Eternal Security based on a holy walk and the fear of falling away.

justbyfaith

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1 John 1:8-10, Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:14-25.

In 1 John 1:8-10, it is evident that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. This is speaking of indwelling sin. It is clear from other passages (1 John 3:5-9, 1 John 5:18, Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv)) that the practice of sin is dealt with when we repent and give our hearts to Christ.

Galatians 5:17 is not only to be compared to Romans 7:14-25, it can also be compared to 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I'm sure that even the quoting of this verse will evoke in you the response of telling me what it REALLY means. But the point is that we may want to sin, but as born again believers we cannot according to Galatians 5:17, which says, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Therefore if someone has received the second benefit (mentioned in 2 Corinthians 1:15 and identified in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, and 1 John 3:9), we may want to sin but we are restrained from doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit--and the fear of the LORD in our hearts.

As for Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION. He identifies himself as being "carnal, sold under sin" (which he is not, and I will tell you why I believe this in a moment), in order to show what is the attitude of someone who is carnal. He also shows in this passage that the carnal believer is trusting in the law to save him and because of it will never measure up to the law. Once a man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, he moves on to Romans 8--the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets him free from the law of sin and death, spoken of in Romans 7:14-25. Now I believe that Paul can not be truly carnal because he is here writing inspired scripture; and to say that he is carnal would be to say that a carnally-minded person can pen something that is completely inspired of God to the extent that it is called holy scripture. So I can go and touch and then write holy scripture in the next moment. It doesn't fly, now, does it? And also holy scripture can be ongoing because anybody can write it and therefore anything anyone writes can be called holy scripture.

Paul was being all things to all men: to the weak he became as weak, that he by all means might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:22.

Now 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 says, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

And Hebrews 10:14 in the kjv says this: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And therefore He has perfected for ever them that have been sanctified wholly. Now I see you have used a translation other than the kjv. And since the kjv came before whatever translation you are using, I contend that if you ever began with the kjv, you have done what it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 in moving to another translation. And if you began with the translation you are using, you have simply fallen prey to what happened because there was a demand for the watering down of scripture, which was met by the translators of certain Bible translations when they translated them.

Even in the watered-down translations, it is clear from Hebrews 10:10 that the people in perspective have been sanctified. Why then do the translators depart from what has been spoken by saying that those who previously were mentioned as already sanctified, now suddenly they are merely being sanctified?

And it is true that we are all being sanctified, although we have been sanctified wholly; because the blood of Jesus Christ continually cleanseth us from all sin (for in 1 John 1:7, the Greek word for cleanseth is in the verb tense that means continual action). The moment sin comes in from the outside into the believer, it is immediately cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. This indicates entire sanctification.

And I would also contend that sanctification is not impractical. You cannot be sanctified and not have it have an effect on your behaviour. So if every believer is sanctified the moment he believes, that would indicate to me that he is made holy upon believing and that his practical behaviour will immediately change. So there is no behaving carnally if you are a true Christian believer. The one who behaves carnally is not entirely sanctified, is what I am saying; and therefore according to your statements not a believer.

And the fact that the believer is already dead to sin (and therefore set free from sin -- Romans 6:7) must also be practical. If it is not then Paul the apostle is using empty, meaningless words.

Also, on another note, verses 26 and 27 are not the only verses in Romans 11. I asked you to read with an open mind what it it says in Romans 11:16-24. it is quite clear from this passage that the Gentiles are graffed into the olive tree Israel. Therefore Gentiles can partake of promises to Israel, they can obtain them by faith (Hebrews 11:33, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20).

@aiki wrote:

We are, quite obviously, neither butter nor clay.

You never heard of an analogy or a parable? Or are you just being facetious here?

On another note, I have shown how the motivation of fear is indeed biblical in a previous post in this thread. I will post it momentarily.

Finally, concerning your first statement. That you consider me to have come to a faulty conclusion does not make my conclusion faulty. The burden of proof is on you. You are merely giving an opinion until you can show from scripture that Matthew 7:23 ought not to be applied to John 10:27-28. You would have to show clearly that Jesus gives eternal life to those who work iniquity. I don't think that is possible, because Matthew 13:41-42 says clearly that those who do iniquity will be cast into the furnace of fire; and the scripture is not going to contradict itself.
 
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justbyfaith

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Here is a repeat of the post I told you about.

Perfect love casts out the fear of things other than God. For the fear of God is healthy, and even a desirable.

Proverbs 1:7, The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalms 111:10, The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Job 28:28, And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye should fear: Fear him which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell: I say unto you, Fear him.


