is Mass biblical?

DamianWarS

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I've heard it said Mass is biblical and links like the following are cited:
THE MASS IN THE VISION OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN

What I see is a mash up of verses in Revelation acted out in some sort of tableau style—can that be called biblical? I know it all points to biblical meaning when dissected (as the link above points) but it seems like a cheat to say Mass is biblical as the actual event is not found in the bible.
 

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The event as it stands is not; but it is a collection of many themes and ideas.

Most of them are clearly Biblical, although it could be argued that some parts may not be. The featured part is the Lords Supper, which is clearly a Biblical event that Christ told his followers to repeat. There are also Scripture readings galore, preaching, and hymns of praise. I dont see much there to distinguish the Mass from the worship services of most other churches except that theirs is not as elaborate.
 
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dreadnought

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I've heard it said Mass is biblical and links like the following are cited:
THE MASS IN THE VISION OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN

What I see is a mash up of verses in Revelation acted out in some sort of tableau style—can that be called biblical? I know it all points to biblical meaning when dissected (as the link above points) but it seems like a cheat to say Mass is biblical as the actual event is not found in the bible.
If you are suggesting Christians not get together once a week, I think you are wrong.
 
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TuxAme

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The Mass is "Biblical" as far as, if you go to a Mass, you're going to be pelted with explicit verses from Scripture, and all of the sights, smells and sounds are going to harken back to Scripture. It's not "Biblical" as far as, you'll find a step by step outline for how it should go. But then you could argue that about any Christian service- there's not a rulebook for "this needs to be done at this time, and on this day you have to do this extra stuff". What we have in Scripture are a few key pieces that describe what must occur, and the rest is left for us to uncover from the early Church writings.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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The event as it stands is not; but it is a collection of many themes and ideas.

Most of them are clearly Biblical, although it could be argued that some parts may not be. The featured part is the Lords Supper, which is clearly a Biblical event that Christ told his followers to repeat. There are also Scripture readings galore, preaching, and hymns of praise. I dont see much there to distinguish the Mass from the worship services of most other churches except that theirs is not as elaborate.
There are things in Mormonic worship that are Biblical, but it is the distinctives which are the issue.

For one, there simply is no Catholic priesthood manifest in the the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), most specifically Acts thru Revelation.

In the NT, besides the apostles and deacons, pastors are called presbuteros=senior and episkopos=overseer, which refers to those in one office, (Titus 1:5-7; cf. Acts 20:17,28) but which does not describe a separate sacerdotal class of believers, which in Greek are called “hiereus” (priest) and “archiereus" (high priest) collectively over 280 times, which distinctive word the Spirit of Christ never uses for NT pastors, but which Catholicism translates for her clergy, due to an imposed functional equivalence, supposing NT pastors engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry as their unique primary active function ("most of all to offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice" - Pastoral Reflections on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Cardinal John J. O'Conner) , this clergy alone offering up the Eucharist as a sacrifice for sin.

Which the Holy Spirit never describes them as even doing (while it is congruous to assume that they presided over the Lord's Supper, the issue is of this being the "true body and blood of Christ and a sacrifice for sins, and of Catholic priests alone being qualified to effect and offer this sacrifice).

The English word "priest" itself is not the problem, though it is a etymological corruption of the Greek presbuteros, being referred to in Old English (around 700 to 1000 AD) as "preostas" or "preost," and finally resulting in the modern English "priest," but the problem is that Catholicism translates both hiereus and presbuteros as "priest," thereby losing the distinction the Holy Spirit provided by never using the distinctive term of hiereus for NT presbuteros, or describing them as a separate sacerdotal (Eucharistic) class of believers.

Rather than dispensing bread as part of their ordained function, offering the Lord's supper as a sacrifice for sins, instead the primary active function of pastors is preaching, (1 Timothy 4:2) by which they “feed the flock” (Acts 20:28; 1Pt. 5:2) ) for the word is called spiritual "milk," (1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22) and "meat," (Heb. 5:12-14) what is said to "nourish" the souls of believers, and believing it is how the lost obtain life in themselves. (1 Timothy 4:6; Acts 15:7-9; cf. Psalms 19:7) In contrast, nowhere in the record of the NT church is the Lord's supper described as spiritual food, and the means of obtaining spiritual life in oneself.

All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). But otherwise nowhere are NT pastors called hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distinctive class of "hiereus" was a later development.

