Control Vs. Love

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination .

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

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We all know the answer in our heart but , and this is a big but.

In life we learn, and in learning finely we all get to the fact that love is the only way.

Grip Docility said:

I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian.

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Neither am I, neither is Ravi... I believe that's the point of the article.. they both have some correct points, but neither is fully right.

But that man is a peace maker. Excellent article.

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Ravi is one of my favorite apologists. Glad you liked it.

Grip Docility said:

Interesting. So your view is void of extrapolation possibilities?

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When all I did was list scripture, why do you think it is my view?

Grip Docility said:

I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian.

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I'm well acquainted with your position, and the above statement is false.

The question posed in the original post is loaded and fraught with false premise. I would try to explain it to you, but I've seen the way you debate. In the battle between the head and the wall, the wall always wins, but the head is always to blame.

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination .

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

Click to expand...

I idea of "predestination" is ridiculous and not Scripture in spite of any man's theology he claims is truth even "by the Spirit".

"Predestined to heaven or, hell", "predestine to heaven only but requires a choice" blah, blah, blah!

The bible, in the autographed language, honoring all grammatical inflections that the writer wrote and intended in the God-breathed Scripture that any 1st century illiterate could understand, is merely stating that God is before(pro, NOT PRE) you in your life directing traffic and leading: right here, right now!

This lifestyle requires "faith" which is a noun and means: that which you place your confidence in or, what you trust. My faith is not blind! I can point to it--the God-breath Scriptures! I personally do not "believe" in Jesus. That is for losers! But, I do trust Him is all of His ways which most certainly are not mine! I do NOT have enough information to go my way as I am NOT the Alpha and Omega--He is! Why would I foolishly compete?!

Jesus always said, "ones-keep-on-trusting(present participle) in Me". He never said "believe in Me' which is how it is erroneously translated into English.

The word is used like a king who sends out his slave to go before him to prepare the king's path for his journey. They are both in the same time but, not in the same place. In like manner(we are not king's and God is not our slave), God is preparing our path and that, only as much as we have developed a capacity to follow. A little here, a little there. Do not condemn yourself for being human.

When I first stepped out into that noun "faith", I stepped onto an invisible, to me, bridge! Once I crossed that chasm of faith and hope, put there by erroneous theology, I looked back and saw that I had walked on solid ground!

Thank God, I will never be the same again: blowing here and there by the trickery of men!

It is a narrow path that leads to life that few find. Do you really think the translators and the clergy found it?!

If God controlled human nature, all human beings would behave identically. How could saints and mass murderers both be the product of God's control?

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination ... Which is Correct biblically and why?

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The Bible does NOT teach that God predestines some people for Heaven (salvation) and others for Hell (damnation).

Predestination is clearly for those who are already saved and will eventually be perfected -- "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29; 1 John 3:1-3).

All human being have free will, and it was NOT eradicated after the Fall. Joshua told the Israelites "Choose you this day whom you will serve..." (Joshua 24:15). They had to make a choice to either serve the living God or idols (false gods).

Even though all men are spiritually "dead in their trespasses and sins", it is the supernatural power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit which brings them to repentance and salvation (Acts 2:36-41).

God gives humanity the choice to either obey or disobey the Gospel. He also commands all men everywhere to repent, since He desires the salvation of all. But He compels no one to believe.

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination.

Click to expand...

"Free will" is not even a theological term, much more a theological system, and "Theistic" can apply even across religions outside of Christianity, and "Predestination" is very much a Christian doctrine, not a theology, but one of many doctrines that are part of a network of doctrines which provide a kind of framework, aiding or hindering interpretation. I say "very much a Christian doctrine" because it's not that only one group of Christians believe in it, the term itself is found in Scripture, but rather it is defined and interpreted differently. The same goes for "free will", there is a whole spectrum of different versions of "free will", from libertarian free will (or incompatiblist free will) to types of compatibilist free will to hard determinism which would be a denial of free will. Goodness there are a number of different types of determinism. Now personally, I hold to a compatibility between limited free will and the Sovereignty of God, it is a good place to be both biblically and looking at the debate historically throughout Church history.

Grip Docility said:

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

Click to expand...

I truly wish people would not mistake any and every type of determinism for being Calvinistic, because making this mistake just distorts the truth. Fatalism as it's called is not Calvinism at all. Hard determinism while not fatalism, leans a bit too hard towards God's sovereignty (and not enough towards the responsibility of choices), a soft determinism or compatibilism has a nice Biblical balance between the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man wherein he makes choices which are not coerced, rather free within the nature of said will, but even so guided by desires, and yet often limited by any number of variables. Another way of stating that is, people often desire what they do not have, and at the same time may lack the means necessary to fulfill that desire. That's just one small way of bringing out the point. So much more could be said, but I've said so much on this topic before, going into the same details and arguments etc. over and over, is wearing a bit thin, in a more tiring and exhausted way, to be honest. God is love, and apart from His love, we have no reference point for understanding anything about love. God is also sovereign, He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immutable, Holy, most wise King of the universe. When I read the Scriptures, I see many different ways in which the Lord interacts with His creation. At times directly, and other times indirectly, at times He allows things, other times He does not, at times He intervenes. For what can be known, there's just no way to figure out God all the way. He's too great for our finite understanding to fully wrap our minds around. For every answer there seems to be three more questions. I am content to embrace both love and predestination, these are both taught in Scripture along with choices (not that they're free from nature or desires, etc.). Embrace the complexity that if life!

