To Be Kept In Eternity

listed said:

They shall what? I read worship. I don't read anything about "on" the sabbath. You're changing God's Word by adding and subtracting.

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No. The text in Isaiah 66:23 shows that the Sabbath as is the monthly cycle is even throughout eternity. If the Sabbath was not throughout eternity Isaiah through the Spirit would not have used it to measure time as he did. The mere mentioning of it would have been confusing if it was not a factor through eternity.

HIM said:

No. The text in Isaiah 66:23 shows that the Sabbath as is the monthly cycle is even throughout eternity. If the Sabbath was not throughout eternity Isaiah through the Spirit would not have used it to measure time as he did. The mere mentioning of it would have been confusing if it was not a factor through eternity.

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No that is the way they talked about time. The sabbath has nothing to do with eternity.

HIM said:

No. The text in Isaiah 66:23 shows that the Sabbath as is the monthly cycle is even throughout eternity. If the Sabbath was not throughout eternity Isaiah through the Spirit would not have used it to measure time as he did. The mere mentioning of it would have been confusing if it was not a factor through eternity.

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You still need to address how children are dying in eternity, and sinners are living to 100, etc.

listed said:

No that is the way they talked about time. The sabbath has nothing to do with eternity.

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Yet it is mention as being recognized throughout eternity in Isaiah 66:23.

tall73 said:

You still need to address how children are dying in eternity, and sinners are living to 100, etc.

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So you see what was posted. Good.
I responded to what I responded to. I was not aware of of those other text being discussed here. I am aware of those other text but I am heading out right now. GOD willing HE will shed some light on them for us.

Until later my friend!

tall73 said:

You still need to address how children are dying in eternity, and sinners are living to 100, etc.

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Hi tall, are you referring to Isaiah 65:17-20?

My understanding of these scriptures is that they are referring to conditonal promises to God's people (Church) if they chose to follow God after the restoration and rebuilding of Jurusalem after captivity, with God comparing his blessings to the heavenly and restoration of length of days to prediluvian times.

You know there is no sin in heaven right? So the application here to Heaven cannot be correct.

Note also this promise was only for God's people not the world.

I am not normally a commentary person but these all tend to agree.

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Barnes' Notes on the Bible
There shall be no more thence - The Septuagint, the Syriac, and the Vulgate, read this, 'There shall not be there.' The change requires the omission of a single letter in the present Hebrew text, and the sense seems to demand it. The design of the prophet here is, to describe the times of happiness and prosperity which would succeed the calamities under which the nation had been suffering. This he does by a great variety of images, all denoting substantially the same thing.

In Isaiah 65:17, the change is represented to be as great as if a new heaven and a new earth should be created; in this verse the image is, that the inhabitants would reach a great age, and that the comparatively happy times of the patriarchs would be restored; in Isaiah 65:21, the image is taken from the perfect security in their plans of labor, and the fact that they would enjoy the fruit of their toil; in Isaiah 65:25, the image employed is that taken from the change in the nature of the animal creation. All these are poetic images designed as illustrations of the general truth, and, like other poetic images, they are not to be taken literally.

An infant of days - A child; a sucking child. So the Hebrew word, עול ‛ûl, denotes. The Septuagint renders it, 'Nor shall there be there anymore an untimely birth (ἄωρος aōros) and an old man who has not filled up his time.' The idea is not that there should be no infant in those future times - which would be an idea so absurd that a prophet would not use it even in poetic fiction - but that there will not be an infant who shall not fill up his days, or who will be short-lived. All shall live long, and all shall be blessed with health, and continual vigor and youth.

Nor an old man that hath not filled his days - They shall enjoy the blessings of great longevity, and that not a longevity that shall be broken and feeble, but which shall be vigorous and happy.

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Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(20) There shall be no more thence . . .—The prophet sees in the restored city not so much an eternal and a deathless life as the return of the traditional longevity of the prediluvian and patriarchal age (Genesis 5, 11), Life will not be prematurely cut off, as it had been, by pestilence and war. (Comp. Zechariah 8:4.) He who dies at the age of a hundred will be thought of as dying young; even the sinner, dying before his time as the penalty of his guilt, shall live out the measure of a century. The noticeable fact is that sin is thought of as not altogether extinct—as still appearing, though under altered conditions, even in the restored Jerusalem.

