Salvation is eternal, if God knows you, He always knows you

sdowney717 · May 28, 2018

I will tell you this from a POV you have not considered perhaps.

Jesus tells us a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
They simply CAN'T.
If a tree is a bad tree, it bears BAD fruit, and its end is to be cut down and thrown into hell fire.
So since God makes the tree either good or bad, Matthew 12:33, and the good tree always bears good fruit and never bears bad fruit, then that means the good tree never becomes a bad tree which is cut down and thrown into the fire of eternal destruction. And people may be a poor judge of good and bad fruit to God, people are imperfect and especially those who bear bad fruit will persecute those who truly do bear good fruit. What some might be considering good and bad fruit might not be what God is thinking at all regarding good and bad fruit bearing, because your messed up doctrine gets in the way of your understanding and your minds are darkened by lack of knowledge due to your evil judgement.
Those who bear the bad fruit, Christ tells them, He NEVER knew them, so they never had salvation from God. They were never born of God.

God knows all His children as they are part of the family of God, and none of the wicked who bear bad fruit are ever part of the family of God, UNLESS God adopts them into His family because He loves them so much that He makes them alive who were dead giving them a new spirit, a new destiny with Him as new creations in Christ. Then everything is new for them with God, and they have then become the good tree and bear the good fruit to God.
And such transformed people will not bear bad fruit, As Christ has so said. So then God has not destined them for wrath, but to obtain eternal everlasting salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Matthew 7
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

John the baptist also said about not bearing good fruit this,
Luke 3:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?”

Neostarwcc · May 28, 2018

I have to say I agree with your point. I couldn't have said it better myself.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 28, 2018

sdowney717 said:
So since God makes the tree either good or bad, Matthew 12:33, and the good tree always bears good fruit and never bears bad fruit, then that means the good tree never becomes a bad tree which is cut down and thrown into the fire of eternal destruction.

Sorry, this doesn't help your position.

There's multitudes who believe they are "good trees" right up until Judgment Day .

There's multitudes who believe in "osas" right up until Judgement Day.

Multitudes who are told "be gone...." on Judgment Day..... even though they completely believed they were "good trees" AND even also believed in "osas"....

sdowney717 · May 28, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Sorry, this doesn't help your position.

There's multitudes who believe they are "good trees" right up until Judgment Day .

There's multitudes who believe in "osas" right up until Judgement Day.

Multitudes who are told "be gone...." on Judgment Day..... even though they completely believed they were "good trees" AND even also believed in "osas"....

It does not matter what 'they' think whoever they are. All that matters is what Christ and scripture say.
Yes, people can make a mess of doctrine and think they are good trees, God knows who the good trees are.

Another good scripture to consider, if you overcome the world by your faith, then this proves your born of God, and all those born of God overcome the world by their faith, it is a circular type truth because God is the author and finisher of your FAITH, and not YOU. Such persons bear the good fruit to God who is the Vinedresser as they are the good tree because they are begotten of Him. Such persons abide in Christ, and Christ abides in them and they bear much fruit.

1 John 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—[a]our faith.

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Here is another passage people misconstrue as to say salvation can be lost. Branches that do not bear fruit in ME, the Father cuts off from the True Vine. Now you might think this means they were once saved, but no, that is not true. Christ is the creator who created all things, in HIM ALL things CONSIST, so all those who do not bear fruit, or bear bad fruit are going to be separated from Christ eternally. v6 clarifies this. Even though Christ created all men, those who do not abide in Him are going to destruction.

John 15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Southernscotty · May 28, 2018

God's children receive nourishment from the root.
Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root.

We are marked and sealed

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Call me Nic · May 28, 2018

GodsGrace101 · May 28, 2018

Southernscotty said:
God's children receive nourishment from the root.
Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root.

We are marked and sealed

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

What about Romans 11:18-22?

Southernscotty · May 28, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
What about Romans 11:18-22?

Godly fear, respect, reverence and awe :]
I actually copied it but it didn't show up for some reason?

GodsGrace101 · May 28, 2018

Southernscotty said:
Godly fear, respect, reverence and awe :]
I actually copied it but it didn't show up for some reason?

I'm not sure what this thread is about....
Is it your belief the branches could be cut off ?

sdowney717 · May 28, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
What about Romans 11:18-22?

Romans 11 starting in verse 11 is not about individual election to salvation of individual persons.
Paul is speaking about nation groups, in this case the gentile nations versus the jews in broad general terms about why God's salvation departed Israel and went to the gentile nations.
The jews were cut off and the gentiles were grafted in, but NOT ALL gentiles and NOT ALL jews are saved are they.
And at the end, Paul says salvation will return to the jews, when the fullness of the gentiles have come into the kingdom of God.

