Messianics who preach circumcision

Hoshiyya said:

too much penile concern. how would you even know if a friend of yours, a fellow believer or a religious figure is circumcised or not? you shouldn't even know that.

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That is because it has nothing to do with anyone else.
Like salvation, it is personal between a man and Yahweh.

pat34lee said:

That is because it has nothing to do with anyone else.
Like salvation, it is personal between a man and Yahweh.

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Circumcision might be a personal issue among the MJ, but it is a community rule among us Jews. Why? The commandment applies to individuals who are unable to make a choice--children.

Then there are those who were circumcised as standard medical practice. Some Torah-hating Christian say that those people are obliged to the whole Torah.

CherubRam said:

You are making another false allegation. The Sabbath and moral commands remain. It was the priesthood that was changed and the festivals done away with. To say it is not so is Anti-Christ.

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I disagree because at least some of the feasts are memorials of the Abrahamic covenant and the fulfilment of those promises in Moses (a type) . These were shadows and patterns ( as types) of the promises in Christ. So these feasts belong to the covenant made with Abraham, of which we share in Christ.
Passover, (the sacrifice). Unleavened bread (the feast) and the memorial celebration of them keep the command spoken of in these scriptures.
1 Chr.16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

Ps 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

These feasts in particular were retained and not disannulled at Sinai.

Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

A reason for this exchange...

Acts 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

danny ski said:

Circumcision might be a personal issue among the MJ, but it is a community rule among us Jews. Why? The commandment applies to individuals who are unable to make a choice--children.

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Sounds similar to the Sabbath command.

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
Le 25:6 And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee,

Festivals and Sacrifices

Jeremiah 31:31,32.
“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD..

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

Zechariah 11:10
Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.

Malachi 3:1
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Festivals rejected by Yahwah.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but a body you have prepared for me — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Psalm 51:16
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

Proverbs 21:3
To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Isaiah 1:11
“The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

Isaiah 1:14
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

Zephaniah 3:18
“I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals, which is a burden and reproach for you.

Lamentations 2:6
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget her appointed festivals and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.

Hosea 2:11
I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.

Amos 5:21
“I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me.


Since the days of Adam; Festivals, Sacrifices, and Offerings, has been a tradition of mankind. God only instructed Moses on how the people were to perform those things.



Festivals, Sacrifices, and Offerings


Jeremiah 7
21 This is what the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: “Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices, and eat the meat yourselves, 22 for when I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak with them or command them concerning burnt offering and sacrifice.
26 However, they wouldn’t listen to Me or pay attention, but became obstinate; they did more evil than their ancestors.


Zechariah 11:10
Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.


Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a covenant with the people of Israel (nation) and with the people of Judah (faithful.)


The Old Covenant has been revoked; we now live under the New Covenant.

New Priesthood


Hebrews 7:11

If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?


Hebrews 7:12

For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.


Hebrews 7:24

but because Yahshua lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.


1 Peter 2:5

you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Yahshua Christ


1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.


In 167 BC the Hellenistic Jews took control of the temple.

In order for there to be a new covenant, the old covenant had to be revoked. The old covenant of circumcision was the covenant that all nations could enter into to serve God.

If anyone is against the New Covenant replacing the Old Covenant, then how can they be for Christ who gave his life to establish it?

CherubRam said:

In order for there to be a new covenant, the old covenant had to be revoked. The old covenant of circumcision was the covenant that all nations could enter into to serve God.

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Did God revoke the Covenant with Abraham when He gave the Covenant at Sinai? No, He did not.

Galatians 3:15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

Steve Petersen said:

Did God revoke the Covenant with Abraham when He gave the Covenant at Sinai? No, He did not.

Galatians 3:15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

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The inheritance covenant of Abraham is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


The Irrevocable Covenant

This is the irrevocable covenant. It is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


Genesis 17 NIV

17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty"; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram"; your name will be Abraham," for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

"The Covenant of Circumcision" is with Abraham and the nations, because Abraham was to be the father of many nations.

Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Judges 2:1

[ The Angel of the Lord at Bokim ] The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you,

(In regards to the land of Israel)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Chronicles 17:13

I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor.