1 Peter 1:17, And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
 
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justbyfaith

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I will do some of your work for you, and then demolish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

In Romans 4:5 it says this: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now here it is clear that God justifies the ungodly. But I posit that in justifying them he does not leave them in that state. Anyone who comes to God initially is an ungodly person. We are born dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). But that God transforms lives is evident from history and the Bible. Countless drug addicts have been delivered from their addictions through faith in Jesus Christ. And the scripture says, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Also the scriptures declare that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. Now the word, "justify" in your Bible dictionary, means "to declare righteous". However, we know that it is impossible for God to lie, Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2. So in declaring an ungodly man righteous He cannot do so if the man is unrighteous. And yet He can, because He calls those things which be not as though they were (Romans 4:17) and in doing so He creates a new reality. Therefore in declaring a man righteous God makes him righteous (Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19) in the practical sense (1 John 3:7).

It is clear from Proverbs also that God abhors the one who calls the wicked righteous, and so do the nations. So in doing so Himself He would have to abhor Himself; and would also be abhorred of the nations, if He did not also make the person righteous when He declared him thus to be (see Proverbs 17:15, Proverbs 24:24).
 
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justbyfaith

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Now there is also 1 Timothy 1:15, which says, This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

This is to be interpreted by the immediate context in 1 Timothy 1:13, which says, Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul considered himself in the present tense to be the chief of sinners because of his past, not his present.

It is like when in AA, an alcoholic who has been clean and sober for forty-five years gets up and says, "I am the worst alcoholic who ever lived," because that is what he was when he was drinking.

He owns his past sins in such a way that everyone understands that he knows what his weakness is.

It is in understanding his weakness that he has victory in the present moment. If he ever begins to think that he is no longer an alcoholic, he is downplaying his weakness, and will very likely go back to drinking, thinking that he is strong enough to handle it. In 1 Corinthians 10:12 it says, Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth taked heed lest he fall.

Therefore it is healthy to call myself the chief of sinners; because in doing so I do not downplay my own weakness; while my actual behaviour has not been that of a sinner for many, many years: because Christ has transformed me from the inside out.
 
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justbyfaith

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1 John 2:5, But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12, No man hath seen God at any time: if we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:17, Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 4:8, He that loveth not knoweth not God: for God is love.

1 John 4:16, And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Ephesians 3:19, And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 
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aiki

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1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I'm sure that even the quoting of this verse will evoke in you the response of telling me what it REALLY means.
Are you the only one who gets to say what a verse means? No.

Since John has already said that every person - believer or not - sins (1 John 1:8-10), we know he did not mean in 1 John 3:9 that a person will never sin, only that when a person does he/she will not be able to do so freely, without pang of conscience and conviction of the Spirit, and cannot, as a result, make a practice of sin.

But the point is that we may want to sin, but as born again believers we cannot according to Galatians 5:17, which says, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This can be taken two ways: One is inhibited from fleshly action by the Spirit and one is also inhibited from spiritual action by the Flesh. Romans 7:15-20 sheds light on what Paul meant, I think.

Therefore if someone has received the second benefit (mentioned in 2 Corinthians 1:15 and identified in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, and 1 John 3:9), we may want to sin but we are restrained from doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit--and the fear of the LORD in our hearts.

Uh, Paul didn't say what the "second benefit" was, exactly, in 2 Corinthians 1:15. It was connected to his visiting the Corinthians on his way to and from Macedonia, but this is all the context of verse 15 allows us to say about the "second benefit." Resorting to another letter completely (1 Thessalonians) to explain what you think he meant is not, in this case, good exegesis.

we may want to sin but we are restrained from doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit--and the fear of the LORD in our hearts.

We are enabled by the Holy Spirit to live holy lives but I don't think we are restrained (prevented by force) from sin by the Spirit. And rather than fear motivating my obedience, it is the superior motive of love that does so. In fact, Paul says that anything I might say, or know, or do that does not originate from a motive of love for God is spiritually useless or unprofitable (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) The apostle John also indicates that love is a superior motive to fear and states that one who is motivated by fear in their relationship with God is spiritually immature. (1 John 4:16-19)

As for Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION. He identifies himself as being "carnal, sold under sin" (which he is not, and I will tell you why I believe this in a moment), in order to show what is the attitude of someone who is carnal.

When anyone tries to deny the plain and straightforward statements of Scripture, redefining them as mere literary devices, my false teaching alarm goes off.

also shows in this passage that the carnal believer is trusting in the law to save him and because of it will never measure up to the law. Once a man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, he moves on to Romans 8--the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets him free from the law of sin and death, spoken of in Romans 7:14-25.

Paul offers no such bridge between chapters 7 and 8. He does not say, "But now that I am saved I will live according to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." He gives good reason to think he is writing as, and of, a born-again person in chapter 7:

Romans 7:4
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.


Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.


Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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aiki

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Now I believe that Paul can not be truly carnal because he is here writing inspired scripture;

Why must writing Scripture require a total absence of carnality? Does the pen with which I write think and act just as I do? Is it only useful as a pen if it does? No. Why, then, must the human "pens" God used to write His word be any different?

to say that he is carnal would be to say that a carnally-minded person can pen something that is completely inspired of God to the extent that it is called holy scripture.

Here again you are putting the human person in the central place that God ought to occupy. You are making God's inspired word dependent upon fallible, limited, humans rather than upon God. Do you really think God is so much at the mercy of human capacities? Do you think He must have a perfect person in order to pen His perfect word? I think God can use whatever vessel He likes, however flawed, to do whatever He wants, whenever He wants.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.


So I can go and touch and then write holy scripture in the next moment. It doesn't fly, now, does it?

Only if you're making God subservient to, or dependent upon, human behaviour. In Scripture, God used cowards, murderers, adulterers, deceivers, fornicators and such like to accomplish His will. Compared to the sin of some God used, masturbation is a trivial thing.


And also holy scripture can be ongoing because anybody can write it and therefore anything anyone writes can be called holy scripture.

??? Apparently, you know little about the establishment of the canon of Scripture.



And therefore He has perfected for ever them that have been sanctified wholly. Now I see you have used a translation other than the kjv. And since the kjv came before whatever translation you are using, I contend that if you ever began with the kjv, you have done what it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 in moving to another translation. And if you began with the translation you are using, you have simply fallen prey to what happened because there was a demand for the watering down of scripture, which was met by the translators of certain Bible translations when they translated them.

Uh oh. A KJV-onlyist. Ever heard of the logical fallacy called "poisoning the well"? You're guilty of it here. Regardless, merely asserting what you have here does not make it so.


I disagree entirely with your putting the KJV above all other translations but am not going to get into why in this thread. KJV-onlyists have been shot down over and over again. Here's a good example:


By the way, I happen to like the lyrical quality of the King James prose and so memorize Scripture exclusively from it. Rather puts a crimp in your accusation, I think.

Even in the watered-down translations, it is clear from Hebrews 10:10 that the people in perspective have been sanctified. Why then do the translators depart from what has been spoken by saying that those who previously were mentioned as already sanctified, now suddenly they are merely being sanctified?

I already explained this:

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


"This verse concisely and exactly describes what I explained about being entirely sanctified in Christ (perfected forever) at the moment of conversion, but then learning to manifest this spiritual reality in one's daily living (being sanctified). This side of the grave, no believer ever concludes being more and more sanctified."

Every believer has a spiritual position in Christ. They are "seated with Christ in the heavenlies"
(Ephesians 2:6); they are co-crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20); they are "dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ" (Romans 6:11); they have "put on Christ" (Romans 13:14); they have his perfect righteousness imputed to them (Romans 4:22-24), and so on. The Christian life is the process by which what is true of the believer in their position in Christ is manifested increasingly in their daily condition. But it is a process. It takes time for all that is true of the "new creature in Christ" to be revealed in how they live.

If a man inherits a million dollars is this fact instantly reflected in his living? No. The man must know and believe he has inherited a million dollars and then he must make withdrawals of his inheritance and spend it. Only then does the fact of his position as a millionaire manifest in his condition. If he never spent a cent of his inheritance, would he still be a millionaire? Yes. So, too, for the believer who has a spiritual inheritance in Christ. At the moment of conversion, the believer is a sort of "spiritual millionaire." But this fact only reveals itself over time as the believer appropriates ("spends") his inheritance. It is, then, possible for a believer to be entirely sanctified by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and yet only living out this fact incrementally over time. And so we read in Hebrews 10:14 that the believer is both wholly sanctified (positionally in Christ) and being sanctified (in their condition).


You cannot be sanctified and not have it have an effect on your behaviour. So if every believer is sanctified the moment he believes, that would indicate to me that he is made holy upon believing and that his practical behaviour will immediately change. So there is no behaving carnally if you are a true Christian believer. The one who behaves carnally is not entirely sanctified, is what I am saying; and therefore according to your statements not a believer.

See above.

You are merely giving an opinion until you can show from scripture that Matthew 7:23 ought not to be applied to John 10:27-28.

I have done. Twice now, I think. The problem isn't that I haven't shown your error, but that you refuse to accept it.

Here is a repeat of the post I told you about.

Perfect love casts out the fear of things other than God. For the fear of God is healthy, and even a desirable.

A fear of God, that is, a reverential awe of Him is the "beginning of wisdom," but a fear of Hell has no place in the life of a believer. The apostle John makes this crystal clear:


1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.


Also the scriptures declare that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. now the word, "justify" in your Bible dictionary, means "to declare righteous". However, we know that it is impossible for God to lie, Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2. So in declaring an ungodly man righteous He cannot do so if the man is unrighteous.