Apologetic_Warrior said:

"Free will" is not even a theological term, much more a theological system, and "Theistic" can apply even across religions outside of Christianity, and "Predestination" is very much a Christian doctrine, not a theology, but one of many doctrines that are part of a network of doctrines which provide a kind of framework, aiding or hindering interpretation. I say "very much a Christian doctrine" because it's not that only one group of Christians believe in it, the term itself is found in Scripture, but rather it is defined and interpreted differently. The same goes for "free will", there is a whole spectrum of different versions of "free will", from libertarian free will (or incompatiblist free will) to types of compatibilist free will to hard determinism which would be a denial of free will. Goodness there are a number of different types of determinism. Now personally, I hold to a compatibility between limited free will and the Sovereignty of God, it is a good place to be both biblically and looking at the debate historically throughout Church history.



I truly wish people would not mistake any and every type of determinism for being Calvinistic, because making this mistake just distorts the truth. Fatalism as it's called is not Calvinism at all. Hard determinism while not fatalism, leans a bit too hard towards God's sovereignty (and not enough towards the responsibility of choices), a soft determinism or compatibilism has a nice Biblical balance between the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man wherein he makes choices which are not coerced, rather free within the nature of said will, but even so guided by desires, and yet often limited by any number of variables. Another way of stating that is, people often desire what they do not have, and at the same time may lack the means necessary to fulfill that desire. That's just one small way of bringing out the point. So much more could be said, but I've said so much on this topic before, going into the same details and arguments etc. over and over, is wearing a bit thin, in a more tiring and exhausted way, to be honest. God is love, and apart from His love, we have no reference point for understanding anything about love. God is also sovereign, He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immutable, Holy, most wise King of the universe. When I read the Scriptures, I see many different ways in which the Lord interacts with His creation. At times directly, and other times indirectly, at times He allows things, other times He does not, at times He intervenes. For what can be known, there's just no way to figure out God all the way. He's too great for our finite understanding to fully wrap our minds around. For every answer there seems to be three more questions. I am content to embrace both love and predestination, these are both taught in Scripture along with choices (not that they're free from nature or desires, etc.). Embrace the complexity that if life!

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I like a lot of what you said and absolutely HATE some of your words because they are not life. The zOE-life is in the here and now which makes "predestination" stupid. The bible is not about where you go when you die. It's about where you go when you live the life of God's promise right here, right now!

In the end, God separates the sheep from the goats. Only sheep follow the Shepherd as Jesus is not a goat herder(not "I never", but: "when" did I know you?").

We are not here to make decisions about things we couldn't possibly understand. Jesus said, "I set before you life and death, choose life that you may live". He also said, "You did not choose Me...". Choices are for losers with a gun at their head and a knife at their back! As if God is saying, "I dare you!"

We are here as followers only. He is the Great and Good Shepherd. As David indicated, we are being shepherded which does not require "free will" thinking. It requires followship because obedience is far to strong a word to translate hupokoE which basically means to listen.

As far as the difference between "bible doctrine" and "theology", there is none! They are all purely human concepts imposed upon God's Word based upon a theological prejudice of what those words Must mean to support erroneous concepts of doctrine, theology and, God forbid, truth.

It's all wood, hay and stubble fit only for the fire and burned so we can BBQ their sacred cows! I am not lying! Did I use that verse from 1 Corinthians correctly? Or, do you believe it has to do with us and not what teachers teach which is most obviously the context?

I like James' "Dogma" which he gave to Paul to give to the Corinthians which Paul largely refuted. It was just a few sentences.

I think that if anyone really wants to know what the bible truly says must study the vastness of the entire concept that baptismos is, which is a tremendous opportunity as the entire bible spiderwebs from that and to that. If you think that I'm referring to water baptism then, your wet behind the ears!

The word means: to submerge something into a liquid which effects a permanent change. Such as dying a cloth or, making pickles!

I think I have been pickled! It's the 'Spiri't of gin I'm filled with! NO!

The water is figurative the Word of God is literal!

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination .

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

Click to expand...

Well clearly theistic predistination and us poor idiots who believe in free will are predestined by God to get it wrong.

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination .

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

Click to expand...

To be a little more serious you can justify whichever theology you hold be selecting the right verses.

However if one uses all relevant verses and apply God-given reasoning predestination loses out big time.

Haipule said:

I like a lot of what you said and absolutely HATE some of your words because they are not life. The zOE-life is in the here and now which makes "predestination" stupid. The bible is not about where you go when you die. It's about where you go when you live the life of God's promise right here, right now!

