God's 10 Commandments.

This is going against the scriptures that say to him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin and also whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

All I am sharing from God's WORD is that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

As shown earlier, James, Paul and John all agree that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

PAUL says...

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here we have a direct reference in the scriptures from PAUL agreeing with JOHN that SIN is breaking God's Commandments with a direct quote from the 10 Commandments on coveting which is the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17).

There is no guessing here what we are talking about the reference is to the 10 Commandments and sin is breaking them.

So Paul is in agreement with John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN

Links to............

ROMANS 3:20 [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Let's look at what James says..

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW. James is referening the 6th and 7th Commandment from the 10 Commandments so no need to guess here what James is talking about. James also says that if we break ANY of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN

So JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

..............

I do not mind if you want to discuss 1 JOHN 3:23 as once again the CONTEXT here is 1 JOHN 3:3-15 which is once agian SIN which James, Paul and John all agree is breaking of ANY of the 10 Commandments even citing specific examples from the 10 Commandments.

* Paul cites coveteous which is the 10 th Commandment from Exodus 20:17;

*James cites both adultery and murder which is the 6th-7th from Exodus 20:13-14

*John cites murder in v15 after defining SIN in the same way that Paul and James does.

..............

Looking at CONTEXT.

For example we read in 1 John that the reason John is writing this epistle in 1 JOHN 2:1-4 is that we SIN not. This is then followed up in v2-4 that obedience to God's commandments is proof that we know God and those who are disobedient do not know God. The CONTEXT shown here is v1 these things I write unto you that you sin not. This is the reason fo John's writing. 1 John 3 then moves on to 1 John 3:4 which says;

1 JOHN 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So with the CONTEXT being that we SIN NOT (1 John 2:1) and that those who do so do not know God (1 JOHN 2:3-4) we move on in....

1 JOHN 3:5-10 [5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6], Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

so starting with v4 SIN is breaking God's LAW. The topic moves back into SIN and how those who SIN have not seen God or know him. This parallels back to 1 John 2:1-4 these things I write unto you that you sin not (v1) then into 1 John 2:3-4 those who break God's LAW (SIN 1 John 3:4) referenced in 1 John 2:3-4 have not seen him or know him.

Continuing in 3v7 which is another refernce back to 1 John 2:3-4. Little children let know one decieve you (2v4 says he that says he knows God and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him). 3v7 let no one deceive you he that does righteousness is righteous reference is back to 2v3 by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

Continuing 3v8 he that commits SIN is of the Devil reference back to sin and breaking God's commandments (LAW). v9 continues whosoever is born of God does not commit sin reference back to those who follow God do not break God's commandments and do not sin. This is followed by v10 sumarising what was discussed previously. In this obedience or disobedience (SIN) the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil.

So the context here is SIN. John is writing to us that we sin not. Sin determines if someone is following God or not following God.

.................

YOU CANNOT HAVE LOVE AND FAITH WITHOUT OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WORD

You cannot have LOVE without obedience to God's LAW because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in those who BELIEVE (Romans 13:8-10) and is why Jesus says; on these two commandments of LOVE hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:26-40).

God's MERCY is to those who LOVE him and seek him in repentance and forgiveness.

EXODUS 20:6 [6], And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

PROVERBS 28:13 [13], He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whosoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

ACTS 8:22 [22], Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

This is why Jesus says..

JOHN 14:15 [15] If you LOVE me keep my commandments.

..................

Sorry David which ever way you want to look at it God's WORD makes it very clear that if we break any of God's 10 Commandments we commit SIN.

.......................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

The7thColporteur · May 29, 2018

klutedavid said:
... There is no argument that sin is also the breaking of the law. ...

Still?

listed · May 29, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Ok. When Jesus was speaking on the mounts, to whom were the messages for?