As I have pointed out, the Bible refers to a man's spiritual position in Christ and the condition of his living, recognizing that they are not always one and the same thing. Believers are declared justified forensically, they are not justified literally. A man who is clothed in Christ's righteousness is no more actually righteous than a man who is clothed in a bear skin coat is actually a bear.

So in doing so Himself He would have to abhor Himself; and would also be abhorred of the nations, if He did not also make the person righteous when He declared him thus to be (see Proverbs 17:15, Proverbs 24:24).

Are you saying, then, that a sinner who is saved has never sinned? It is, after all, a sinner who is declared righteous at the moment he is saved; he has not lived righteously even though God declares him righteous. Is God a liar, then? Ought God to abhor Himself? For He has said that a man who has done nothing righteous, who, in fact, has lived only wickedly (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:10; Romans 3:23), is now righteous. Quite obviously, God's declaration of a person as righteous when they are saved is a forensic, or judicial, declaration, not a description of their actual condition.

If a man has been convicted of, say, robbery, but full restitution for his crime is made by another and before the law the man is no longer under the condemnation of the law, did he not commit the robbery? Of course he did!


[Staff edit].
 
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mark kennedy

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And I would also contend that sanctification is not impractical. You cannot be sanctified and not have it have an effect on your behaviour. So if every believer is sanctified the moment he believes, that would indicate to me that he is made holy upon believing and that his practical behaviour will immediately change. So there is no behaving carnally if you are a true Christian believer. The one who behaves carnally is not entirely sanctified, is what I am saying; and therefore according to your statements not a believer.

I'm not sure of the specifics you are dealing with in the ongoing discussion but this point is pretty easy to address. Justification starts the sanctification process. Since at conversion your not translated into an incorruptible body the process of sanctification is a life long process beginning at conversion and not fully complete until the church is raised incorruptible.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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justbyfaith

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justbyfaith said: ↑
1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I'm sure that even the quoting of this verse will evoke in you the response of telling me what it REALLY means.
@aiki: Are you the only one who gets to say what a verse means? No.

Since John has already said that every person - believer or not - sins (1 John 1:8-10), we know he did not mean in 1 John 3:9 that a person will never sin, only that when a person does he/she will not be able to do so freely, without pang of conscience and conviction of the Spirit, and cannot, as a result, make a practice of sin.
In 1 John 1:8-10 it does NOT say that everyone sins...it says that everyone has indwelling sin. Now I have already explained that this indwelling sin can be rendered dead so that it has no say over our behaviour (Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8). And we know that since John says in 1 John 2:17 that the one who does the will of God abides for ever, and in 1 John 3:6 that whosoever abideth in him sinneth not (which, according to you cannot be hyperbole but must be literal since you have forbidden God to use literary tactics in what He says), that if we interpret 1 John 3:9 by what the scripture said before, it is saying that the one who is born of God does not and can not sin. btw, I did not comment on what I think 1 John 3:9 means; but I expected you to give a meaning that was different from the plain rendering of what was said, which you did; contrary to the interpretive principle found in 2 Corinthians 3:12, which is to take it as meaning what it says, as the apostles used great plainness of speech.

justbyfaith said: ↑
But the point is that we may want to sin, but as born again believers we cannot according to Galatians 5:17, which says, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
@aiki: This can be taken two ways: One is inhibited from fleshly action by the Spirit and one is also inhibited from spiritual action by the Flesh. Romans 7:15-20 sheds light on what Paul meant, I think.
Yes, depending on what principle you are controlled by as a believer: flesh or Spirit. If you are controlled by the flesh you should question whether you are even a believer, especially if you are not grieved by it.

