Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

TribulationSigns · Feb 1, 2018

SeventyOne said:
Truth is, there's no point for me to find. I'm done.

Good.

FredVB · Feb 2, 2018

SeventyOne said:
That's only one part of the equation. The Church is also given the rod of iron to rule with (Revelation 2:26-27). He is not the only one ruling with a rod of iron. ....

Davy said:
You said that Child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron does not mean my Lord Jesus. I showed you from God's Word it does. End of argument.

Any of the church would not rule with the rod without Jesus. The presence of Jesus ruling is the only way any will rule with him. And the child being taken up violently is not a description given in scripture passages.

The book of the Revelation is entirely with symbols, which gets neglected by some. So it should not be insisted that we should accept that a description in it corresponds exactly to a known reality. One should study the book prayerfully and even with hearing others, such as some speaking to this in their church, draw their own conclusions. In the end we will recognize meanings that are in it. It is not essential in our walk to know them all rightly beforehand, while none of it should be thought to take away our responsibilities in how we should live now.

Are there really seven Spirits of God? Does Jesus really have seven eyes? And does he have seven horns? Remember that numbers, as the frequently used number seven, are symbolic, not just an actual count of anything. So even trumpets are symbols, as other things in the book are.

FredVB · Feb 3, 2018

Satan is quite active now in this world. The man of sin, who will, as the one making himself known as god himself, sit in God's place, has yet to have himself revealed. But ahead of these things, we will all face great troubles, much of which will come from what just about all of us are doing, with coming crises from our overusing environments of this world and affecting the climate, even when there was warning with Revelation 11:18, while the resources supporting our standard of living are diminishing.

mark kennedy · Mar 30, 2018

FredVB said:
Any of the church would not rule with the rod without Jesus. The presence of Jesus ruling is the only way any will rule with him. And the child being taken up violently is not a description given in scripture passages.

The book of the Revelation is entirely with symbols, which gets neglected by some. So it should not be insisted that we should accept that a description in it corresponds exactly to a known reality. One should study the book prayerfully and even with hearing others, such as some speaking to this in their church, draw their own conclusions. In the end we will recognize meanings that are in it. It is not essential in our walk to know them all rightly beforehand, while none of it should be thought to take away our responsibilities in how we should live now.

Are there really seven Spirits of God? Does Jesus really have seven eyes? And does he have seven horns? Remember that numbers, as the frequently used number seven, are symbolic, not just an actual count of anything. So even trumpets are symbols, as other things in the book are.

Hey Fred,

Thought I would mention, I have proposed a general exposition of the book of Revelations (aka The Revelation). I focus on the seals, trumpets and vials of wrath as a general outline of the book. I actually hold to a mid to post tribulation rapture. I'd be interested in any insights from someone who shares that view.

Grace and peace,
Mark

CassiusCritzer · Apr 11, 2018

I believe in what is written in the timeline Jesus gave us in Matthew 24. That says that Christians will be horribly betrayed by friends and family and be persecuted as never before. Then comes the Abomination of Desolation. Then the sun and moon are darkened. Then Jesus is seen by everyone coming in the clouds and gather the elect ie the Rapture.

God has not appointed us to wrath, so wrath comes after the Tribulation. That means Christians are here on the Earth halfway through the reign of the Antichrist.

I fully expect to be beheaded as martyrdom for believing in Jesus. I am not going to quit witnessing.

CassiusCritzer · Apr 11, 2018

Luke 21 is a parallel passage and specifies that betrayal in some detail. I think we can expect a huge amount of fair weather Christians to renounce Jesus. Many international Christians in places like North Korea and Africa and the Middle East have been tortured, abused, and even crucified. This is why I doubt the Pre-Tribulatio Rapture as Christians have been undergone tribulation(persecution) since Saul of Tarsus.

Davy · Apr 13, 2018

FredVB said:
Any of the church would not rule with the rod without Jesus. The presence of Jesus ruling is the only way any will rule with him. And the child being taken up violently is not a description given in scripture passages.

True, Christ's elect will reign over the nations with a rod of iron with Him, when He returns, as written in Rev.2.

The book of the Revelation is entirely with symbols, which gets neglected by some. So it should not be insisted that we should accept that a description in it corresponds exactly to a known reality. One should study the book prayerfully and even with hearing others, such as some speaking to this in their church, draw their own conclusions. In the end we will recognize meanings that are in it. It is not essential in our walk to know them all rightly beforehand, while none of it should be thought to take away our responsibilities in how we should live now.

