The Bowls of Wrath - Key Detail in Daniel

Kevin Snow said:

Exactly, this TribulationSigns can't take a hint. He is deluded with his own ideas and has totally missed it.

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You spoke too soon before you even see my response. You have no idea what you are talking about!

He can't see the basic fact that when it says they gnaw their tongues that they gnaw their tongues. He's got to blow it up into his own thinking.

This is what Christ said,

"The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood." ~John 7:18

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Huh? I testified with God's Word by allowing Scripture to be its own interpretation. Not private interpretation. I don't expect you to understand because you lack spiritual understanding which is why many professed Christians have no idea what is going on in their church. Signs of time!

ThatCanadianDude_88 said:

I believe that the pivotal event in Revelations is the 7th and final trumpet. The reign of the anti-christ ends, for "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ."

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A pivotal event is when the 7th trumpet blows - but what it signals is that Satan/his angel's invisible kingdom of Babylon the Great is at that point, God is going to dismantle from it having dominion over the world. Satan's kingdom will have a time, times, half times left - then he will be a terror no more.

In Revelation 12 is the 1260 days which is the testimony time of the two witnesses. The seven trumpet blows and there is a war in the second heaven and Satan and his angles cast down to earth. Babylon is fallen is fallen. Revelation 18 compares the fall of Babylon the great as to like a great trading city.

btw, the 1260 days does not equal exactly 42 months like a person would normally think. And the time, times, half times does not either.

1260 days +3 1/2 days = 1263.5 days, leaving 1256.5 days left in the 7 years, the beast rules without being impeded by the two witnesses who will be gone from the earth. The bible calls that amount of 1256.6 days as 42 months. Which is why it says 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and differently 1260 days in Revelation 11:3, the very next verse. The two are not "exactly" equal as used.

In Revelation 12, 1260 days + 3 1/2 days + the amount of earth time that passes for the war in heaven - leaves a time, times, half times in the 7 years.

ThatCanadianDude_88 said:

It is also my opinion that the 1335th day represents the establishment of the Messianic kingdom, when "the knowledge of God will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea".

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The 1335 days is the length of the great tribulation. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is setup for everyone to have to worship, the statue image of the beast.

So counting backwards from day 2520, the 1335 days, the great tribulation will begin on day 1185 of the 7yers.

Then, if you were to count forward from day 1185, the 1290 days, then that would take you to day 2475. It is on that day that the events of the sixth seal take place - the cosmos parting and the world seeing Jesus before the throne of God in heaven.

The kings of the earth, the beast, the false prophet, the dragon are given the 45 days left in the 7 years, to prepare to fight Jesus, gathering their armies at Armageddon. Why do the heathen rage and imagine a vain thing, Psalms 2.

ThatCanadianDude_88 said:

The return of Christ in glory at the seventh and final trumpet on the 1290th day marks the end of the anti-christ's reign, at which point the Messianic kingdom is foreseen and Christ is united with His church, effectively removing the Holy Spirit from the earth.

During this 45 day period that follows, Christ presents his purified and complete bride to the Father in heaven, the marriage supper of the lamb takes place along with the Bema seat judgment (crowns and rewards), meanwhile on the earth the 7 bowls of wrath are being poured on an unrepentant mankind in quick succession in judgement for his rebellion and spiritual harlotry.

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Canadian friend, do you know what's wrong with that? Jesus's returns with the bride to end the beast's reign and execute judgement on the armies gathered to make war on him. It's in Revelation 19.

The bowls of wrath are poured out on the beast's kingdom in the text. So the 1290th day does not mark the end of the beast's reign (you referred to him as the antichrist - not knowing any better, but the person is the beast at that time, no longer the Antichrist).

The 1335th day does mark the end of the beast's reign, though.

Douggg said:

A pivotal event is when the 7th trumpet blows - but what it signals is that Satan/his angel's invisible kingdom of Babylon the Great is at that point, God is going to dismantle from it having dominion over the world. Satan's kingdom will have a time, times, half times left - then he will be a terror no more.

In Revelation 12 is the 1260 days which is the testimony time of the two witnesses. The seven trumpet blows and there is a war in the second heaven and Satan and his angles cast down to earth. Babylon is fallen is fallen. Revelation 18 compares the fall of Babylon the great as to like a great trading city.

btw, the 1260 does not equal exactly 42 months and the time, times, half times do not either.