In addition, the normative state of NT pastors was that of being married, as almost all the apostles were as well, and with celibacy/continence being a gift not all have. (1 Timothy 3:1-2,4-5; (1 Corinthians 7:7)

Nor in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed is the Lord's supper manifest as the source and summit of the Christian life," " (CCC 1324) "the cause of that communion in the divine life," (CCC 1325) and "the work of our redemption is carried out;" (CCC 1364) "the same sacrifice with that of the cross...a sacrifice of propitiation, by which God is appeased and rendered propitious.” (The Catechism of the Council of Trent)

Instead, apart from mere statements in Acts such as that believers "breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart," (Acts 2:46) and Jude's mention of the "feast of charity," the Lord's supper is only described in one epistle to the churches, and in which it is not the Catholic Eucharist that is described .

"This is MY body" either must either refer to actual bloody human flesh, which manifest physicality John emphasizes in contrast to a christ whose appearance did not physically correspond to the Christ of Scripture, whose body would scientifically test as corporeal flesh. Or it must be understood as metaphorical, which understanding alone easily conflates with the rest of Scripture

It certainly is not taught as referring to what looked, felt, smelled, behaved and would taste and scientifically test merely as inanimate objects (bread and wine), down to the smallest particle, but which bread and wine had ceased to exist at the "words of consecration, becoming instead “the true and proper and lifegiving flesh and blood,” "the very body which he gave up for us on the cross" of the Catholic christ. Until that is, the non-existent hosts manifests decay, at which point the Catholic christ no longer exists under the appearance of the non-existent bread or wine.

Neither is there even one nowhere are believers shown praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) or taught to, especially to the Mary of Catholicism , despite the Spirit inspiring the recording of about 200 prayers, and this being a most basic practice, with there always being plenty of created beings to pray to, and occasions for to do so since the Fall.

And without the Catholic priestly sacerdotal Eucharist and PTCBIH and an exalted demigoddess Mary then you do not have a Mass.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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The Mass is "Biblical" as far as, if you go to a Mass, you're going to be pelted with explicit verses from Scripture, and all of the sights, smells and sounds are going to harken back to Scripture. It's not "Biblical" as far as, you'll find a step by step outline for how it should go. But then you could argue that about any Christian service- there's not a rulebook for "this needs to be done at this time, and on this day you have to do this extra stuff". What we have in Scripture are a few key pieces that describe what must occur, and the rest is left for us to uncover from the early Church writings.
Being "pelted with explicit verses from Scripture, and all of the sights, smells and sounds are going to harken back to Scripture" does not make a service "Biblical" for Catholicism or for non-Catholic cults. It is whether it is consistent with what see in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), in which Catholic distinctives are not manifest .
 
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TuxAme

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There are things in Mormonic worship that are Biblical, but it is the distinctives which are the issue.

For one, there simply is no Catholic priesthood manifest in the the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), most specifically Acts thru Revelation.

In the NT, besides the apostles and deacons, pastors are called presbuteros=senior and episkopos=overseer, which refers to those in one office, (Titus 1:5-7; cf. Acts 20:17,28) but which does not describe a separate sacerdotal class of believers, which in Greek are called “hiereus” and “archiereus" (high priest) collectively over 280 times, which distinctive word the Spirit of Christ never uses for NT pastors, but which Catholicism translates for her clergy, due to an imposed functional equivalence, supposing NT pastors engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry as their unique primary active function ("most of all to offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice" - Pastoral Reflections on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Cardinal John J. O'Conner) , this clergy alone offering up the Eucharist as a sacrifice for sin.
You don't think that could be to avoid confusion concerning pagan priests, whose priestly office would use the appropriate word? Remember that gentiles were often the main audience of the letters. Consider the content, consider the audience.

Regardless, we have texts from the first Christians (which came before the Bible was compiled) which attest to the sacrificial priesthood. But I suppose any defense of the priesthood couldn't be complete without a reflection on Jesus' ministry.

The moment that came to my mind first is when Jesus washed the feet of the apostles. Was He doing this just to be hospitable? Or, as with anything else He ever did, was there a deeper meaning to it? Why would Jesus say to Peter that he could have no part in Him if his feet weren't washed, if He were just trying to do something nice for him? This event radiates Old Testament imagery, particularly:

"Then you shall bring Aaron and his sons to the door of the tent of meeting, and shall wash them with water, and put upon Aaron the holy garments, and you shall anoint him and consecrate him, that he may serve me as priest" Exodus 40:12-13

and

"And he set the laver between the tent of meeting and the altar, and put water in it for washing, with which Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet" Exodus 40: 30-31

Then, of course, there's the language of the Last Supper, which uses the same language as the Old Testament when describing Moses' sacrifices for the ordination of Aaron and his sons as priests. When Jesus says to do this (which can be translated as "offer this"), the word the gospel uses is poieo, like the Greek version of the Septuagint :

"Every day you shall offer [poieseis] a bull as a sin offering for atonement" (36).