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Benson Commentary
Isaiah 65:20. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, &c. — There shall he no untimely or premature deaths, either of infants and children, who do not grow up to man’s estate, or of old men, who do not live out the full term of life. For the child shall die, &c. — This should rather be translated, For he that dies a hundred years old shall die a child: and the sinner that dies a hundred years old shall be (that is, shall be deemed) accursed, or cut off by the justice of God for his crime. Thus “the prophet describes this renovation of the world as a paradisiacal state, and such as the patriarchs enjoyed before the flood, when men commonly lived nearly a thousand years. So he that died at a hundred years of age would have been looked upon as dying in the age of childhood, and be judged to have been cut off in the beginning of his years, as a punishment for some great sins he had committed.”

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Geneva Study Bible
There shall be no more from there an infant of days, nor an old man that hath {z} not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being {a} an hundred years old shall be accursed. (z) Meaning, in this wonderful restoration of the Church there would be no weakness of youth, nor infirmities of age, but all would be fresh and flourishing: and this is accomplished in the heavenly Jerusalem, when all sins will cease, and the tears will be wiped away. (a) By which he shows that the infidels and unrepentant sinners have no part of this benediction.

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Just some thoughts on the passage. As we know there is no sin in Heaven and only those who through faith are obedient to God in the true heavenly enter in through the gates into the city are able to eat of the tree of life. (Revelations 22:14)

Hope this is helpful

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LoveGodsWord said:

Hi tall, are you referring to Isaiah 65:17-20?

My understanding of these scriptures is that they are referring to conditonal promises to God's people (Church) if they chose to follow God after the restoration and rebuilding of Jurusalem after captivity, with God comparing his blessings to the heavenly and restoration of length of days to prediluvian times.

You know there is no sin in heaven right? So the application here to Heaven cannot be corrent.

Note also this promise was only for God's people not the world.

.

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Yes, I spelled out at length it is referring to covenant blessings after the captivity beginning in post 46 and 55-59, then referenced in post 89. I also noted the reason he compares it to a new heaven and earth is that earlier in the book he discusses the judgment on the nations at that time as shaking the heavens, putting the earth out of place, destruction of the earth, etc.

The promises are later taken up by John and shown to be fulfilled in a much better way, including no death, in heaven.

But this time of blessing that forms the context of 65 also is the backdrop of 66, and the statement regarding from one sabbath and new moon to the next.

People wish to use the evidence of sabbath observance as though it were talking about heaven, but then look at everything else in those sections as not applying to heaven. That doesn't work. It is all related, and all talking about the promises of covenant blessing after the restoration.


Edited to add information where I posted on the subject:
posts 46 and 55-59, then referenced in post 89.

tall73 said:

Yes, I spelled out at length it is referring to covenant blessings after the captivity beginning in post 89. But that is also the context of 66, and the statement regarding from one sabbath and new moon to the next.

The promises are later taken up by John and shown to be fulfilled in a much better way, including no death, in heaven.

But people wish to use the evidence of sabbath observance as though it were talking about heaven, but then look at everything else in those sections as not applying to heaven. That doesn't work. It is all related, and all talking about the promises of covenant blessing after the restoration.

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Hi tall thanks for your reply,

I see, I have not been following everything in this thread so please forgive me if I have missed something. I would like to add however that Isaiah 66 is in reference to the 2nd coming and the literal new Heavens and New Earth. v 15-19.

So in my understanding Isaiah 65 is talking about the blessings in the restoration of God's people on condtional promises of following him while Chapter 66 then changes focus to the real heavenly and the 2nd coming and judgements against God's enemies and the making of the literal new heavens and new earth v22-24.

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Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For behold, the Lord will come with fire - The Septuagint reads this 'As fire' (ὡς πύρ hōs pur). Fire is a common emblem to denote the coming of the Lord to judge and punish his enemies Psalm 50:3 :
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence;

A fire shall devour before him, And it shall be very tempestuous round about him. So Habakkuk 2:5 : Before him went the pestilence, And burning coals went forth at his feet. So Psalm 97:3 : A fire goeth before him, And burneth up his enemies round about. So it is said 2 Thessalonians 1:8, that the Lord Jesus will be revealed 'in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God' (compare Hebrews 10:27; 2 Peter 3:7). So Yahweh is said to breathe out fire when he comes to destroy his foes: There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, And fire out of his mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it.