1260 days +3 1/2 days = 1263.5 days, leaving 1256.5 days left in the 7 years, the beast rules without being impeded by the two witnesses who will be gone from the earth. The bible calls that amount of 1256.6 days as 42 months. Which is why it says 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and differently 1260 days in Revelation 11:3, the very next verse. The two are not "exactly" equal as used.

In Revelation 12, 1260 days + 3 1/2 days + the amount of earth time that passes for the war in heaven - leaves a time, times, half times in the 7 years.

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You have to keep in mind that the bible uses the biblical year which is 360 days exactly. so 1260/360=3.5 years.

Also the phrase "time, times and half a time" are 3.5 years exactly: time = 1 year, times = 2 years, 1/2 time = 1/2 year.

Enoch 74:2 And these serve four days, which are not calculated in the calculation of the year.
Enoch 74:3 Respecting them, men greatly err, for these luminaries truly serve, in the dwelling place of the world, one day in the first gate, one in the third gate, one in the fourth gate, and one in the sixth gate.
Enoch 74:4 And the harmony of the world becomes complete every three hundred and sixty-fourth state of it. For the signs,
Enoch 74:5 The seasons,
Enoch 74:6 The years,

So the bible uses a 360 day calendar, not counting the 4 extra days. But it also explains that because of sin the times of this calendar will change and the seasons will not follow their respective courses as they should. (Enoch 79)

Kevin Snow said:

You have to keep in mind that the bible uses the biblical year which is 360 days exactly. so 1260/360=3.5 years.

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1260 days in Revelation could be equated as being 3.5 years. Although elsewhere in the bible, years are used, when the focus is to be on years. But the 42 months as used in Revelation is not exactly 1260 days, but 1256.5 days.

The time, times, half times, is not exactly 1260 days either, as used in Revelation. How many days it represents is unknown, because the amount of earth time that passes for the war in heaven to take place is not given.

Exactly the first half of the 7 years
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, 12:6

Generally speaking, the second half of the 7 years
42 months - Revelation 11:2, 13:5
times, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14

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Kevin, the time, times, half times is not exactly 3.5 years. It is close, but not exact.

The bible would have used 1260 days if 3.5 years exactly were meant.

Douggg said:

1260 days in Revelation could be equated as being 3.5 years. Although elsewhere in the bible, years are used, when the focus is to be on years. But the 42 months as used in Revelation is not exactly 1260 days, but 1256.5 days.

The time, times, half times, is not exactly 1260 days either, as used in Revelation. How many days it represents is unknown, because the amount of earth time that passes for the war in heaven to take place is not given.

Exactly the first half of the 7 years
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, 12:6

Generally speaking, the second half of the 7 years
42 months - Revelation 11:2, 13:5
times, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14

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No I would say it is all the exact same time: 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days, "time, times and half a time", half of one week.

Kevin Snow said:

No I would say it is all the exact same time: 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days, "time, times and half a time", half of one week.

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Well, you can say that. But it does not make sense, to say 42 months in one verse and in the very next verse say 1260 days.

The reason it is important to note the distinction is because the timeline and order of events must fit those distinctively different timeframe expressions.

In days, the timeline would be....

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 1256.5 days = 2520 days, the 7 years.

Inserting the 42 months for the 1256.5 days....

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (as used in Revelation) = 2520 days, the 7 years

Douggg said:

Well, you can say that. But it does not make sense, to say 42 months in one verse and in the very next verse say 1260 days.

The reason it is important to note the distinction is because the timeline and order of events must fit those distinctively different timeframe expressions.

In days, the timeline would be....

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 1256.5 days = 2520 days, the 7 years.

Inserting the 42 months for the 1256.5 days....

1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (as used in Revelation) = 2520 days, the 7 years

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Ok, what is the basis of your claim for this random 3.5 days? There is none of that in the bible. Are you using OUR calendar to tell how many days are in 42 months? It doesn't use our calendar.

1260/42=30

The bible uses a straight 30 days for every month. The calculation of the year is actually complicated when it is 360 days of twelve 30 day months.

Kevin Snow said:

Ok, what is the basis of your claim for this random 3.5 days? There is none of that in the bible. Are you using OUR calendar to tell how many days are in 42 months? It doesn't use our calendar.

1260/42=30

The bible uses a straight 30 days for every month. The calculation of the year is actually complicated when it is 360 days of twelve 30 day months.

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Kevin. I will label each segment in blue, and you will see where and why the 3.5 days factor in.

1260 days (the testimony time of the two witnesses) + 3.5 days (their bodies lad dead in the streets before coming back to life and ascend to heaven) + 1256.5 days (remaining in the 2520 days that the beast will reign unimpeded by the two witness who are gone from the earth) = 2520 days

The 42 months in the case as it is used in Revelation is 1256.5 days. It is not 1260 days as a person is inclined to think.