“Now this is what you shall offer [poieseis] upon the altar: two lambs a year old day by day continually" (38)

“One lamb you shall offer [poieseis] in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer in the evening” (39)


“And the other lamb you shall offer [poieseis] in the evening, and shall offer [poieseis] with it a cereal offering and its libation, as in the morning, for a pleasing odor, an offering by fire to the Lord" (41)

Sacrifice was a priestly duty. I suppose you have to believe that the Last Supper was itself a sacrifice to allow this to follow, but that's another discussion for another topic.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Non Catholics all think the mass isn’t biblical until they actually pay attention.

...and then they realize how right they were. Mass is never defined or described in the Bible. A church service could be constructed in a variety of ways, all of which having as much biblical element in it, yet still not be a mass according to the Bible, because there is no mass according to the Bible.
 
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DamianWarS

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The Mass is "Biblical" as far as, if you go to a Mass, you're going to be pelted with explicit verses from Scripture, and all of the sights, smells and sounds are going to harken back to Scripture. It's not "Biblical" as far as, you'll find a step by step outline for how it should go. But then you could argue that about any Christian service- there's not a rulebook for "this needs to be done at this time, and on this day you have to do this extra stuff". What we have in Scripture are a few key pieces that describe what must occur, and the rest is left for us to uncover from the early Church writings.

their is no specific biblical model for the christian service and even the Lord's Supper is very broad strokes. The parts that are biblical are the getting together and all the other stuff in Acts 2:42. This is done deliberately as the Christian service is largely culturally based.

Mass is not counter-biblical nor is the christian service counter-biblical but they are not modelled on biblical instruction or teaching they are modelled on christian tradition. Why this demand that Mass must be biblical? To me it is a traditional expression of worship that uses biblical themes but it in itself is not following any biblical model. It is irresponsible to champion this idea it is biblical without qualifying it as a biblically themed based service on the foundation of biblical elements (like the Lord's Supper or gathering together) Let's call a spade a spade here.
 
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Micah888

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The featured part is the Lords Supper, which is clearly a Biblical event that Christ told his followers to repeat.
There's a huge difference between the Mass and the Lord's Supper, so there is nothing in common between the two. The Mass has :
1. A priest
2. An altar
3. Incense
4. An actual sacrifice (they refuse to identify this with the Lord's Supper)
5. Christ is literally eaten at the Mass
6. The "real presence" of Christ is insisted upon
7. The "true blood" of Christ is insisted upon

So the Mass tries to reproduce the OT sacrifices by the Levitical priesthood without any New Testament authority. The Reformers repudiated the Mass.
 
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TuxAme

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Being "pelted with explicit verses from Scripture, and all of the sights, smells and sounds are going to harken back to Scripture" does not make a service "Biblical" for Catholicism or for non-Catholic cults. It is whether it is consistent with what see in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), in which Catholic distinctives are not manifest .
I'm pretty sure I made that distinction. I noted that no Christian service can be found explicitly outlined in Scripture. This is where the writings of the early Church come in (and if you've read them, you might be more than a little surprised to see how "Catholic" the Church was). Here's a pretty good example of how the early Church behaved:

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person(1), and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss(2). There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water(3); and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands(4).

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen(5). This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to ge’noito [so be it].

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced(6), and to those who are absent they carry away a portion(7).


How much of this does the Catholic Church not do? The order has changed from what St. Justin describes, but we still offer our prayers and make our needs known to God (1). We still salute one other "with a kiss" (2) (how this is done differs across the world- in the US, it's usually a handshake- other places, a kiss is still the norm). We still present the wine mixed with water to the priest ("president")(3). The priest ("president") offers thanks (4). We acknowledge that we believe in and accept what is being done in front of us by responding "amen" (5). We then go up to receive the bread and the wine mixed with water "over which the thanksgiving was pronounced"(6). Outside of the Mass, either the priest, deacon or an extraordinary minister can bring the Eucharist to those who were unable to come- usually the homebound (7). I've left out the bit about baptism since this is reserved for the Easter Mass, but it follows at that time.