Huh?

listed · May 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello tall, I was responding to BK's statement that Matthew 5 was not talking about the 10 Commandments which I disagreed with by quoting Matthew 5:17-28. Do you disagree this is in reference to God's 10 Commandments? Sorry I do not understand your negative response to to the correction that was posted.

I don't think buggy said the ten commandments were not mentioned. He did note Jesus taught something they do not teach with the "but I say..." phrase.

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

Thanks for the reply.

I have never argued that SIN is only breaking God's 10 Commandments. This is going against the scriptures that say to him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin and also whatsoever is not of faith is sin. All I am sharing from God's WORD is that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

Why shorten the definition of sin from breaking the law, down to just breaking the ten commandments? I do not see the reason to reduce the definition.

As shown earlier, James, Paul and John all agree that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

Paul most strongly would include other laws in that list, so would John and James.

PAUL says...
ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here we have a direct reference in the scriptures from PAUL agreeing with JOHN that SIN is breaking God's Commandments with a direct quote from the 10 Commandments on coveting which is the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17).

There is no guessing here what we are talking about the reference is to the 10 Commandments and sin is breaking them.

Correction, sin is breaking the law which includes the ten commandments.

Let's look at what James says..

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW. James is referening the 6th and 7th Commandment from the 10 Commandments so no need to guess here what James is talking about. James also says that if we break ANY of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN

Here is where your reduction in the definition of sin and the consequence is much clearer.

This is what James actually says.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin

You must love equally, you cannot respect rank or privilege.

James also adds.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

You cannot reduce the law down to just ten commandments, that is not what James is talking about here. You will keep the entire law according to James, any breach is sin!

So JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

No they never say that, all three authors comment on breaking the law not just the ten commandments.

Whoever respects persons is committing sin, that is what James was arguing in his letter.

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Still?

Still what?

Sin is breaking the law and that includes kidnapping, sorcery, civil obedience, e.t.c.

Never abbreviate the law; as the law and the prophets was written for that very purpose, to explain what rebellion against God is all about. To encompass the breadth of what sin really means!

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2018

listed said:
I don't think buggy said the ten commandments were not mentioned. He did note Jesus taught something they do not teach with the "but I say..." phrase.

Makes no difference to what was already posted.

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2018

klutedavid said:
Thanks for the reply.
Why shorten the definition of sin from breaking the law, down to just breaking the ten commandments? I do not see the reason to reduce the definition.

Hello David,

The definition of sin has never been shortened. It has always been breaking any of the commandments of God. The focus of Romans, James and John is to show the main definition of sin has always been breaking God's 10 Commandments. This has already been the main definition of sin in both the OLD and NEW COVENANT and the purpose of the 10 Commandments in both Covenants is to give a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20).

The other definitions are only an expansion of the 10 Commandment that breaking God's LAW or any of God's commandments or word is SIN.

Also it is applied to make the main point when used that God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments and just like any of the other 10 Commandments if you break it you stand guilty before God of committing sin.

klutedavid said:
Paul most strongly would include other laws in that list, so would John and James.

Did I say any differently? What other laws are you talking about LOVE and FAITH are connected to obedience to God's WORD and fulfilling of God's LAW as shown in the previous posts.

klutedavid said:
LGW wrote: PAUL says...
ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Here we have a direct reference in the scriptures from PAUL agreeing with JOHN that SIN is breaking God's Commandments with a direct quote from the 10 Commandments on coveting which is the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17). There is no guessing here what we are talking about the reference is to the 10 Commandments and sin is breaking them.

Click to expand...

Correction, sin is breaking the law which includes the ten commandments.

Correction, NO! PAUL, JAMES and JOHN are all talking about sin as breaking God's 10 Commandments even quoting various of the 10 Commandments.

* Paul cites coveteous v7 which is the 10 th Commandment from Exodus 20:17;
*James cites both adultery and murder v9-11 which is the 6th-7th from Exodus 20:13-14
*John cites murder in v15 after defining SIN in the same way that Paul and James does.

klutedavid said:
Let's look at what James says..