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Pulpit Commentary
Verses 15-18. - THE VENGEANCE WHICH GOD WILL TAKE ON HIS ENEMIES. A signal outpouring of God's vengeance upon his enemies precedes the settlement of the Church in its final glorious condition, both in Isaiah and in the Revelation of St. John (see ch. 34, 35, and Revelation 19-21.). The wicked have to be removed before the righteous can be established in peace. Here the agencies employed against the wicked are "fire" and "sword" - fire pointing (as Delitzsch remarks) to destructive occurrences of nature, and the sword to destructive occurrences of history. God himself is represented as guiding and directing both agencies, to the punishment of the ungodly and the relief of those who trust in him. Verse 15. - Behold, the Lord will come with fire. "Fire" is a usual accompaniment of a "theophany." God descended on Sinai "in fire" (Exodus 19:18), and led the Israelites through the wilderness by the pillar of the cloud and of fire (Exodus 13:21, 22), and filled the tabernacle with a glory as of fire (Exodus 40:34), and "answered David from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering" (1 Chronicles 21:26), and in the same way answered Solomon (2 Chronicles 7:1) and Elijah (1 Kings 18:38). Isaiah almost always describes a theophany as a "coming with fire" (see Isaiah 10:16-18; Isaiah 27:4; Isaiah 29:6; Isaiah 30:27, 30; Isaiah 33:12, 14, etc.). The agency of fire in the judgment that will overtake the wicked simultaneously with Christ's second coming, appears in 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 2 Peter 3:7-10. With his chariots (comp. Psalm 68:17; Habakkuk 3:8). "Chariots," in the plural, may be regarded as symbolizing the "hosts" of natural and supernatural forces that God has at his command (Cheyne). Like a whirlwind. The whirring of the wheels of chariots, their noise, the swiftness of their pace, and the destruction that they cause, make this simile most appropriate. To render his anger; or, to expend his anger - to vent it.

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Geneva Study Bible
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to {q} render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. (q) This vengeance God began to execute at the destruction of Babylon and has always continued it against the enemies of his Church, and will do till the last day, which will be the accomplishment of it.

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Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
66:15-24 A prophetic declaration is given of the Lord's vengeance on all enemies of his church, especially that of all antichristian opposers of the gospel in the latter days. Ver.

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This is only provided as a help and seems to support a valid answer to your questions

Hope it is helpful

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi tall thanks for your reply,

I see, I have not been following everything in this thread so please forgive me if I have missed something. I would like to add however that Isaiah 66 is in reference to the 2nd coming and the literal new Heavens and New Earth. v 15-19.

So in my undstanding Isaiah 65 is talking about the blessings in the restoration of God's people on condtional promises of following him while Chapter 66 then changes focus to the real heavenly and the 2nd coming and new heavens and new earth.

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Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For behold, the Lord will come with fire - The Septuagint reads this 'As fire' (ὡς πύρ hōs pur). Fire is a common emblem to denote the coming of the Lord to judge and punish his enemies Psalm 50:3 :
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence;

A fire shall devour before him, And it shall be very tempestuous round about him. So Habakkuk 2:5 : Before him went the pestilence, And burning coals went forth at his feet. So Psalm 97:3 : A fire goeth before him, And burneth up his enemies round about. So it is said 2 Thessalonians 1:8, that the Lord Jesus will be revealed 'in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God' (compare Hebrews 10:27; 2 Peter 3:7). So Yahweh is said to breathe out fire when he comes to destroy his foes: There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, And fire out of his mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it.