Well, yes and no. A lot of symbology is given, that's true. But even some fantastic sounding events given will be quite literal. For example, the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of Heaven, that sounds utterly fantastic, not a reality of today's world. Yet it will happen in the world to come like God's Word declares, literally. And God's River of Rev.22, it will be a literal River healing the waters on earth it comes into contact with (Ezek.47). That River was originally upon this earth before, when God's Garden of Eden was once here (Gen.2).

Are there really seven Spirits of God? Does Jesus really have seven eyes? And does he have seven horns? Remember that numbers, as the frequently used number seven, are symbolic, not just an actual count of anything. So even trumpets are symbols, as other things in the book are.

Not literally seven eyes or horns as those truly are symbols. You'll find the seven Spirits of God that's upon Jesus Christ written of in Isaiah 11:2.

Davy · Apr 13, 2018

Old po

a pilgrim said:
O.k., then tell me, has the following passage been fulfilled?

Hos.3
[1] Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
[2] So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
[3] And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
[4] For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
[5] Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

And, the answer is, no.

Call it on hold, call it dispensationalism, call it what you want, but Israel has not returned, sought the LORD their God, David thier king, (in the Person of Jesus during the Mill. Kingdom,) nor the fear of the LORD.

And. . . notice, it happens in the latter days, (the last days.)

So, you are correct, their is only one plan of salvation, Jesus only, BUT, the Jews have not yet acknowledged him or his salvation.

The elect here is not the church, but Israel. Matt. 24 must be read in context. Jesus mentions the "who" of his discussion, THE FIG TREE. Who is that? Israel. NEVER in the N.T. is the church called his FIG TREE.

Old post, but...

The Genesis 49:10 prophecy is being fulfilled today by the tribe of Judah. Shiloh (Jesus) has not yet come, and Judah is still supposed to be in possession of the royal sceptre (David's throne on earth), yet there is no king of Judah in Jerusalem today. So how are they fulfilling it still? Secret: there is... one of the tribe of Judah sitting upon an earthly throne today, and it's not Jesus. But Jesus will claim that throne when He does return.

Ezek 21:27
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
KJV

Furthermore, when God scattered the 12 tribes of Israel, many Jews accepted The Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Christian west. Many of the ten lost tribes of Israel did also. So which Israel was Jesus actually giving the Matthew 24 signs to, the believing Jews in Jerusalem only? No, of course not.

The Matthew 24 signs are the Seals of Revelation 6, and Jesus gave His Revelation through His Apostle John to the seven Churches in Asia (Minor). So Matthew 24 is written to His Church especially.

Darwin's Myth · May 5, 2018

Using biblical facts only... You decide...

Jesus said, four times, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is "at the last day".- John 6:39,40,44,54
The Apostle Paul said... the resurrection of the dead and those believers whom are alive will be caught up (raptured) together to meet the Lord in the air.(1 Thess.4:16,17). Therefore, doesn't the "rapture" also happen at the last day since it's mentioned along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

Jesus said, Immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29), Jesus will be coming in the clouds of heaven (Matt.24:30), and He will gather together (those alive and dead believers) His elect from the Earth (Matt.24:31). Wouldn't this event also be at the last day, when Jesus returns, since it's happening after the Great Tribulation?

I've heard it said, that the Church is gone off the earth before the Great Tribulation because the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1. But, the saints are mentioned in Revelation 13 and 14, during the Great Tribulation. Aren't the saints synonymous with the Church?

sdowney717 · May 9, 2018

Darwin's Myth said:
Using biblical facts only... You decide...

Jesus said, four times, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is "at the last day".- John 6:39,40,44,54
The Apostle Paul said... the resurrection of the dead and those believers whom are alive will be caught up (raptured) together to meet the Lord in the air.(1 Thess.4:16,17). Therefore, doesn't the "rapture" also happen at the last day since it's mentioned along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

Jesus said, Immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29), Jesus will be coming in the clouds of heaven (Matt.24:30), and He will gather together (those alive and dead believers) His elect from the Earth (Matt.24:31). Wouldn't this event also be at the last day, when Jesus returns, since it's happening after the Great Tribulation?

I've heard it said, that the Church is gone off the earth before the Great Tribulation because the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1. But, the saints are mentioned in Revelation 13 and 14, during the Great Tribulation. Aren't the saints synonymous with the Church?

I agree. Our salvation from this present evil age, occurs when Christ returns for His church, on the last day of this evil present age. After His return everything is going to be changed.

We look forward eagerly to his second coming as it means our salvation and the worlds condemnation with the saints inheriting the earth, on this coming DAY of the Lord.