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW. James is referening the 6th and 7th Commandment from the 10 Commandments so no need to guess here what James is talking about. James also says that if we break ANY of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN

Click to expand...

Here is where your reduction in the definition of sin and the consequence is much clearer.
This is what James actually says. You must love equally, you cannot respect rank or privilege. James also adds. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. You cannot reduce the law down to just ten commandments, that is not what James is talking about here. You will keep the entire law according to James, any breach is sin!

It is not a reduction of the definition of sin. It is God's deinition of what sin is and that is breaking any of God's Commandments is SIN.

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Here is ALL of what James says and much of it you have left out of your post...

JAMES 2:8-11
[8], If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.

James is saying if you love someone you will keep the Commandments which are an expression of LOVE to your neighbore. This was well known and taught in the OLD COVENANT and the two great commandments of LOVE can be found in Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5.

This is what Jesus was quoting when he was talking about the two great commandments...

MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36], Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

This is the kep message that James is highlighting in James 2:8-11. If you are having respect to persons you are breaking God's commandments.

This is further demonstrated by PAUL in Romans 13...

ROMANS 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
[9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul is agreeing with Jesus and James that the two great Commandments of LOVE are summing up your duty of LOVE as being expressed by fulfilling (doing) God's 10 Commandments.

Whatever way you wish to spin it. God's WORD is very clear that you cannot have LOVE to God or your neighbor if you are breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments because obedience is an expression of LOVE to GOD and man. God's Word disagrees with you here.

klutedavid said:
LGW write: So JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

Click to expand...

No they never say that, all three authors comment on breaking the law not just the ten commandments.

So in your view James, Paul and John are all mistaken when they were quoting the 10 Commandments and the scriptures in Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; James 2:8-11 and 1 John 3:4 were not talking about the 10 Commandmnent?

* Paul cites coveteous v7 which is the 10 th Commandment from Exodus 20:17;
* James cites both adultery and murder v9-11 which is the 6th-7th from Exodus 20:13-14
* John cites murder in v15 after defining SIN in the same way that Paul and James does.

Seems God's WORD disagrees with you here David no matter which way you try to interrept the scriptures.

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

Hello LGW.

The definition of sin has never been shortened. It has always been breaking any commandment of God.

No LGW, the scripture does not say that sin is breaking the commandments, the scripture says sin is breaking THE LAW.

The focus of Romans, James and John is to show the main definition of sin has always been breaking God's 10 Commandments.

No LGW, the authors use simple and obvious sins that the readers will understand.

This has already been the main definition of sin in both the OLD and NEW COVENANT and the purpose of the 10 Commandments in both Covenants is to give a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20).

That is your interpretation, that is not what the text states. The verse from Romans says, 'the law', it does not say commandments. I will now prove for all time; that Romans actually says, 'the law'.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Your attempt to alter the text has been noted.

The other definitions are only an expansion of the 10 Commandment that breaking God's LAW or any of God's commandments or word is SIN.

That is your interpretation of the text, you must understand that you are altering the text. The text always states, 'the law', the examples of law breaking usually are simple, and well known commandments.

Also it is applied to make the main point when used that

God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments and just like any of the other 10 Commandments if you break it you stand guilty before God of committing sin.

In all honesty LGW, the scripture has never punished any Gentile for Sabbath breaking. In principle, because the Gentiles were never seen in the scripture to be under the law.

Did I say any differently? What other laws are you talking about LOVE and FAITH are connected to obedience to God's WORD and fulfilling of God's LAW as shown in the previous posts.

What other laws am I talking about?

Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these.

This is an endless list of course.

Your desperately trying to condense an inexhaustible list of sins into ten commandments. That is not what the scripture states.

Your interpreting the scripture and directly changing the phrase, 'the law', into the phrase, 'the ten commandments'.

Your doing it right in front of me and you expect me not to notice?