For reference,

Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

GodsGrace101 · May 28, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Romans 11 starting in verse 18 is not about individual election to salvation of individual persons.
Paul is speaking about nation groups, in this case the gentile nations versus the jews in broad general terms about why God's salvation departed Israel and went to the gentile nations.
The jews were cut off and the gentiles were grafted in, but NOT ALL gentiles and NOT ALL jews are saved are they.
And at the end, Paul says salvation will return to the jews, when the fullness of the gentiles have come into the kingdom of God.

For reference,

Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Yes. I know this...
I was thinking of John 15:1-6 where Jesus tells us to abide in Him or we will be cut off. This is personal.

sdowney717 · May 28, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Yes. I know this...
I was thinking of John 15:1-6 where Jesus tells us to abide in Him or we will be cut off. This is personal.

I referenced that in an earlier post in this thread.
People who do not abide in Christ are most certainly cut off form the true Vine Christ, God will not have dead or non fruit bearing branches attached to the Vine which is Christ.
This though cannot be someone that was saved at an earlier time and has lost their salvation.
Cutoff is the idea of eternal separation from God and Christ if they do not abide in Christ and He does not abide in them. With scripture, the message must be consistent in your interpretation or your wrong about its understanding. For example Christ also tells us His sheep never perish and He gives them eternal life.
And if your not one of His sheep, then you will not believe in Him.
Look at the characteristics of His sheep.
John 10

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

sdowney717 · May 28, 2018

What did Christ say about little children? Is that just some little children, a few, many or all little children?
Well, little children grow up into sinning hellbound adults.
But before they become conscious wilful sinners knowing right from wrong, the kingdom of heaven is theirs so they must abide in Christ and Christ abides in them, unless you believe in infant damnation, which I do not.

Matthew 19:14 ESV
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

sdowney717 · May 28, 2018

Here is a good read on Infant salvation which Calvin believed in, Calvinists ought to be happy as I am one, that we are in good company with the nature of God that says blessed is the Man to whom the Lord will NOT impute to him his sin. And that is according to His mercy.

The Arminian/Wesleyan Dogma of Infant Damnation vs. the Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation
The Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation

Although the concept of "the age of accountability" had its beginnings early in the history of the Christian church, the Scriptures do not use this terminology. Neither does the Bible contain substantial allusions to the eternal state of babies or young children who die before they are old enough to make a conscious decision for or against Christ.

People have always been concerned about the salvation of children who die before they are old enough to clearly understand the gospel. Unfortunately, the conclusion reached by many in the early church was that infants who die without the sacrament of baptism are destined for hell — or limbo. This belief was based upon a mistaken view of baptism.

This view persisted into the Reformation. Catholics, Lutherans, and others continued to believe that infants who weren't baptized would be condemned to hell. This is a tragic distortion of biblical teaching. It is a credit to the clear thinking of John Calvin that he found such a doctrine reprehensible:

"I do not doubt that the infants whom the Lord gathers together from this life are regenerated by a secret operation of the Holy Spirit." (Amsterdam edition of Calvin's works, 8:522).
"I everywhere teach that no one can be justly condemned and perish except on account of actual sin; and to say that the countless mortals taken from life while yet infants are precipitated from their mothers' arms into eternal death is a blasphemy to be universally detested."(Institutes, Book 4, p.335).

Although infants are not capable of conscious sin in the same way as someone older ( Isaiah 7:15-16; Matthew 18:3-4 ), they have inherited natures that are contaminated by sin and in need of transformation and salvation ( Psalm 51:5; Ephesians 2:3 ). Yet, because of their dependency, trust, and innocence, Jesus not only offers young children as models for the manner in which adult sinners need to be converted, He views them in a unique way:

"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."( Matthew 18:10 ).
"Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."( Matthew 18:14 ).

Further, the Scriptures clearly indicate that God does not punish children for the offenses of their fathers ( Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20 ).

Therefore, we believe that those who die as infants or young children are given the gift of salvation. They aren't given this gift because they are without sin; they, too, have inherited Adam's curse. They are given salvation based solely on God's grace, through the sacrificial atonement of Christ on their behalf.

Marvin Knox · May 28, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Salvation is eternal, if God knows you, He always knows you

God is the author and the finisher of our faith.

Many here give lip service to that statement. But when it comes down to it they really do not believe it.

bcbsr · May 29, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Here is a good read on Infant salvation which Calvin believed in, Calvinists ought to be happy as I am one, that we are in good company with the nature of God that says blessed is the Man to whom the Lord will NOT impute to him his sin. And that is according to His mercy.

The Arminian/Wesleyan Dogma of Infant Damnation vs. the Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation
The Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation

Although the concept of "the age of accountability" had its beginnings early in the history of the Christian church, the Scriptures do not use this terminology. Neither does the Bible contain substantial allusions to the eternal state of babies or young children who die before they are old enough to make a conscious decision for or against Christ.