1 Peter 1:3-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

2 Peter 3:10-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

HonestScript · May 14, 2018

I dont understand why people believe in rapture before the Tribulation.

Can someone layout their talking points? I want to understand exactly why they believe this.

Jonathan.H · May 28, 2018

I have studied the events of Revelation for many years and through this study I became convinced that the rapture happens post-tribulation. I did not see any detailed post in the first few pages of this thread so I thought I would give a detailed defense of this belief. These details and much more fully explained in my new book “The Unknown Rapture Scriptures”.

The easiest way to make this convincing is to start with the commonly accepted verses of the rapture in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4. These verses have direct quotes or symbols which can be found in Old Testament prophecy. Here are some examples from the verses of Matthew 24 which speak of the rapture:

Matthew 24
v. 29 Sun/Moon/Stars Darkened and The Heavens Shaken
Joel 2:10-11
Isaiah 13:9-13
Joel3:14-16

v.30 Jesus Appears in Sky
Zechariah 9:14

v.31 Those from Four Winds/The Ends of the Heavens
Ezekiel 37:7-9
Isaiah 13:4-6

Four of these six Old Testament scriptures refer to a day called “the day of the Lord”. The day of the Lord can also be linked to 1 Thessalonians 4. The chapters and verses in the Bible were not added until over 1000 years after this book was written, so with that in mind let’s see what happens when we continue reading the next few verses after 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

1 Thessalonians 4:16 – 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Chapter 5) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

You can see that both of the main passages about the rapture occur on “the day of the Lord”. Now, where is the day of the Lord in Revelation? (underlined phrase below added by me to show day of the Lord location).

Revelation 16:14-15
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is clearly near the end of Revelation. However, the other details of the rapture are not seen here. This is because the day of the rapture (Jesus’ second coming) stretches from Revelation 14-19. The passage in this window which corresponds to the rapture is this:

Revelation 14:14-16
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

One proof Jesus’ second coming occurs in this chapter is in its first verse:

Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

If Jesus is already standing on the ground, then this must be the day of His return. There are many other ways to prove this, but I do not have the space for that here.

That is a very basic proof. You can tie Revelation 14:14-16 to every part of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Matthew 24 but that is too much for here. If you want more information you can find my book “The Unknown Rapture Scriptures” by Jonathan Hale on Amazon.

edit - fixed chart which posted unreadable

Claudia Zimmer · Jun 11, 2018

Hi dear friends! I am really excited to learn that here is a post tribulation thread. I could never speak to a christian who believes in the post trib rapture - there is no one around me. After studying the bible I came to the conclusion that the rupture must be after the tribulation.

In this sense I find it sad that there are 2 threads with opposite opinions. It is not about human opinions since I would prefer a pre trib rapture very much. In fact I am very scared of what is ahead of us. Probably the antichrist will rise in Germany where Hitler once ruled - and I would be right in the middle of the mess.

My desire is to write God's history not just survive. I feel so far away from that and I am looking forward to reading and being encouraged by your posts.

Davy · Jul 2, 2018

Claudia Zimmer said:
Hi dear friends! I am really excited to learn that here is a post tribulation thread. I could never speak to a christian who believes in the post trib rapture - there is no one around me. After studying the bible I came to the conclusion that the rupture must be after the tribulation.

In this sense I find it sad that there are 2 threads with opposite opinions. It is not about human opinions since I would prefer a pre trib rapture very much. In fact I am very scared of what is ahead of us. Probably the antichrist will rise in Germany where Hitler once ruled - and I would be right in the middle of the mess.

My desire is to write God's history not just survive. I feel so far away from that and I am looking forward to reading and being encouraged by your posts.

Hi Claudia,

I don't think you need be concerned about the coming Antichrist arising from Germany, or anywhere else in Europe. For the Antichrist to be made king over Israel (and that will be the plan as per the OT prophets), he will have to originate from among the Jews.

Think a mimic of our Lord Jesus, except as how orthodox Jews expect their version of Messiah's coming to be fulfilled. Messiah is who they are expecting, and that is who the unbelieving Jewish people will be told he is.

DaDad · Jul 23, 2018

To All,

Certainly this "safe house" has it right regarding a Post-Tribulation Rapture, and by Scripture we should find a 1,000 year Post-Tribulation occurrence:

If Scripture is correct that the "dead" arise first, and then they which are alive and remain shall be "caught up", then if we follow the "dead" then those who remain "alive" are raptured accordingly:

Rev. 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, ...
... 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

Thus, when at the end of the age, when THE REST OF THE DEAD ARE RAISED, all who are alive and remain on earth shall ascend to the New Jerusalem:

1 Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Perhaps it's the Pre/Mid/Post Tribulation-Era Rapture Doctrine which is so flawed, that makes this simple explanation so necessary and yet so Scriptural.