justbyfaith said: ↑
Therefore if someone has received the second benefit (mentioned in 2 Corinthians 1:15 and identified in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, and 1 John 3:9), we may want to sin but we are restrained from doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit--and the fear of the LORD in our hearts.
@aiki: Uh, Paul didn't say what the "second benefit" was, exactly, in 2 Corinthians 1:15. It was connected to his visiting the Corinthians on his way to and from Macedonia, but this is all the context of verse 15 allows us to say about the "second benefit." Resorting to another letter completely (1 Thessalonians) to explain what you think he meant is not, in this case, good exegesis.
It is a common sense conclusion that entire sanctification would be a second benefit over and above our immediate justification as believers, which happens at believing. But if you want to believe that entire sanctification is not a SECOND benefit, then you probably have to conclude that it is the FIRST benefit. Therefore if someone is not entirely sanctified, they have never believed: and I am not opposed to that interpretation.
justbyfaith said: ↑
we may want to sin but we are restrained from doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit--and the fear of the LORD in our hearts.
@aiki: We are enabled by the Holy Spirit to live holy lives but I don't think we are restrained (prevented by force) from sin by the Spirit. And rather than fear motivating my obedience, it is the superior motive of love that does so. In fact, Paul says that anything I might say, or know, or do that does not originate from a motive of love for God is spiritually useless or unprofitable (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) The apostle John also indicates that love is a superior motive to fear and states that one who is motivated by fear in their relationship with God is spiritually immature. (1 John 4:16-19)
Certainly love can motivate a person to obedience, that is part of my own motivation. But I have given twice in this thread certain scriptures which speak of how fear as a motivation is not an unbiblical motivation for obeying the Lord. In Proverbs it says, "Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint." Also, it is written in 2 Thessalonians that there is a restraining factor that keeps the Antichrist from appearing and the mystery of iniquity from being fully realized. And I believe that this restraining factor is the Holy Spirit. In me, He does indeed keep me from sinning through His presence in my life, and the fear of the LORD is also a factor. When the fear of the LORD was not present, I know that I did love God; but it was not enough to keep me from doing certain things that weren't pleasing to Him. So if you don't sin at all through the motivation of love alone, consider yourself lucky and special. However, if the motivation of love keeps you from only doing certain things, but other things are on open market, then perhaps you need the fear of the LORD in your heart to motivate you not to do those things which are not pleasing to Him.

justbyfaith said: ↑
As for Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION. He identifies himself as being "carnal, sold under sin" (which he is not, and I will tell you why I believe this in a moment), in order to show what is the attitude of someone who is carnal.
@aiki: When anyone tries to deny the plain and straightforward statements of Scripture, redefining them as mere literary devices, my false teaching alarm goes off.
So then, is it false teaching to say that Jesus was using hyperbole in Matthew 5:29-30? because if He wasn't, all of us should right about now be cutting off our hands and plucking out our eyes!

justbyfaith said: ↑
also shows in this passage that the carnal believer is trusting in the law to save him and because of it will never measure up to the law. Once a man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, he moves on to Romans 8--the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets him free from the law of sin and death, spoken of in Romans 7:14-25.
@aiki: Paul offers no such bridge between chapters 7 and 8. He does not say, "But now that I am saved I will live according to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." He gives good reason to think he is writing as, and of, a born-again person in chapter 7:
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree here. But if you are wrong, and continue to live according to Romans 7 all your life, you risk condemnation if I am right. Compare Romans 8:9 to Romans 7:5, concerning the term "in the flesh". Then compare Romans 7:5 to Romans 7:23, concerning the term, "in our/my members". Those who are in the flesh have the motions of sins working in their members to bring forth fruit unto death; and this is what is spoken of in Romans 7:14-25 because verse 23 is a part of that whole. And since in Romans 8:9, if someone is in the flesh he does not belong to Christ, I conclude that the people spoken of in Romans 7:14-25 are not saved. But I don't expect you to get this right away, if you have a different point of view. I only give it as a seed, which may land on any kind of soil as your heart.

@aiki: Romans 7:4
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
I will agree that the attitude of "Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death," is in my humble opinion, the attitude of one who is born again; or at least of one who is being drawn to Christ.
 
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justbyfaith

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I'm not sure of the specifics you are dealing with in the ongoing discussion but this point is pretty easy to address. Justification starts the sanctification process. Since at conversion your not translated into an incorruptible body the process of sanctification is a life long process beginning at conversion and not fully complete until the church is raised incorruptible.

Grace and peace,
Mark
That is actually a false doctrine. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), and 1 John 3:9 (kjv), the reality is shown that we do not have to sin and that entire sanctification is obtainable in this life. See also Romans 8:12. We are obligated to NOT obey our flesh, and we are also NOT obligated TO obey our flesh according to that verse. We don't have to sin if we are filled with the Holy Ghost. And He says to be filled we need only to ask for the infilling (Luke 11:9-13). Entire sanctification is therefore obtainable in this life. Also if the goal were unattainable, discouragement would be the rule for anyone who wanted to be sanctified; we would give up before we start because why should I try to obtain something that is unattainable? It would be a useless exercise! There would be no point in seeking to be holy because it is impossible to be holy! But it is not impossible. God says in 1 Peter 1:15-16 that we should be holy in all manner of conversation because he is holy. God would not give us such a command if He did not also enable us to follow it. He is not of an impish nature, where He would require something of us that we cannot obtain in the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
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mark kennedy