(In regards to Christ)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Jeremiah 32:40

I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

(In regards to the New Covenant)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

CherubRam said:

The inheritance covenant of Abraham is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


The Irrevocable Covenant

This is the irrevocable covenant. It is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


Genesis 17 NIV

17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty"; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram"; your name will be Abraham," for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

"The Covenant of Circumcision" is with Abraham and the nations, because Abraham was to be the father of many nations.

Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Judges 2:1

[ The Angel of the Lord at Bokim ] The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you,

(In regards to the land of Israel)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Chronicles 17:13

I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor.

(In regards to Christ)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Jeremiah 32:40

I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

(In regards to the New Covenant)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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So what Law is it that God will write on the hearts in the New?

Steve Petersen said:

So what Law is it that God will write on the hearts in the New?

Hebrews 8:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah,

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers

on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

For they did not continue in my covenant,

and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel

after those days, declares the Lord:

I will put my laws into their minds,

and write them on their hearts,

and I will be their God,​

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The weekly Sabbath and the moral commands of God is what we are to keep.

CherubRam said:

The inheritance covenant of Abraham is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


The Irrevocable Covenant

This is the irrevocable covenant. It is a separate covenant from the covenant of circumcision.


Genesis 17 NIV

17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty"; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram"; your name will be Abraham," for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

"The Covenant of Circumcision" is with Abraham and the nations, because Abraham was to be the father of many nations.

Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Judges 2:1

[ The Angel of the Lord at Bokim ] The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you,

(In regards to the land of Israel)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Chronicles 17:13

I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor.

(In regards to Christ)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Jeremiah 32:40

I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.

(In regards to the New Covenant)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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The law is changed, not the promises.
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
I think perhaps what is missed is the idea of firstborn. A double inheritance so to speak. One earthly, and temporal And the other heavenly and eternal. Israel after the flesh has a temporal earthly inheritance by promise. Israel after the spirit has a share in the second portion of an heavenly portion of inheritance. Two covenants were made with Abraham.
Circumcision of the heart, we must be born again.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

pat34lee said:

Like anything true, it doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees.On circumcision of believers (sons of Abraham)
Genesis 17:10-14

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I notice that as regards the covenant of the circumcision, you left off Genesis 17:19, which states quite clearly that this covenant will go through the descendents of Isaac. If you want to get circumcized, more power to you. I recommend it. But please don't misrepresent Genesis 17.

ralliann said:

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

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This basically says that the rule of tribal lineage for the Levitical Priesthood has been set aside as a rule for the new Melchizadec priesthood. It does not set aside the Levitical priesthood.

Open Heart said:

I notice that as regards the covenant of the circumcision, you left off Genesis 17:19, which states quite clearly that this covenant will go through the descendents of Isaac. If you want to get circumcized, more power to you. I recommend it. But please don't misrepresent Genesis 17.

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Why recommend it to a Gentile? I could understand if he were half Jewish, and wanted to have land rights of inheritance in Israel.. But circumcision does not profit anyone in Christ. The heavenly inheritance is by the circumcision made without hands.

CherubRam said:

The weekly Sabbath and the moral commands of God is what we are to keep.

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This sounds exactly like what my mother and father did. It is not what I do as a messianic. As a messianic, I keep all of the Torah, i.e. the food laws, the ritual purity laws, the holy days, etc. Oh, except my family did refrain from pork and shell fish. So if you only keep the moral laws, to me that means you eat lobster, don't wash your hands before meals, sleep with your beloved wife when it's forbidden, and are not in synagogue on Yom Kippur. Now, my parents say they are not messianic and you say you are, so now I'm really confused.

Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "moral?" Maybe to you kosher laws are moral? Could you describe what you mean by moral? I'd like to give you EVERY benefit of the doubt, because everything else you have ever said has definitely sounded messianic, and I'm shocked to high heaven that you have said this. I'm sure there must be a misunderstanding.

CherubRam said:

Everlasting means continual, that is, unless the covenant should be revoked.

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Everlasting means lasting for ever. IOw the covenant isn't going to be revoked, so talking about it is a bit like talking about the sun turning green.

CherubRam said:

(Gifts and callings) How did you reason that those have to do with a covenant?

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1. God's gifts to Israel are all a result of His covenant.
2. God's calling Israel out as a priestly people, a people set apart from the nations, is also part of the covenant.

You can't get around it.