SIN IS BREAKING THE LAW and that includes breaking the ten commandments. Why don't you just admit that you alter the text, to fit your interpretation. I just read the text and I do not convert the phrase, 'the law', into the phrase, 'the ten commandments'.

Why won't you admit to changing the text?

LoveGodsWord · May 29, 2018

klutedavid said:
The definition of sin has never been shortened. It has always been breaking any commandment of God.

Click to expand...

Hello LGW. No LGW, the scripture does not say that sin is breaking the commandments, the scripture says sin is breaking THE LAW.

Sorry David your point has not basis in truth. Your trying to argue that because the scritpure does not say commandments but law then it is not referring to God's 10 Commandments which is God's LAW. Your argument falls to pieces further as Paul, James and John all quote references from God's 10 Commandments (coveteous, adultery and murder) to make it very clear what they are talking about. God's WORD does indeed disagree with your teaching.

klutedavid said:
LGW wrote: The focus of Romans, James and John is to show the main definition of sin has always been breaking God's 10 Commandments.

Click to expand...

No LGW, the authors use simple and obvious sins that the readers will understand.

Your argumnent here makes no sense. Are you saying that SIN is not breaking God's 10 Commandments? This is all that is being highlighted to drive the point home that the 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments and breaking it just like any of the other 10 is SIN. Those who continue in KNOWN unrepentant sin will not enter in to God's Kingdom.

klutedavid said:
LGW wrote: This has already been the main definition of sin in both the OLD and NEW COVENANT and the purpose of the 10 Commandments in both Covenants is to give a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20).

Click to expand...

That is your interpretation, that is not what the text states. The verse from Romans says, 'the law', it does not say commandments. I will now prove for all time; that Romans actually says, 'the law'. Romans 3:20 Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.Your attempt to alter the text has been noted.

Sorry David, it is not my interpretation. That is what the scriptures say. These are God's WORD not mine. PAUL, JAMES and JOHN all agree that breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments is SIN. This has already been demonstrated through the scriptures in posts # 321; post # 323; and post # 330 all linked.

You have choosen to ignore the scriptures that disagree with your teaching despite Paul, James and John all stating specifically that they are talking about God's 10 Commandments and citing specific commandments from *Exodus 20:1-17.

You are free to believe as you wish David your salvation is between you and God. I do not judge you. I have altered nothing except provide God's WORD you have chosen to ignore what is sent only as a help to you. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the traditions and teachings of men that break the commandments of God.

klutedavid said:
In all honesty LGW, the scripture has never punished any Gentile for Sabbath breaking. In principle, because the Gentiles were never seen in the scripture to be under the law.

The same argument can be made for those who murder, steal, commit adultery. Yet God's WORD teaches those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN because they do not know God. (Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4)

klutedavid said:
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these.

Galations 5:18-19 Is only expanding on God's LAW (10 commandments). If you are led by God's Spirit you will not be breaking God's Commandments. The scriptures are very clear that none have God's Spirit while breaking any of God's Commandments neither do they know God (Acts 5:32; 2:38; 3:19; 8:22; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Hebrews 10:26-27)

klutedavid said:
Your desperately trying to condense an inexhaustible list of sins into ten commandments. That is not what the scripture states.

Well that is not true at all David. I have already provided scripture showing what sin is and these scriptures say that sin is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

Your only trying to make a strawman argument to say something that am not talking about or discussing. You have yet to respond in detail to the posts and scriptures already provided to you and the ones you do respond to ignore the whole scripture quoted.

You pull out sections of a scripture and ignore the rest to put your own interpretation on the scripture and ignore the other parts within the scripture that disagree with your teaching.

This has been demonstrated in this post as well as posts # 321; post # 323; and post # 330 all linked which disagree with your teaching.

klutedavid said:
Your interpreting the scripture and directly changing the phrase, 'the law', into the phrase, 'the ten commandments'. Your doing it right in front of me and you expect me not to notice?