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That is actually a false doctrine. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), and 1 John 3:9 (kjv), the reality is shown that we do not have to sin and that entire sanctification is obtainable in this life. See also Romans 8:12. We are obligated to NOT obey our flesh, and we are also NOT obligated TO obey our flesh according to that verse. We don't have to sin if we are filled with the Holy Ghost. And He says to be filled we need only to ask for the infilling (Luke 11:9-13). Entire sanctification is therefore obtainable in this life. Also if the goal were unattainable, discouragement would be the rule for anyone who wanted to be sanctified; we would give up before we start because why should I try to obtain something that is unattainable? It would be a useless exercise! There would be no point in seeking to be holy because it is impossible to be holy! But it is not impossible. God says in 1 Peter 1:15-16 that we should be holy in all manner of conversation because he is holy. God would not give us such a command if He did not also enable us to follow it. He is not of an impish nature, where He would require something of us that we cannot obtain in the power of the Holy Spirit.
A false doctrine huh? Ok I have a question, in the previous post weren't you just refuting your own post because it kind of looks like you were. Not your response to me but the one before it, it looks like you responded to your own post and at one point, you agreed to disagree:

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree here. But if you are wrong, and continue to live according to Romans 7 all your life, you risk condemnation if I am right.

Let me know how that works out.
 
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justbyfaith

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justbyfaith said: ↑
Now I believe that Paul can not be truly carnal because he is here writing inspired scripture;
@aiki: Why must writing Scripture require a total absence of carnality? Does the pen with which I write think and act just as I do? Is it only useful as a pen if it does? No. Why, then, must the human "pens" God used to write His word be any different?
If someone has a wicked heart, how can they write inspired scripture? A wicked person can not have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. Therefore they cannot be instruments usable by God to pen what would be called the HOLY SCRIPTURE.

justbyfaith said: ↑
to say that he is carnal would be to say that a carnally-minded person can pen something that is completely inspired of God to the extent that it is called holy scripture.
@aiki: Here again you are putting the human person in the central place that God ought to occupy. You are making God's inspired word dependent upon fallible, limited, humans rather than upon God. Do you really think God is so much at the mercy of human capacities? Do you think He must have a perfect person in order to pen His perfect word? I think God can use whatever vessel He likes, however flawed, to do whatever He wants, whenever He wants.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Weak and foolish and base things does not translate into wicked things. It translates into people who are not considered to be in high society and other such things as that.

justbyfaith said: ↑
So I can go and touch and then write holy scripture in the next moment. It doesn't fly, now, does it?
@aiki: Only if you're making God subservient to, or dependent upon, human behaviour. In Scripture, God used cowards, murderers, adulterers, deceivers, fornicators and such like to accomplish His will. Compared to the sin of some God used, masturbation is a trivial thing.

Did he use cowards? Then he also later cast them away; for it is written in Revelation 21:8 that the cowardly shall have their part in the lake of fire.

justbyfaith said: ↑
And also holy scripture can be ongoing because anybody can write it and therefore anything anyone writes can be called holy scripture.@aiki: ??? Apparently, you know little about the establishment of the canon of Scripture.
Apparently, you don't understand that the holy scripture was penned by SAINTS; not sinners.

justbyfaith said: ↑
And therefore He has perfected for ever them that have been sanctified wholly. Now I see you have used a translation other than the kjv. And since the kjv came before whatever translation you are using, I contend that if you ever began with the kjv, you have done what it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 in moving to another translation. And if you began with the translation you are using, you have simply fallen prey to what happened because there was a demand for the watering down of scripture, which was met by the translators of certain Bible translations when they translated them.
@aiki: Uh oh. A KJV-onlyist. Ever heard of the logical fallacy called "poisoning the well"? You're guilty of it here. Regardless, merely asserting what you have here does not make it so.
Never heard of that. Why don't you explain it to me? I understand that you probably have a preference for watered-down translations and have not seen with your own eyes how the "well is poisoned" (not that I poisoned it but that it has been watered-down in other translations so that the fulness of the holiness message is not present); but I have seen it with my own eyes. I have not yet looked at your video, but I will have a look at it shortly; nevertheless I have heard all of the arguments and none of them has convinced me because it is clear to me that certain things are removed from other translations that are present in the kjv; and I personally will not be cheated out of the blessing of what the word of God truly says for that I was reading a translation that said it only slightly differently and took the holy requirement right out of scripture.

@aiki: I disagree entirely with your putting the KJV above all other translations but am not going to get into why in this thread. KJV-onlyists have been shot down over and over again. Here's a good example:

That is your prerogative. As such you are arguing from a perspective where you will not be able to convince me very easily of anything; and btw, I do not consider myself as kjv-only, but as kjv-SUPERIOR. I do look at other translations to help when the kjv is unclear; but when there is a discrepancy I hold the kjv to be authoritative. If you don't there is a smorgasborg of views out there in the different translations; and the way is no longer narrow (see Matthew 7:13-14).