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Pulpit Commentary
Verses 15-18. - THE VENGEANCE WHICH GOD WILL TAKE ON HIS ENEMIES. A signal outpouring of God's vengeance upon his enemies precedes the settlement of the Church in its final glorious condition, both in Isaiah and in the Revelation of St. John (see ch. 34, 35, and Revelation 19-21.). The wicked have to be removed before the righteous can be established in peace. Here the agencies employed against the wicked are "fire" and "sword" - fire pointing (as Delitzsch remarks) to destructive occurrences of nature, and the sword to destructive occurrences of history. God himself is represented as guiding and directing both agencies, to the punishment of the ungodly and the relief of those who trust in him. Verse 15. - Behold, the Lord will come with fire. "Fire" is a usual accompaniment of a "theophany." God descended on Sinai "in fire" (Exodus 19:18), and led the Israelites through the wilderness by the pillar of the cloud and of fire (Exodus 13:21, 22), and filled the tabernacle with a glory as of fire (Exodus 40:34), and "answered David from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering" (1 Chronicles 21:26), and in the same way answered Solomon (2 Chronicles 7:1) and Elijah (1 Kings 18:38). Isaiah almost always describes a theophany as a "coming with fire" (see Isaiah 10:16-18; Isaiah 27:4; Isaiah 29:6; Isaiah 30:27, 30; Isaiah 33:12, 14, etc.). The agency of fire in the judgment that will overtake the wicked simultaneously with Christ's second coming, appears in 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 2 Peter 3:7-10. With his chariots (comp. Psalm 68:17; Habakkuk 3:8). "Chariots," in the plural, may be regarded as symbolizing the "hosts" of natural and supernatural forces that God has at his command (Cheyne). Like a whirlwind. The whirring of the wheels of chariots, their noise, the swiftness of their pace, and the destruction that they cause, make this simile most appropriate. To render his anger; or, to expend his anger - to vent it.

.................

Geneva Study Bible
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to {q} render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. (q) This vengeance God began to execute at the destruction of Babylon and has always continued it against the enemies of his Church, and will do till the last day, which will be the accomplishment of it.

.................

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
66:15-24 A prophetic declaration is given of the Lord's vengeance on all enemies of his church, especially that of all antichristian opposers of the gospel in the latter days. Ver.

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This is only provided as a help and seems to support a valid answer to your questions

Hope it is helpful

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I walked through the context of both chapters in my earlier posts. However, note that 66 is definitely still talking about the restoration.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.


It speaks of the scattered Israelites returning from their captivity to Jerusalem. Priests and Levites are established to minister at the temple, etc.

tall73 said:

I walked through the context of both chapters in my earlier posts. However, note that 66 is definitely still talking about the restoration.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.


It speaks of the scattered Israelites returning from their captivity to Jerusalem. Priests and Levites are established to minister at the temple, etc.

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Yes, sorry I do not see these scriptures this way as outlined in the previous posts. Do you think the scriptures can have dual meanings and that ALL scriptures are written for our admonition in the last days?

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes, sorry I do not see these scriptures this ways as outlined in the previous posts. Do you think the scriptures can have dual meanings and that ALL scriptures are written for our admonition?

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What double meaning do you see in the exiles returning to Jerusalem and some serving as Levites? It is all in line with the other chapters up to this point.


20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

LoveGodsWord said:

Do you think the scriptures can have dual meanings and that ALL scriptures are written for our admonition in the last days?

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Those are two separate questions.
I Peter 1 indicates that the prophets wrote of the grace to come.

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



As to dual meaning, again, I think those sections in Isaiah were speaking of the restoration after captivity. However, John did take from the promises there and elsewhere and applied them in a different way, showing the greater fulfillment in heaven.

I would not call that a double meaning in this case.

There may be scriptures that have a double meaning. But you would have to show what the double meaning would be in this case of returning exiles and Levites, etc.

tall73 said:

What double meaning do you see in the exiles returning to Jerusalem and some serving as Levites? It is all in line with the other chapters up to this point.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

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Jerusalem as being the heavenly;

REVELATION 3:12 He that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

REVELATION 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

REVELATION 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

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God's People as a Royal Priesthood

1 PETER 2:5
You also, as living stones, are built up into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 PETER 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

REVELATION 1:6 And has made us a kingdom and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

REVELATION 5:10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

REVELATION 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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2nd Coming

v15, For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

MATTHEW 7:19 Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

MATTHEW 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

MATTHEW 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MATTHEW 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

JOHN 15:6 If a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 CORINTHIANS 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall test every man's work of what sort it is.

1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 THESSOLONIANS 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

HEBREWS 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

HEBREWS 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

REVELATION 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

REVELATION20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

REVELATION 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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Just a few, I believe this to be the focus of Isaiah 66. As you know the Sabbath is an everlasting (forever) covenant so it seems to reason it will also be kept in the New Earth v22-23.

LoveGodsWord said:

Jerusalem as being the heavenly;

REVELATION 3:12 He that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

REVELATION 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

REVELATION 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

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There is definitely a heavenly Jerusalem. However, that does not show the exiles coming from the nations to return to it on horses, in chariots, etc.