Not at all Your trying to argue that because the scritpure does not say commandments but law then it is not referring to God's 10 Commandments which is God's LAW. Your argument falls to pieces further as Paul, James and John all quote references from God's 10 Commandments (coveteous, adultery and murder) to make it very clear what they are talking about. God's WORD does indeed disagree with your teaching.

klutedavid said:
SIN IS BREAKING THE LAW and that includes breaking the ten commandments. Why don't you just admit that you alter the text, to fit your interpretation. I just read the text and I do not convert the phrase, 'the law', into the phrase, 'the ten commandments'. Why won't you admit to changing the text?

Nothing has been altered. You have been provided God's WORD. It disagrees with your teaching and tradtions that break the commandments of God. As mentioned earlier your making a mute argument.

Your trying to argue that because the scritpure does not say commandments but law then it is not referring to God's 10 Commandments which is God's LAW. Your argument falls to pieces further as Paul, James and John all quote references from God's 10 Commandments (coveteous, adultery and murder) to make it very clear what they are talking about.

Sorry David, God's WORD does indeed disagree with your teaching. Maybe you should pray about it. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

The7thColporteur · May 29, 2018

klutedavid said:
Still what?

Sin is breaking the law and that includes kidnapping, sorcery, civil obedience, e.t.c.

Never abbreviate the law; as the law and the prophets was written for that very purpose, to explain what rebellion against God is all about. To encompass the breadth of what sin really means!

Does it [sin, transgression of the law] include sabbath-breaking, still?

The7thColporteur · May 29, 2018

listed said:
Huh?

Jesus spoke at Mt. Sinai, and on the Mt. of blessing. The mounts. To whom was Jesus speaking?

bugkiller · May 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually no! It is God's WORD not mine or my idea so sorry I cannot take any credit for it and what John is teaching in the scripture is exactly the same as James and Paul who all agree that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

For example we read in 1 John that the reason John is writing this epistle in 1 JOHN 2:1-4 is that we SIN not. This is then followed up in v2-4 that obedience to God's commandments is proof that we know God and those who are disobedient do not know God. The CONTEXT shown here is v1 these things I write unto you that you sin not. This is the reason fo John's writing. 1 John 3 then moves on to 1 John 3:4 which says;

1 JOHN 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Please explain the bolded red letters.

So with the CONTEXT being that we SIN NOT (1 John 2:1) and that those who do so do not know God (1 JOHN 2:3-4) we move on in....

1 JOHN 3:5-10 [5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6], Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

so starting with v4 SIN is breaking God's LAW. The topic moves back into SIN and how those who SIN have not seen God or know him. This parallels back to 1 John 2:1-4 these things I write unto you that you sin not (v1) then into 1 John 2:3-4 those who break God's LAW (SIN 1 John 3:4) referenced in 1 John 2:3-4 have not seen him or know him.

Thanks for the interlude. Now back to the verse of contention. By God's Law do you mean only the 10 Cs? I do not think that is what I Jn 3:4 says. It clearly says also. That means sin is also something else opposed to exclusive. Besides that your idea violates Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:19.

Continuing in 3v7 which is another refernce back to 1 John 2:3-4. Little children let know one decieve you (2v4 says he that says he knows God and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him). 3v7 let no one deceive you he that does righteousness is righteous reference is back to 2v3 by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

What is John saying God's commandments are? (hint I Jn 3:23)

Continuing 3v8 he that commits SIN is of the Devil reference back to sin and breaking God's commandments (LAW). v9 continues whosoever is born of God does not commit sin reference back to those who follow God do not break God's commandments and do not sin. This is followed by v10 sumarising what was discussed previously. In this obedience or disobedience (SIN) the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil.