Douggg said:

Kevin. I will label each segment in blue, and you will see where the 3.5 days factor in.

1260 days (the testimony time of the two witnesses) + 3.5 days (their bodies lad dead in the streets before coming back to life and ascend to heaven) + 1256.5 days (remaining in the 2520 days that the beast will reign unimpeded by the two witness who are gone from the earth) = 2520 days

The 42 months in the case as it is used in Revelation is 1256.5 days. It is not 1260 days as a person is inclined to think.

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OK, all I needed was that you overlap the 3.5 days it takes for the 2 witnesses to be resurrected. There is no real reason to overlap this period however. The second 42 month period could start immediately after the first 42 month period and the time it takes for the 2 witnesses to resurrect goes into the second 42 month period.

In this way there is no extra 3.5 day period to be calculated in the 7 year covenant of the beast.

Kevin Snow said:

OK, all I needed was that you overlap the 3.5 days it takes for the 2 witnesses to be resurrected. There is no real reason to overlap this period however. The second 42 month period could start immediately after the first 42 month period and the time it takes for the 2 witnesses to resurrect goes into the second 42 month period.

In this way there is no extra 3.5 day period to be calculated in the 7 year covenant of the beast.

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Kevin there is no extra 3.5 day period added to the 7 years. The 3.5 day period fits within the 7 years.

There is is also no such thing as the covenant of the beast. There is a common misconception that the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is some sort of peace treaty. But not so.

There is the confirming of the covenant for 7 years which begins the 7 years. That confirming of the covenant for 7 years is something the person does when the Jews think he is the messiah - before he later becomes the beast.

Playing the part of the messiah, anointed the King of Israel - he makes a big speech from the temple mount, confirming the Mt Sinai covenant that God gave the children of Israel the promised land as theirs forever.

He is not doing it as something he just fancies to do. Moses made as requirement back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, that all future leaders of Israel, make the speech to the nation of Israel, on a 7 year cycle - which is why it says "for one week (7 years)" in Daniel 9:27. Moses made the requirement so that future generations would not ever forget of what took place coming out Egypt and why they are living in the land of Israel.

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Kevin there is no 42 months expression used for the first half. The first half is the exact 1260 day expression.

The two places that the 42 months are expressed, Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 13:5 are both generally speaking the second half.

The way it is structured, the like time expressions go together.

The two 1260 day expression verses are things that take place in the first half.

The two 42 month expression verses are things that take place in the second half.

The three time, times, half times expression verses are things that take place in the second half.

Douggg said:

Kevin there is no extra 3.5 day period added to the 7 years. The 3.5 day period fits within the 7 years.

There is is also no such thing as the covenant of the beast. There is a common misconception that the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is some sort of peace treaty.

There is the confirming of the covenant for 7 years which begins the 7 years. That confirming of the covenant for 7 years is something the person does when the Jews think he is the messiah - before he later becomes the beast.

Playing the part of the messiah, anointed the King of Israel - he makes a big speech from the temple mount, confirming the Mt Sinai covenant that God gave the children of Israel the promised land as theirs forever.

He is not doing it as something he just fancies to do. Mose made as requirement back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, that all future leaders of Israel, made the speech to the nation of Israel, on a 7 year cycle - which is why it says "for one week (7 years)" in Daniel 9:27. Moses made the requirement so that future generations would not ever forget of what took place coming out Egypt and why they are living in the land of Israel.

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Kevin there is no 42 months expression used for the first half. The first half is the exact 1260 day expression.

The two places that the 42 months are expressed, Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 13:5 are both generally speaking the second half.

The way it is structured, the like time expressions go together.

The two 1260 day expression verses are things that take place in the first half.

The two 42 month expression verses are things that take place in the second half.

The three time, times, half times expression verses are things that take place in the second half.

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This model does not fit with scripture. The strong covenant of one week which is made is split into 2 42 month periods. The first 42 month period is when the armies of the man of lawlessness trample the courts of the temple. During this time, the 2 witnesses are performing their prophesying of 1260 days (also 42 months). So these two times overlap. After they are killed, the abomination of desolation gets set up to begin the second 42 month period which will complete the week of the covenant of the man of lawlessness.

That's how it is understood.

Kevin Snow said:

This model does not fit with scripture. The strong covenant of one week which is made is split into 2 42 month periods. The first 42 month period is when the armies of the man of lawlessness trample the courts of the temple.