God's People as a Royal Priesthood

1 PETER 2:5
You also, as living stones, are built up into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 PETER 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

REVELATION 1:6 And has made us a kingdom and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

REVELATION 5:10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

REVELATION 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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A. Priests, not Levites.
B. Jesus is not of the Levitical priesthood.
C. The people appointed come back from the exile.

2nd Coming
v15, For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

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It shows the Lord fighting His enemies with chariot, sword, fire, etc. But this language of fiery judgment is used throughout the book in regards to the enemies of God at that time.

In Isaiah 10 God spoke of judgment on His enemies with fire in regards to Assyria. And also pictured are the captives returning to Jerusalem:

12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:

14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.

17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.

19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

23 For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

24 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

26 And the Lord of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt.

And again in chapter 30:

27 Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.

29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the Lord, to the mighty One of Israel.

30 And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

31 For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.

33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

In chapter 64 he points out that Zion lays waste, and calls on the Lord to come judge

1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!


Also, fiery chariots are associated with God and His army apart from Isaiah.

2 Kings 6
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

And Habakkuk anticipates something similar when he calls for the judgment on Babylon who is going to invade them. He asks the Lord to act as He did before, and describes God riding a chariot in battle.

We also see God described similarly in Ezekiel 1:
4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

It then describes His chariot, with the living creatures, each with a wheel, and above that the firmament with His throne.


The context of all of it is the judgment on God's enemies at that time and the restoration.

As you know the Sabbath is an everlasting (forever) covenant

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Agreed! Made with Israel forever.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

However, when you use the text in Isaiah to say what it is not saying you lose credibility. That text is talking about the restoration after the captivity. The entire context is about it, including Levites, including the captives being brought back.

So if you push this text to talk about what it does not mean as a proof text it makes your case weaker, not stronger.

tall73 said:

There is definitely a heavenly Jerusalem. However, that does not show the exiles coming from the nations to return to it on horses, in chariots, etc.

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Hi tall, I think your missing the point here so let me clarify something before continuing as it will answer most of your post. I am not arguing against a literal interpretation of the scriptures in the Book of Isaiah and agree with the scriptures you have posted for a literal interpretation of the scriptures. So let's put that one to rest right away as we agree.

What I am suggesting here is that the OLD agrees with the NEW and supports dual application as we were showing earlier agreed on in the commentaries and also shown in the earlier posts provided above.

Are not all christians and followers of God still in exile and wondering in the wilderness of the world today, waiting for the 2nd coming of Jesus to lead us into the promised land (Heavenly)?

Are you looking for a literal application of the scripture and missing the spiritual?

JOHN 3:12, If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

HEBREWS 11:8-16

[8], By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should later receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went.

[9], By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

[10], For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[11], Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

[12], Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the seashore innumerable.

[13], These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

[14], For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

[15], And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

[16], But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.

..................

tall73 said:

A. Priests, not Levites.
B. Jesus is not of the Levitical priesthood.
C. The people appointed come back from the exile.

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A. Priests where levites in the OLD COVENANT not the NEW
B. Indeed we are in the NEW COVENANT (your trying to draw comparison to the OLD AND NEW they are different. In Isaiah's time they new had not been introduced.
C. As those who are called in Christ. We were exiled by our sins and return to God through repentance, confession of sin, and faith to follow Jesus awaiting his return and the new heavenly Jerusalem.

tall73 said:

It shows the Lord fighting His enemies with chariot, sword, fire, etc. But this language of fiery judgment is used throughout the book in regards to the enemies of God at that time.

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v15, The same language of firery judgement is used at the 2nd coming as God's judgement (rebuke) will be with flames of fire (scriptures provided already above posts). There is a lot of sybolism used in all of God's WORD to mean many things in both the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures that can be applied in past, present and future application.

By taking a literal approach to the scriptures in everything you can lose the dual spiritual applications. For example; Sword of the Spirit = the word of God (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12; Judgemen; Revelation 13:14; 19:15; 21)

Sorry I cannot see how these scriptures are only a literal application as there are too many parallels to the 2nd coming and the Judgements of God and the application of the everlasting covenant of the 4th Commandment.

tall73 said:

Agreed! Made with Israel forever.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Click to expand...