Thanks,
DaDad

mark kennedy · Jul 23, 2018

I accepted a pretrib rapture for years, never giving it much thought. The only option to a mid or post trib. Would be multiple resurrection separated by years. It just doesnt fit in my view, it includes everyone right at the point Christ returns.

DaDad · Jul 23, 2018

mark kennedy said:
I accepted a pretrib rapture for years, never giving it much thought. The only option to a mid or post trib. Would be multiple resurrection separated by years. It just doesnt fit in my view, it includes everyone right at the point Christ returns.

Given Rev. 20:5, it appears the "dead" are ONLY raised AFTER the Millennial Kingdom. And "those who are alive and remain" MUST follow the "dead". -- To presume otherwise would be a mistake.

Thanks,
DaDad

Copperhead · Jul 25, 2018

Darwin's Myth said:
Using biblical facts only... You decide...

Jesus said, four times, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is "at the last day".- John 6:39,40,44,54
The Apostle Paul said... the resurrection of the dead and those believers whom are alive will be caught up (raptured) together to meet the Lord in the air.(1 Thess.4:16,17). Therefore, doesn't the "rapture" also happen at the last day since it's mentioned along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

Jesus said, Immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days (Matt.24:29), Jesus will be coming in the clouds of heaven (Matt.24:30), and He will gather together (those alive and dead believers) His elect from the Earth (Matt.24:31). Wouldn't this event also be at the last day, when Jesus returns, since it's happening after the Great Tribulation?

I've heard it said, that the Church is gone off the earth before the Great Tribulation because the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1. But, the saints are mentioned in Revelation 13 and 14, during the Great Tribulation. Aren't the saints synonymous with the Church?

I would like to tackle some of your assumptions.

Yes, the resurrection of the dead is at the last day, but what dead is being referenced.... dead righteous or dead unrighteous? And the "last day" must have already occurred, as the OT saints (notice... those are NOT the Church) were resurrected in Matthew 27. Many early Church writers who either knew the Apostles or disciples of the Apostles wrote that these resurrected saints were taken to the throne of God.

I would contend that it is very solid that the righteous dead will be resurrected and taken along with those righteous who are living, before the GT period and "last day", where both righteous (GT Saints who died) and unrighteous are resurrected and the latter goes into eternal punishment.

His "elect" that you mention from Matthew 24 may not be the Believers as we understand it. After all, who is God's elect?.....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me

Israel is the name God gave Jacob, so they are interchangeable terms for the same guy, who is the patriarch of the Hebrew tribes.

Same book, same author, same elect....

Isaiah 65:9 (NKJV) I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

Even Paul in Romans considered his physical brethren, the Hebrews, God's elect. They are elect and beloved because of the Fathers (Patriarchs) of the Hebrew people.

Yes, believers are also God's elect, but they are not Israel, they are the Church. But since they have been removed prior to the GT period, the elect can also refer to the Hebrews who go thru the GT. Don't confuse election with salvation. Israel (all twelve tribes) is God's elect people, but not all of them are justified and saved. On the other hand, the Church is also the Elect of God, but in that case, only justified are part of the Church. Election simply means set apart for God's purpose. Who also is God's elect?....

Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV) “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

So we see Yeshua is God's Elect. Israel is God's Elect. And the Ekklessia (Church) is God's Elect. They are not the same entity, but they are all elect, or set apart to God.

"coming on the clouds of heaven" can also have the idea of the believers who were removed prior to the GT period who return with Him. Even the writer of Hebrews says that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Cloud in the passage mentioning Yeshua's return may not mean the fluffy things we see floating in the sky.

Saints are indeed mentioned in Revelation after the Church has been removed. Again, in Matthew 27, saints were resurrected. They were called saints but they were not the church either as the Church had not even started till 49 days later!!! So one can be classified as a saint and not be part of the Church. Likewise, after the Church is taken up, those that come to faith in the Messiah during the GT period will be considered saints, but they are not part of the unique entity currently known as the Ekklesia or Church. All saints are equal.. justified by the Messiah. But not all saints are of the same group.

jgr · Jul 26, 2018

Copperhead said:
I would like to tackle some of your assumptions.

Yes, the resurrection of the dead is at the last day, but what dead is being referenced.... dead righteous or dead unrighteous? And the "last day" must have already occurred, as the OT saints (notice... those are NOT the Church) were resurrected in Matthew 27. Many early Church writers who either knew the Apostles or disciples of the Apostles wrote that these resurrected saints were taken to the throne of God.