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Not hardly. The Jews and the rest of the world be saying "peace and safety" thinking they have entered the messianic age and animal sacrifices will have begun again. And that the person is their messiah, anointed the King of Israel. That's what makes the person the Antichrist. The King of Israel (illegitimate), instead of and against the rightful King of Israel - Jesus.

The 42 months which the armies of the beast trample the outer court, that is, Jerusalem, is the second half after the beast has killed the two witnesses.

Douggg said:

Not hardly. The Jews and the rest of the world be saying "peace and safety" thinking they have entered the messianic age and animal sacrifices will have begun again. And that the person is their messiah, anointed the King of Israel. That's what makes the person the Antichrist. The King of Israel (illegitimate), instead of and against the rightful King of Israel - Jesus.

The 42 months which the armies of the beast trample the outer court, that is, Jerusalem, is the second half after the beast has killed the two witnesses.

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The antichrist is NOT and NEVER will be the king of Israel. The king of the NORTH is NOT ISRAEL.

From you came one who plotted evil against the LORD, a worthless counselor. ~Nahum 1:11

The antichrist is born out of Nineveh but rises to power in another nation in the north country through his wickedness.

Please get all that anti-Israel dogma out. It is not scriptural. Do you not understand that there must be a temple with the evening and morning sacrifices being offered daily for many years before the man of lawlessness is revealed? And there will be a leader in Israel all that time. No you are quite wrong. And I could explain to you what exactly goes down but at this point in time I won't. It's not time.

Kevin Snow said:

During this time, the 2 witnesses are performing their prophesying of 1260 days (also 42 months). So these two times overlap. After they are killed, the abomination of desolation gets set up to begin the second 42 month period which will complete the week of the covenant of the man of lawlessness.

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Kevin, I want to stop and think about this a little more.

Why are they in a war with the beast?

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

They are at war with the beast because the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast has been made - which Jesus said for the Jews to flee into the mountains. The two witnesses are at war with the beast because he tries to stop the Jew from fleeing and they two witnesses are calling down all kinds of plagues while the Jews escape.

The 1260 days and the 42 months don't overlap. The 1260 days of the two witnesses first half; the 42 months the second half that the beast's armies overrun and occupy Jerusalem - until Jesus comes.

Douggg said:

Kevin, I want to stop and think about this a little more.

Why are they in a war with the beast?

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

They are at war with the beast because the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast has been made - which Jesus said for the Jews to flee into the mountains. The two witnesses are at war with the beast because he tries to stop the Jew from fleeing and they two witnesses are calling down all kinds of plagues while the Jews escape.

The 1260 days and the 42 months don't overlap. The 1260 days of the two witnesses first half; the 42 months the second half that the beast's armies overrun and occupy Jerusalem - until Jesus comes.

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Not at all. Israel is not even in the war at all but it is a war of the king of the South and the king of the North. Israel is the glorious land and is an innocent bystander. The king of the North at one time thinks he can take Israel for himself but is actually turned back for his insolence, the commander, that leader of Israel turns back his insolence upon him for it is not the time.

Then the man of lawlessness comes into power and breaks every rule of war because he is seeking to end everything. He comes into the glorious land, Israel, and for 42 months battles with it there to gain entry into the temple. The two witnesses are fighting during this time to stop him and it comes down to him fighting the two witnesses in order to finally gain entry into the temple. This is when the man of lawlessness receives his mortal wound but instead of dying, through sorcery, cheats death and then with a roar and a flood of waters he kills the two witnesses and they leave their bodies dead there on the ground. Then and ONLY then can he enter the temple; over the dead bodies of the two witnesses. And that starts the second 42 month period in which the man of lawlessness has full control and starts killing all the saints, everyone who does not take the mark of himself. Then after this period ends, the rapture happens, the bowls of wrath commence and after the wrath has finished, Christ returns and begins the 1000 year reign.

Kevin Snow said:

Please get all that anti-Israel dogma out.

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Kevin, saying that the Jews will accept another as their King is what Jesus referred to in John 5:43.

It is not anti-Israel dogma. When the person commits the transgression of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:3-4, claiming to be God, the Jews will be mortified, and will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel - thus ending his time as the Antichrist.

Put the prefix "Anti' in front of christ and you get the function the Antichrist. The christ refers to the promised great King of Israel, descended from King David, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety among other things.


Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

John 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Antichrist will be someone who becomes the King of Israel, someone who God did not send to be their king- that's what Jesus was talking about in John 5:43.