@aiki: By the way, I happen to like the lyrical quality of the King James prose and so memorize Scripture exclusively from it. Rather puts a crimp in your accusation, I think.
Then you should have quoted Hebrews 10:14 from memory, out of the kjv instead of whatever version that you quoted it out of. But evidently you liked another translation's rendering of it better; and therefore ought to consider the question of whether you turned away from the truth told you in the kjv because of itching ears.

justbyfaith said: ↑
Even in the watered-down translations, it is clear from Hebrews 10:10 that the people in perspective have been sanctified. Why then do the translators depart from what has been spoken by saying that those who previously were mentioned as already sanctified, now suddenly they are merely being sanctified?
@aiki: I already explained this:

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

"This verse concisely and exactly describes what I explained about being entirely sanctified in Christ (perfected forever) at the moment of conversion, but then learning to manifest this spiritual reality in one's daily living (being sanctified). This side of the grave, no believer ever concludes being more and more sanctified."

Every believer has a spiritual position in Christ. They are "seated with Christ in the heavenlies"
(Ephesians 2:6); they are co-crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20); they are "dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ" (Romans 6:11); they have "put on Christ" (Romans 13:14); they have his perfect righteousness imputed to them (Romans 4:22-24), and so on. The Christian life is the process by which what is true of the believer in their position in Christ is manifested increasingly in their daily condition. But it is a process. It takes time for all that is true of the "new creature in Christ" to be revealed in how they live.

If a man inherits a million dollars is this fact instantly reflected in his living? No. The man must know and believe he has inherited a million dollars and then he must make withdrawals of his inheritance and spend it. Only then does the fact of his position as a millionaire manifest in his condition. If he never spent a cent of his inheritance, would he still be a millionaire? Yes. So, too, for the believer who has a spiritual inheritance in Christ. At the moment of conversion, the believer is a sort of "spiritual millionaire." But this fact only reveals itself over time as the believer appropriates ("spends") his inheritance. It is, then, possible for a believer to be entirely sanctified by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and yet only living out this fact incrementally over time. And so we read in Hebrews 10:14 that the believer is both wholly sanctified (positionally in Christ) and being sanctified (in their condition).
 
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[/quote]
Romans 4:22-24 has in its context Romans 4:20-22. It says, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God. And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was also able to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

So then, having righteousness imputed to us, has to do with unwavering faith, and the persuasion that God is able to perform what He has promised. Therefore we have righteousness imputed to us if we are convinced of the reality of certain promises: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. Hebrews 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. And 1 John 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Also to be considered is 2 Corinthians 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech.

Also, you did not explain how it is that certain translators departed from the thought that was being presented, if how the people in question were already sanctified, and then said something entirely different, that they were being sanctified. And even if they were only being sanctified, I have explained how biblically this can still mean that they have been sanctified entirely, even in the practical sense.

justbyfaith said: ↑
You cannot be sanctified and not have it have an effect on your behaviour. So if every believer is sanctified the moment he believes, that would indicate to me that he is made holy upon believing and that his practical behaviour will immediately change. So there is no behaving carnally if you are a true Christian believer. The one who behaves carnally is not entirely sanctified, is what I am saying; and therefore according to your statements not a believer.
@aiki: See above.
See above.
justbyfaith said: ↑
You are merely giving an opinion until you can show from scripture that Matthew 7:23 ought not to be applied to John 10:27-28.
@aiki: I have done. Twice now, I think. The problem isn't that I haven't shown your error, but that you refuse to accept it.
You have not shown me any errors in what I preach; I have shown the error in your reasoning, which you also refuse to accept.

justbyfaith said: ↑
Here is a repeat of the post I told you about.

Perfect love casts out the fear of things other than God. For the fear of God is healthy, and even a desirable.
@aiki: A fear of God, that is, a reverential awe of Him is the "beginning of wisdom," but a fear of Hell has no place in the life of a believer. The apostle John makes this crystal clear:


1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
I have said within this thread that it is kind of like a blind man living on a plateau where there is sound emanating from the middle. If he wanders away from the sound, he has reason to feel fear, as he might walk over the edge at any moment: but if out of a healthy fear he stays close to the middle, he has no reason to feel fear, as there is no chance of walking over the edge. Nevertheless fear is involved, although it may be to the point that he does not feel it; and in fact perfect love casts out fear because his love for the Person who dwells in the middle keeps him there; and the same Person assures him that he will never walk over the edge as long as he continues to love Him. But if he should go away from the middle out of ceasing to love the Person in the middle, he has reason to feel fear because he could walk over the edge.
justbyfaith said: ↑
Also the scriptures declare that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. now the word, "justify" in your Bible dictionary, means "to declare righteous". However, we know that it is impossible for God to lie, Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2. So in declaring an ungodly man righteous He cannot do so if the man is unrighteous.
@aiki: As I have pointed out, the Bible refers to a man's spiritual position in Christ and the condition of his living, recognizing that they are not always one and the same thing. Believers are declared justified forensically, they are not justified literally. A man who is clothed in Christ's righteousness is no more actually righteous than a man who is clothed in a bear skin coat is actually a bear.
This indicates to me that you believe that a man is justified even if he is walking in blatant sinful behaviour; you are therefore one of those who in his teaching turns the grace of our God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:3-4).