The sin you have in mind is violation of the 4th commandment which is no longer in force as promised. The NC is the current covenant according to Jesus (LK 22:20). In this NC there is no requirement to keep the 7th day sabbath.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually no! It is God's WORD not mine or my idea so sorry I cannot take any credit for it and what John is teaching in the scripture is exactly the same as James and Paul who all agree that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

For example we read in 1 John that the reason John is writing this epistle in 1 JOHN 2:1-4 is that we SIN not. This is then followed up in v2-4 that obedience to God's commandments is proof that we know God and those who are disobedient do not know God. The CONTEXT shown here is v1 these things I write unto you that you sin not. This is the reason fo John's writing. 1 John 3 then moves on to 1 John 3:4 which says;

1 JOHN 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So with the CONTEXT being that we SIN NOT (1 John 2:1) and that those who do so do not know God (1 JOHN 2:3-4) we move on in....

1 JOHN 3:5-10 [5], And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6], Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

so starting with v4 SIN is breaking God's LAW. The topic moves back into SIN and how those who SIN have not seen God or know him. This parallels back to 1 John 2:1-4 these things I write unto you that you sin not (v1) then into 1 John 2:3-4 those who break God's LAW (SIN 1 John 3:4) referenced in 1 John 2:3-4 have not seen him or know him.

Continuing in 3v7 which is another refernce back to 1 John 2:3-4. Little children let know one decieve you (2v4 says he that says he knows God and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him). 3v7 let no one deceive you he that does righteousness is righteous reference is back to 2v3 by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

Continuing 3v8 he that commits SIN is of the Devil reference back to sin and breaking God's commandments (LAW). v9 continues whosoever is born of God does not commit sin reference back to those who follow God do not break God's commandments and do not sin. This is followed by v10 sumarising what was discussed previously. In this obedience or disobedience (SIN) the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil.

So the context here is SIN. John is writing to us that we sin not. Sin determines if someone is following God or not following God.

..................

Now that we have looked at the context let's look at what other writers say sin is.

PAUL says...

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here we have a direct reference in the scriptures from PAUL agreeing with JOHN that SIN is breaking God's Commandments with a direct quote from the 10 Commandments on coveting which is the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17).

There is no guessing here what we are talking about the reference is to the 10 Commandments and sin is breaking them.

So Paul is in agreement with John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN

Links to............

ROMANS 3:20 [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Let's look at what James says..

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW. James is referening the 6th and 7th Commandment from the 10 Commandments so no need to guess here what James is talking about. James also says that if we break ANY of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN

So JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

Sorry BK JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all disagree with your teaching and are all in agreement together that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments. This is further demonstrated by showing the CONTEXT of 1 JOHN 2 and 1 JOHN 3 that says SIN is the topic of conversation which is over obedience and disobedience to God's LAW.

Hope this helps..

This is confusing, where have I ever said Romans 7:7 says we are bound to or by sin? Romans 7:7 says God's LAW is NOT sin and that it only gives us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is.

If you have repented and confessed your sins and believe the Gospel then you are not in SIN as you have been forgiven. If you are continuing in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN however then you are still in your sins because you have not been forgiven because your still living in the flesh and not walking in the Spirit.

Sorry BK this makes absolutely no sense at all. You may need to re-word it so it makes sense? Loving your neighbore is a summary of God's commandments toward your fellow man and is referenced from Leviticus 19:18; referenced by Jesus Matthew 22:26-40. Paul in Romans 13:8-10 and James 2-8-12 all referencing God's LAW (10 Commandments).

Well that is not true at all BK, God's ISRAEL are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW the Word of GOD. If you are not a part of God's Israel then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT (Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:10-12). Gentiles are now grafted in (Romans 11:16-27).

Now BK, there is many scriptures on this topic and we have shared them already we could also mention GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13 but I think you did not accept these scriptures so we may need to agree to disagree as to who God's Israel is in the NEW COVENANT. However only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

I think we have had this conversation elswhere where you where shown your interpretation of v6 saying that God's LAW is abolished is out of context both within chapter and within scripture.