This is where we can take the same approach. Some try and ephasize that the perpetual covenant here is only applied to literal Israel but I am sure you are not saying this here. As the application from God's WORD is that Israel are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. This is demonstrated through out God's WORD.

WHO ARE GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

No explanation needed, believe God's Word, and again...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God's Israel continued...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

GENTILES are now grafted in please read ROMANS 11:16-27

……………………


GODS SABBATH A SIGN AND EVERLASTING COVENANT TO GOD’S ISRAEL

God's Sabbth (4th Commandment) is indeed a SIGN to God's people. Where does it say in the scriptures that this sign is not applicable now in the NEW COVENANT?

let's read the scriptures....

EXODUS 31:13-17 [13], Speak also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that does sanctify you. [14], You shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [15], Six days may work be done; but on the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever does any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [16], Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a EVERLASTING covenant. [17], It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

New Living Translation
The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time.

English Standard Version
Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

New American Standard Bible
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

King James Bible
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Christian Standard Bible
The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a permanent covenant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let the children of Israel keep the sabbath, and celebrate it in their generations. It is an everlasting covenant

Darby Bible Translation
And the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations -- [it is] an everlasting covenant.

Now all of this links into the next key scripture as follows

............................

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your descendants and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the LORD.

............................

So once again not disagreeing with you here. Just looking at it from both the NEW and OLD testament scripture perspective and not only a literal application of the scriptures in the OLD Testament which is also just as true.

Thanks for sharing. I love God's WORD and love sharing it.

Ok have to away for a bit back latter nice to chat with you tall

HIM said:

Yet it is mention as being recognized throughout eternity in Isaiah 66:23.

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I'd like to know how. Your verse us the way they kept time. It's not about the sabbath.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi tall, I think your missing the point here so let me clarify something before continuing as it will answer most of your post. I am not arguing against a literal interpretation of the scriptures in the Book of Isaiah and agree with the scriptures you have posted for a literal interpretation of the scriptures. So let's put that one to rest right away as we agree.

What I am suggesting here is that the OLD agrees with the NEW and supports dual application as we were showing earlier agreed on in the commentaries and also shown in the earlier posts provided above.

Are not all christians and followers of God still in exile and wondering in the wilderness of the world today, waiting for the 2nd coming of Jesus to lead us into the promised land (Heavenly)?

Are you looking for a literal application of the scripture and missing the spiritual?

JOHN 3:12, If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

HEBREWS 11:8-16

[8], By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should later receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went.

[9], By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

[10], For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[11], Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

[12], Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the seashore innumerable.

[13], These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

[14], For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

[15], And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

[16], But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.

..................



A. Priests where levites in the OLD COVENANT not the NEW
B. Indeed we are in the NEW COVENANT (your trying to draw comparison to the OLD AND NEW they are different. In Isaiah's time they new had not been introduced.
C. As those who are called in Christ. We were exiled by our sins and return to God through repentance, confession of sin, and faith to follow Jesus awaiting his return and the new heavenly Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

As tall said it is talking about priests and not levitical priest of the OT.

I'm glad to see your comment in B.

Christians aren't exiled anywhere in Scripture.

v15, The same language of firery judgement is used at the 2nd coming as God's judgement (rebuke) will be with flames of fire (scriptures provided already above posts). There is a lot of sybolism used in all of God's WORD to mean many things in both the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures that can be applied in past, present and future application.

By taking a literal approach to the scriptures in everything you can lose the dual spiritual applications. For example; Sword of the Spirit = the word of God (Ephesians 6:17; Hebrews 4:12; Judgemen; Revelation 13:14; 19:15; 21)

Sorry I cannot see how these scriptures are only a literal application as there are too many parallels to the 2nd coming and the Judgements of God and the application of the everlasting covenant of the 4th Commandment.



This is where we can take the same approach. Some try and ephasize that the perpetual covenant here is only applied to literal Israel but I am sure you are not saying this here. As the application from God's WORD is that Israel are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. This is demonstrated through out God's WORD.

WHO ARE GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

No explanation needed, believe God's Word, and again...

Click to expand...

True enough. The verse says nothing about Israel or becoming Israel (Jew). It plainly says 1 in Jesus.

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Click to expand...

Neither of these passages say anything about becoming Israel or a Jew. The same applies to the rest of your passages.