justbyfaith said: ↑
So in doing so Himself He would have to abhor Himself; and would also be abhorred of the nations, if He did not also make the person righteous when He declared him thus to be (see Proverbs 17:15, Proverbs 24:24).
@aiki: Are you saying, then, that a sinner who is saved has never sinned? It is, after all, a sinner who is declared righteous at the moment he is saved; he has not lived righteously even though God declares him righteous. Is God a liar, then? Ought God to abhor Himself? For He has said that a man who has done nothing righteous, who, in fact, has lived only wickedly (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:10; Romans 3:23), is now righteous. Quite obviously, God's declaration of a person as righteous when they are saved is a forensic, or judicial, declaration, not a description of their actual condition.
Your answer is in the thing that you deleted. God calls those things which be not as though they were. And in declaring a man righteous He makes him righteous. So of course he has sinned (in the past). What a lame attempt to put words in my mouth!

If a man has been convicted of, say, robbery, but full restitution for his crime is made by another and before the law the man is no longer under the condemnation of the law, did he not commit the robbery? Of course he did!


[Staff edit].

And you have not shown my exegesis to be faulty. I challenge you to go back to the OP and show my exegesis faulty line-by-line with arguments that have not already been answered by me within this thread.
 
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justbyfaith

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A false doctrine huh? Ok I have a question, in the previous post weren't you just refuting your own post because it kind of looks like you were. Not your response to me but the one before it, it looks like you responded to your own post and at one point, you agreed to disagree:



Let me know how that works out.
You need to point out more clearly how it is that you think I refuted my own post. In agreeing to disagree, that does not mean that I agreed with the statement of my opponent, but rather that I was not at that point going to argue my point. I was saying that I disagreed with my opponent but that we could agree not to argue the point any further because neither of us in the present moment was going to be able to convince the other of his point of view.
 
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mark kennedy

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You need to point out more clearly how it is that you think I refuted my own post. In agreeing to disagree, that does not mean that I agreed with the statement of my opponent, but rather that I was not at that point going to argue my point. I was saying that I disagreed with my opponent but that we could agree not to argue the point any further because neither of us in the present moment was going to be able to convince the other of his point of view.
In post #86 and at least twice since, the posts your quoting are your own and you are saying awful things about yourself. When you respond to a post the name of the member is part of the quote, you are obviously quoting yourself, and being scathing in your retort. Look at the quote box I am responding to, it says justbyfaith right? Now go back and take a look at some of your most recent posts. You've done it like three times on this page.
 
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justbyfaith

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No; there is confusion here that will now be corrected. In each quote, it begins with what I said and ends with @aiki's response to what I said. I will try and go back and make that clearer.

Sincerely yours, justbyfaith.
 
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mark kennedy

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No; there is confusion here that will now be corrected. In each quote, it begins with what I said and ends with @aiki's response to what I said. I will try and go back and make that clearer.

Sincerely yours, justbyfaith.
Go back to post #86, just scroll up the number is at the top right of the post, just like this post is #95, and I've provided a link. Who are you quoting because the name of the poster is at the top of the quote box.
 
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justbyfaith

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Go back to post #86, just scroll up the number is at the top right of the post, just like this post is #95, and I've provided a link. Who are you quoting because the name of the poster is at the top of the quote box.
Okay; I went back and corrected that too.

I was of the opinion that it would be clear based on the tenor of the voice who is speaking in each instance, but apparently it was not clear enough. Fixed now, though.
 
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mark kennedy

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Okay; I went back and corrected that too.

I was of the opinion that it would be clear based on the tenor of the voice who is speaking in each instance, but apparently it was not clear enough. Fixed now, though.
No buddy, I don't think so and you may be right that there is a technical problem of some kind but I don't think so. Did you look at post #86? Because the quote box still has your name on it. I'm not trying to embarrass you, I just want you to take a look at the post and tell me if what your quoting is from one of your posts.
 
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You need to point out more clearly how it is that you think I refuted my own post. In agreeing to disagree, that does not mean that I agreed with the statement of my opponent, but rather that I was not at that point going to argue my point. I was saying that I disagreed with my opponent but that we could agree not to argue the point any further because neither of us in the present moment was going to be able to convince the other of his point of view.
I think what Mark is saying is you are actually responding to your own posts and then arguing with yourself.

I'm seeing the same thing.

Is this some type of theatre arts approach to debate? If so it is very Avant Garde
 
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