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT HERE Click me.

Sorry BK, there is not one scripture in the entire bible that says we are to keep Sunday as a holy day. God's WORD however says in the 4th Commandment we are to keep the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH as a holy day in remeberance of the God of creation and that if we break ANY of God's Commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN. All those who KNOWINGLY practice SIN will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN and do not KNOW God.

The rest of your post is only your words and needs no response.

Thanks for sharing.

You are really stuck in your churches doctrine. I have not ever denied your referenced verses from Romans, Galatians and Colossians. None of them say what you want them to say. You can parse them or give commentary (yours or others) to try and support your theology if you like. Parsing them will only support my theology.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello David,

I have never argued that SIN is only breaking God's 10 Commandments.

I read every word you post and do not recall you ever posting about other laws besides the 4th commandment when quoting the last half of I Jn 3:4. IOW your intention is always getting compliance to the 4th commandment. Only recently have you posted the whole verse and bolding the last half. That is effectively quoting only half of the verse when you relate it to the 4th commandment. You only talk about other commandments as a distraction and to try an prove we keep some of the 10 Cs. I have always said there is no such thing as obedience by incidence.

This is going against the scriptures that say to him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin and also whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

All I am sharing from God's WORD is that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

No problem except you claim against the verse of discussion sin is only violation of the law. You have to claim Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:19 are false to support your idea.

As shown earlier, James, Paul and John all agree that SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

PAUL says...

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known SIN, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here we have a direct reference in the scriptures from PAUL agreeing with JOHN that SIN is breaking God's Commandments with a direct quote from the 10 Commandments on coveting which is the 10th commandment (Exodus 20:17).

That is very true. What is also very true is neither are requiring obligation to them, especially the 4th.

There is no guessing here what we are talking about the reference is to the 10 Commandments and sin is breaking them.

So Paul is in agreement with John also telling us that SIN is breaking God's commandments and uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN

Links to............

ROMANS 3:20 [20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Let's look at what James says..

JAMES 2:8-11 [8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: [9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW. James is referening the 6th and 7th Commandment from the 10 Commandments so no need to guess here what James is talking about. James also says that if we break ANY of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God in SIN

So JAMES, PAUL and JOHN all agree that SIN is breaking ANY of God's 10 Commandments.

If we were obligated to them, indeed you would have a point. The Christian is not obligated to the law because we have been delivered from the law and told is it foolish to return or go to the law after having the Spirit.

..............

I do not mind if you want to discuss 1 JOHN 3:23 as once again the CONTEXT here is 1 JOHN 3:3-15 which is once agian SIN which James, Paul and John all agree is breaking of ANY of the 10 Commandments even citing specific examples from the 10 Commandments.

* Paul cites coveteous which is the 10 th Commandment from Exodus 20:17;

*James cites both adultery and murder which is the 6th-7th from Exodus 20:13-14

*John cites murder in v15 after defining SIN in the same way that Paul and James does.

Indeed those things are sin. None of you passages say anything about the 4th commandment. So you try by those verses to hood wink us into the law, specifically the 4th by your insinuation we keep other commandments. I ask you again how can anyone be in violation of the named commandments if they are compliant with -

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Jn 13

I do not believe this leaves you with a case.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 29, 2018

listed said:
I don't think buggy said the ten commandments were not mentioned. He did note Jesus taught something they do not teach with the "but I say..." phrase.

You are correct.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Makes no difference to what was already posted.

Yes it does.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 29, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello David,

The definition of sin has never been shortened. It has always been breaking any commandment of God. The focus of Romans, James and John is to show the main definition of sin has always been breaking God's 10 Commandments. This has already been the main definition of sin in both the OLD and NEW COVENANT and the purpose of the 10 Commandments in both Covenants is to give a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20).

This is clearly not Paul's focus with such passages as -

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Gal 4

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, I Tim 1

bugkiller

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