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Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,


There is an Adam in all of us that is uncomfortable with, even more concerning predestination. But as Christians we are called to crucify Adam daily in Christ so to speak. The Bible is about Christ, from cover to cover. And He say's;

Matt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

There are other verses but the hope here is that we allow Scripture to inform and shape our thoughts, be they transformed as to the mind of Christ. A line from one of Rich Mullins songs (Creed) comes to mind, it's about the truth of Scripture and he say's; "I did not make it, no it is making me".

Haipule said:

In the end, God separates the sheep from the goats. Only sheep follow the Shepherd as Jesus is not a goat herder(not "I never", but: "when" did I know you?").

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Agree.

Haipule said:

We are not here to make decisions about things we couldn't possibly understand. Jesus said, "I set before you life and death, choose life that you may live". He also said, "You did not choose Me...". Choices are for losers with a gun at their head and a knife at their back! As if God is saying, "I dare you!"

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And yet we make choices all the time and we have our preferences. Every time I go through McDonald's drive through, I have to make choices, sometimes those choices are easy, sometimes not so much. Due to my health issues, I can choose food from the menu that will likely not bother my stomach so much, or I can choose food that I do like, but will likely effect my stomach with undesirable results.

Haipule said:

We are here as followers only. He is the Great and Good Shepherd. As David indicated, we are being shepherded which does not require "free will" thinking. It requires followship because obedience is far to strong a word to translate hupokoE which basically means to listen.

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Essentially I agree, however, in the day to day process of sanctification we should note in Scripture there are many implications of choice, "be renewed in the Spirit of your mind" (Eph 4:23), "take up his cross daily" (Luke 9:23), "be transformed" (Rom 12:2), "put on the whole armor of God" (Eph 6:11). I agree we should be concerned with the will of God and not our own will and desires, however I would be a fool and liar not to suppose my will and desires do not get in the way or that I do not stumble and fall, like a child learning to crawl, walk, and run.

Haipule said:

As far as the difference between "bible doctrine" and "theology", there is none! They are all purely human concepts imposed upon God's Word based upon a theological prejudice of what those words Must mean to support erroneous concepts of doctrine, theology and, God forbid, truth.

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Nah man, that's just the Eastern Mysticism of Panthestic Hindu-ish denials in making distinctions type of thinking. Evil is just an illusion they say! Guns n' Roses used their Illusion to gain fame and fortune for a time. As an aside, separating sheep from goats is making a distinction just so you know.

Haipule said:

It's all wood, hay and stubble fit only for the fire and burned so we can BBQ their sacred cows! I am not lying! Did I use that verse from 1 Corinthians correctly? Or, do you believe it has to do with us and not what teachers teach which is most obviously the context?

I like James' "Dogma" which he gave to Paul to give to the Corinthians which Paul largely refuted. It was just a few sentences.

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I'm in the James and Paul are in agreement camp, where the fellowship is sweet as honey.

Haipule said:

I think that if anyone really wants to know what the bible truly says must study the vastness of the entire concept that baptismos is, which is a tremendous opportunity as the entire bible spiderwebs from that and to that. If you think that I'm referring to water baptism then, your wet behind the ears!

The word means: to submerge something into a liquid which effects a permanent change. Such as dying a cloth or, making pickles!

I think I have been pickled! It's the 'Spiri't of gin I'm filled with! NO!

The water is figurative the Word of God is literal!

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I believe Spiritual regeneration must first take place, the dead will and desires resurrected, the heart of stone replaced, the scales removed from the eyes, be brought into the light where deeds are exposed and repentance is a response to changes brought about by the Spirit of God alone.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

To know what the Bible truly say's requires spiritual discernment (which the natural man does not receive), and Christ say's;

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination .

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

Click to expand...

Love is all the more authentic to the extent that it's freely chosen and exercised. And love is the fullest definition of man's justice, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. It's what faith is meant to lead to or blossom into. Love is what motivates man to righteousness. It's the image of God we're to be transformed into and it's the virtue we'll actually be judged on. All God's efforts in bringing man to salvation involve drawing man into cooperation with this choice, to love, first by showing him what it really is, then by inviting him to participate in it, by participating in Him.

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination .

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

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Both are biblically correct (that is the doctrine taught by the church I attend, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church). God is Sovereign and has predestinated all things. We also have the option to love him.

Grip Docility said:

Immediately, I biased the debate and know this. However, there are two factions of theology. Free Will and Theistic Predestination .

Many forms of understanding exist of these two terms, but one boils down to an option to Love, while another boils down to Control for God’s purpose, desire and good pleasure.

Which is Correct biblically and why?

Click to expand...

I don't believe in God predestining some to heaven and others not. I believe in God predestining those who follow Jesus to heaven. Who those will be only God knows, it's fore-known, not fore-chosen.

God didn't send his Son to die for mankind if it wasn't possible for everyone to be saved.

God's will is the big wheel. Our free will is the smaller wheel inside the bigger wheel. Our free will is not independent of God's will.