I would contend that it is very solid that the righteous dead will be resurrected and taken along with those righteous who are living, before the GT period and "last day", where both righteous (GT Saints who died) and unrighteous are resurrected and the latter goes into eternal punishment.

His "elect" that you mention from Matthew 24 may not be the Believers as we understand it. After all, who is God's elect?.....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me

Israel is the name God gave Jacob, so they are interchangeable terms for the same guy, who is the patriarch of the Hebrew tribes.

Same book, same author, same elect....

Isaiah 65:9 (NKJV) I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

Even Paul in Romans considered his physical brethren, the Hebrews, God's elect. They are elect and beloved because of the Fathers (Patriarchs) of the Hebrew people.

Yes, believers are also God's elect, but they are not Israel, they are the Church. But since they have been removed prior to the GT period, the elect can also refer to the Hebrews who go thru the GT. Don't confuse election with salvation. Israel (all twelve tribes) is God's elect people, but not all of them are justified and saved. On the other hand, the Church is also the Elect of God, but in that case, only justified are part of the Church. Election simply means set apart for God's purpose. Who also is God's elect?....

Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV) “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

So we see Yeshua is God's Elect. Israel is God's Elect. And the Ekklessia (Church) is God's Elect. They are not the same entity, but they are all elect, or set apart to God.

"coming on the clouds of heaven" can also have the idea of the believers who were removed prior to the GT period who return with Him. Even the writer of Hebrews says that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Cloud in the passage mentioning Yeshua's return may not mean the fluffy things we see floating in the sky.

Saints are indeed mentioned in Revelation after the Church has been removed. Again, in Matthew 27, saints were resurrected. They were called saints but they were not the church either as the Church had not even started till 49 days later!!! So one can be classified as a saint and not be part of the Church. Likewise, after the Church is taken up, those that come to faith in the Messiah during the GT period will be considered saints, but they are not part of the unique entity currently known as the Ekklesia or Church. All saints are equal.. justified by the Messiah. But not all saints are of the same group.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is a remnant who are the elect by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The elect remnant has obtained grace, through faith. (Romans 11:5).

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

The elect remnant, those who have obtained grace through faith, are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

“...flesh profiteth nothing...” (John 6:63)

Copperhead · Jul 26, 2018

Romans 9:3-5 (TLV) For I would pray that I myself were cursed, banished from Messiah for the sake of my people—my own flesh and blood, 4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Torah and the Temple service and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs—and from them, according to the flesh, the Messiah, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.

Belong is present tense, not past as some might suppose. It goes to what I stated earlier.... one can be elect and not saved, but all saved are elect. The Messiah was elect, all Israel is elect, and those who place their trust in Messiah are elect. Even a gentile ruler was once God's "anointed" and technically His elect.

Paul's heart is for the unbelieving brethren (Israelites) who he still maintains identity with and, if necessary, would allow himself to be cursed for their sakes if it would cause them to come to faith in Messiah. So it is not some believing remnant that Paul is talking about, it is all Hebrews. One of the reasons that I think Paul is the author behind the book of Hebrews. Yet in the midst of his heartbreak for his fellow Hebrews that have yet to come to faith, Paul maintains that to them still belongs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the scripture, the Temple service, and the promises. In other words, Paul is confirming what Isaiah said that all of Jacob (Israel) is YHVH's elect.

It is equally true that not all of Israel (physically) are the true Israel of faith of the Patriarchs. But they are still elect, even in unbelief, for the sake of the Patriarchs. Ezekiel is very clear that Israel will be restored (as it has been) initially in unbelief. They are just not justified to God thru Messiah yet. There is indeed a remnant that have come to faith ever since the first century, and even more so today, and those are joined with the Ekklesia. But they retain their physical identity as Israelites. The passage above, even Paul retains his Hebrew identity. But I think we can all agree that he is part of the Ekklesia.

So, the Ekklesia (Church) is not physical Israel, contrary to some theology, and Israel is not the Ekklesia. Some of Israel are saved, but not all are. All within the Ekklesia are saved, else they are not part of the Ekklesia.

And as for their restoration... Praise YHWH! Hosea was clear that national Israel would have to acknowledge their offense of rejecting the Messiah and cry out for His return before He would. And Yeshua Himself confirmed this in Matthew 23. Now that they are in the land per the Prophecy.... WOW! Our redemption draws near!!!! Makes me giddy just thinking about it!

Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Natura non facit saltum

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Newbie

Justin

New Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Natura non facit saltum

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Similar threads