People have always been concerned about the salvation of children who die before they are old enough to clearly understand the gospel. Unfortunately, the conclusion reached by many in the early church was that infants who die without the sacrament of baptism are destined for hell — or limbo. This belief was based upon a mistaken view of baptism.

This view persisted into the Reformation. Catholics, Lutherans, and others continued to believe that infants who weren't baptized would be condemned to hell. This is a tragic distortion of biblical teaching. It is a credit to the clear thinking of John Calvin that he found such a doctrine reprehensible:

"I do not doubt that the infants whom the Lord gathers together from this life are regenerated by a secret operation of the Holy Spirit." (Amsterdam edition of Calvin's works, 8:522).
"I everywhere teach that no one can be justly condemned and perish except on account of actual sin; and to say that the countless mortals taken from life while yet infants are precipitated from their mothers' arms into eternal death is a blasphemy to be universally detested."(Institutes, Book 4, p.335).

Although infants are not capable of conscious sin in the same way as someone older ( Isaiah 7:15-16; Matthew 18:3-4 ), they have inherited natures that are contaminated by sin and in need of transformation and salvation ( Psalm 51:5; Ephesians 2:3 ). Yet, because of their dependency, trust, and innocence, Jesus not only offers young children as models for the manner in which adult sinners need to be converted, He views them in a unique way:

"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."( Matthew 18:10 ).
"Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."( Matthew 18:14 ).

Further, the Scriptures clearly indicate that God does not punish children for the offenses of their fathers ( Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20 ).

Therefore, we believe that those who die as infants or young children are given the gift of salvation. They aren't given this gift because they are without sin; they, too, have inherited Adam's curse. They are given salvation based solely on God's grace, through the sacrificial atonement of Christ on their behalf.

The thing with Calvin is that he never actually defines what constitutes an "infant". He's making a proposition that there's a category of people, somehow related their age, who do not sin. It's simply an hypothesis on his part. And then he goes on to condemn those who don't accept his hypothesis. By the description of Calvinist and Arminian positions described in that link, I am neither. I don't agree with either. But I do agree that if hypothetically there existed a category of people who have not sinned, they would not be condemned, as there would be no just basis for condemning them.

Furthermore Reformed Theology - like that of Presbyterians - is not necessary in accord to what Calvin said. Note the following:

INFANT SALVATION
This article is excerpted from The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Loraine Boettner, Eleventh Printing, The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Philadelphia, PA 1963 435 pages.

This is Section 11. of chapter XI. (pages 143-148) Unconditional Election, and is subtitled, Infant Salvatio

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION 143

11. INFANT SALVATION

"Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved. The Scriptures seem to teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved; but they are silent or practically so in regard to those of the heathens. The Westminster Confession does not pass judgment on the children of heathens who die before coming to years of accountability. Where the Scriptures are silent, the Confession, too, preserves silence."

Calvin insists on taking a stand, but the Westminster Confession does not.

GodsGrace101 · May 29, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
God is the author and the finisher of our faith.

Many here give lip service to that statement. But when it comes down to it they really do not believe it.

Of course God is the author of our faith.
God made faith, not us.
So He will finish what He began in us...
as long as we give Him the opportunity.

Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engagedin evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

GodsGrace101 · May 29, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Here is a good read on Infant salvation which Calvin believed in, Calvinists ought to be happy as I am one, that we are in good company with the nature of God that says blessed is the Man to whom the Lord will NOT impute to him his sin. And that is according to His mercy.

The Arminian/Wesleyan Dogma of Infant Damnation vs. the Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation
The Calvinist Doctrine of Infant Salvation

Although the concept of "the age of accountability" had its beginnings early in the history of the Christian church, the Scriptures do not use this terminology. Neither does the Bible contain substantial allusions to the eternal state of babies or young children who die before they are old enough to make a conscious decision for or against Christ.

People have always been concerned about the salvation of children who die before they are old enough to clearly understand the gospel. Unfortunately, the conclusion reached by many in the early church was that infants who die without the sacrament of baptism are destined for hell — or limbo. This belief was based upon a mistaken view of baptism.

This view persisted into the Reformation. Catholics, Lutherans, and others continued to believe that infants who weren't baptized would be condemned to hell. This is a tragic distortion of biblical teaching. It is a credit to the clear thinking of John Calvin that he found such a doctrine reprehensible:

"I do not doubt that the infants whom the Lord gathers together from this life are regenerated by a secret operation of the Holy Spirit." (Amsterdam edition of Calvin's works, 8:522).
"I everywhere teach that no one can be justly condemned and perish except on account of actual sin; and to say that the countless mortals taken from life while yet infants are precipitated from their mothers' arms into eternal death is a blasphemy to be universally detested."(Institutes, Book 4, p.335).