The bread and wine mixed with water, though, is more than just bread and wine mixed with water. If you don't believe that the bread and wine is actually the body and blood of Jesus, you aren't keeping with historical Christianity, as more than a few men made known for us, but I include just one since I have to type it out:

It is proper, therefore, that when [Christ] gave the Bread He did not say, "This is the symbol of My Body", but, "This is My Body". In the same way when He gave the Cup He did not say, "This is the symbol of My Blood", but, "This is My Blood"; for He wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but [that we should] receive them as they are, the Body and Blood of our Lord. We ought... not regard the [Eucharistic elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the Body and Blood of Christ, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit. Theodore of Mopsuestia, Catechetical Homilies 5, AD 410
 
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Micah888

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If you don't believe that the bread and wine is actually the body and blood of Jesus, you aren't keeping with historical Christianity...
You quoted Justin Martyr, and he was close enough to the apostles that he properly represented the Lord's Supper, NOT the Roman Catholic Mass (which came much, much later). He did not use the word "priest" either (which has been inserted in your quote).

Anyhow for any church to claim that the bread and wine are the ACTUAL BODY AND BLOOD of Christ is to contradict Scripture. And here's why:

HEBREWS 10

Roman Catholic priest imitating the Levitical priest
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Christ our great High Priest offering one sacrifice for sins forever
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God...10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

In view of this the Lord's Supper can only be a Memorial Feast, not an actual sacrifice on an *altar*. The ultimate altar was the Cross.
 
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DamianWarS

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You quoted Justin Martyr, and he was close enough to the apostles that he properly represented the Lord's Supper, NOT the Roman Catholic Mass (which came much, much later). He did not use the word "priest" either (which has been inserted in your quote).

Anyhow for any church to claim that the bread and wine are the ACTUAL BODY AND BLOOD of Christ is to contradict Scripture. And here's why:

HEBREWS 10

Roman Catholic priest imitating the Levitical priest
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Christ our great High Priest offering one sacrifice for sins forever
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God...10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

In view of this the Lord's Supper can only be a Memorial Feast, not an actual sacrifice on a *altar*. The ultimate altar was the Cross.
let's keep the debate of digressed topics to a minimal. I'm not arguing the doctrines of transubstantiation but rather the forms and ceremony of mass and if it's biblical.
 
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Micah888

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let's keep the debat of digressed topics to a minimal. I'm not arguing the doctrines of tansubstantiation but rather the forms and ceremony of mass and if it's biblical.
There was no digression, since I showed why it is unbiblical from Scripture, and transubstatiation is a part of the whole teaching on the Mass.
 
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amariselle

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There was no digression, since I showed why it is unbiblical from Scripture, and transubstatiation is a part of the whole teaching on the Mass.

Correct. There is no Mass without the Eucharistic sacrifice. The “real prescience” through transubstantiation is central to the Mass and is what distinguishes it from all services in all Protestant and Evangelical churches.

And this is a main reason the Catholic church teaches that all Protestant and Evangelical churches lack the fullness of truth, as they see the Lord’s Supper as an act of remembrance, (as Scripture plainly teaches) whereas in the Catholic church it is an actual sacrifice during every single Mass. (Even though, as you pointed out, Scripture is clear, Jesus offered ONE sacrifice, forever.)
 
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amariselle

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That's going to quickly digress. Keep it macro not micro.

It’s not “digressing” to talk about the very centre of what the Mass is. In fact, this needs to be discussed in order to answer the question of “Is the Mass Biblical?”
 
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IV. The Liturgical Celebration of the Eucharist

The Mass of all ages

1350 The presentation of the offerings (the Offertory). Then, sometimes in procession, the bread and wine are brought to the altar; they will be offered by the priest in the name of Christ in the Eucharistic sacrifice in which they will become his body and blood. It is the very action of Christ at the Last Supper - "taking the bread and a cup." “The Church alone offers this pure oblation to the Creator, when she offers what comes forth from his creation with thanksgiving.” The presentation of the offerings at the altar takes up the gesture of Melchizedek and commits the Creator's gifts into the hands of Christ who, in his sacrifice, brings to perfection all human attempts to offer sacrifices.

Catholic Catechism

According to Scripture, we have our High Priest, Jesus. We have no need of a priesthood to daily offer up sacrifices for sin. (Never mind the claim that the true body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ are being offered up continuously by Catholic priests.

Hebrews 9 & Hebrews 10
 
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