Although infants are not capable of conscious sin in the same way as someone older ( Isaiah 7:15-16; Matthew 18:3-4 ), they have inherited natures that are contaminated by sin and in need of transformation and salvation ( Psalm 51:5; Ephesians 2:3 ). Yet, because of their dependency, trust, and innocence, Jesus not only offers young children as models for the manner in which adult sinners need to be converted, He views them in a unique way:

"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."( Matthew 18:10 ).
"Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."( Matthew 18:14 ).

Further, the Scriptures clearly indicate that God does not punish children for the offenses of their fathers ( Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20 ).

Therefore, we believe that those who die as infants or young children are given the gift of salvation. They aren't given this gift because they are without sin; they, too, have inherited Adam's curse. They are given salvation based solely on God's grace, through the sacrificial atonement of Christ on their behalf.

I'm not a calvinist but agree with all you've said about children going to heaven.

I just want to say that the Catholic church (of which I used to be a member) does NOT believe in "limbo" and does not agree with Augustine that children could not attain heaven due to the stain of sin. (Rev. 21:27)

Due to the reasons you have given it is believed that God will have mercy on children. They also believe in an age of accountability...most probably around the age of 12-14, although it will differ from child to child.

God will not hold anyone responsible for what they do not understand and children do not understand what sin is and the concept of sinning against God until they are actually taught this.

Augustine was wrong on several concepts. He also thought he had discovered the reason evil existed, until later in life when he declared that we cannot know the reason.

Apologetic_Warrior · May 29, 2018

sdowney717 said:
I will tell you this from a POV you have not considered perhaps.

Jesus tells us a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. They simply CAN'T. If a tree is a bad tree, it bears BAD fruit, and its end is to be cut down and thrown into hell fire. So since God makes the tree either good or bad, Matthew 12:33, and the good tree always bears good fruit and never bears bad fruit, then that means the good tree never becomes a bad tree which is cut down and thrown into the fire of eternal destruction. And people may be a poor judge of good and bad fruit to God, people are imperfect and especially those who bear bad fruit will persecute those who truly do bear good fruit. What some might be considering good and bad fruit might not be what God is thinking at all regarding good and bad fruit bearing, because your messed up doctrine gets in the way of your understanding and your minds are darkened by lack of knowledge due to your evil judgement. Those who bear the bad fruit, Christ tells them, He NEVER knew them, so they never had salvation from God. They were never born of God.

God knows all His children as they are part of the family of God, and none of the wicked who bear bad fruit are ever part of the family of God, UNLESS God adopts them into His family because He loves them so much that He makes them alive who were dead giving them a new spirit, a new destiny with Him as new creations in Christ. Then everything is new for them with God, and they have then become the good tree and bear the good fruit to God. And such transformed people will not bear bad fruit, As Christ has so said. So then God has not destined them for wrath, but to obtain eternal everlasting salvation.

A persons next question might be what makes a GOOD tree good? I've always thought it interesting when a certain man called Jesus "good teacher" and Jesus replied "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" and in reading Paul's letter to the Romans where he quotes from the Old Testament writing; "no one does good, not even one". So what maketh the difference between the good tree and the bad tree? The answer is Christ our mediator. The imputed righteousness of Christ to the believer by faith, which is the gift of God. This is the difference between the two, and the source of the goodness of a good tree.

sdowney717 · May 29, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
A persons next question might be what makes a GOOD tree good? I've always thought it interesting when a certain man called Jesus "good teacher" and Jesus replied "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" and in reading Paul's letter to the Romans where he quotes from the Old Testament writing; "no one does good, not even one". So what maketh the difference between the good tree and the bad tree? The answer is Christ our mediator. The imputed righteousness of Christ to the believer by faith, which is the gift of God. This is the difference between the two, and the source of the goodness of a good tree.

Also, what makes a good tree good, it's not a bad tree, lol.
Your never both, your one or the other.
A bad tree is one who follows Satan, the beast, is unsaved, not born again.

As Christians we are this here, and this is a wonderful mystery, Christ and His bride, which is us.

1 Corinthians 6:16-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

One spirit with Him, not one flesh or one mind, we are intimately joined to Him with an unbreakable bond of love spiritualy. But we can be messed up in our thinking, thoughts, mind, body. But spiritually in Him we are at peace. And it is our spirits that are saved. We do not have our flesh saved, we get a new glorified body someday, but this old body is dead, as God told Adam, dieing you will die. But for believers He made us alive who were dead, and that means spiritually alive to God. Since we joined one spirit with Him, we then have the same eternal life He has, in the Spirit.

2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Salvation is eternal, if God knows you, He always knows you

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We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

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