LDS Mormons, who is to blame for the crucifixion and why?

IMHO?

Just because it was required to happen doesn't mean that the people in question had to be the ones to do it. They let it happen how, when, and where it did through their own choices.

Phoebe Ann said:

We aren't talking about supposed possibilities. We are talking about God's plan, not a plan B. He doesn't have to go to plan B or C.

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Yes, the plan of salvation. Jesus Christ overcame the world and made it possible for us th return to God. When are you going to come back to the fold?

He is the way said:

When are you going to come back to the fold?

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This is highly inappropriate, and could reasonably be considered against the forum's site-wide rules, as Phoebe Ann is recognized as a Christian under the site's definition, and hence implying that she must return to anything in order to be following the right path may be conceived of as either proselytizing for a non-Christian religion (Mormonism), or questioning or denying a Christian member's Christianity, both of which are a flagrant violation of the site's rules. The rules, which are accessible here, state:

• Promoting* or proselytizing religious beliefs or religions (including Satanism or Occultism) other than Christianity is not allowed. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith which is found in the Sitewide Rules.
• Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

Stop it immediately or you will be reported.

dzheremi said:

This is highly inappropriate, and could reasonably be considered against the forum's site-wide rules, as Phoebe Ann is recognized as a Christian under the site's definition, and hence implying that she must return to anything in order to be following the right path may be conceived of as either proselytizing for a non-Christian religion (Mormonism), or questioning or denying a Christian member's Christianity, both of which are a flagrant violation of the site's rules. The rules, which are accessible here, state:

• Promoting* or proselytizing religious beliefs or religions (including Satanism or Occultism) other than Christianity is not allowed. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith which is found in the Sitewide Rules.
• Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

Stop it immediately or you will be reported.

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Okay I will. It was just a question and was not meant to proselytize.

Ironhold said:

IMHO?

Just because it was required to happen doesn't mean that the people in question had to be the ones to do it. They let it happen how, when, and where it did through their own choices.

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Joseph was taken to tasks for some of his mistakes and was told "The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught......Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall" D&C 3

In D&C 114 he's told "For verily thus saith the Lord, that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric."

The idea is that we always have agency, Judas had his agency. If he had not fallen to temptation then God would have found another way, the sacrifice on the cross was preordained and it would come to pass.

Hmm. I find this thread strange.

In one of the Coptic Orthodox fraction prayers (the prayers prayed by the priest while preparing the Eucharistic bread to be consumed by the faithful) addressed to the Son of God, it is prayed: "O the only begotten Son, God the Word, who loved us and because of his love He wanted to save us from eternal damnation, but since death was in the way of our salvation, he yearned to go through it because of his love for us. And so, He was raised on the cross to carry the punishment of our sins."

Looked at it from this vantage point, the question of who is 'responsible' is strange. He went through all He went through because of His love for us. Not to mention that Christ says that He gives up His life of Himself; no one may take it from Him. (John 10:17-18)

Is this an open and shut case, or is there something about Mormonism in particular that makes the OP an appropriate question?

dzheremi said:

Hmm. I find this thread strange.

In one of the Coptic Orthodox fraction prayers (the prayers prayed by the priest while preparing the Eucharistic bread to be consumed by the faithful) addressed to the Son of God, it is prayed: "O the only begotten Son, God the Word, who loved us and because of his love He wanted to save us from eternal damnation, but since death was in the way of our salvation, he yearned to go through it because of his love for us. And so, He was raised on the cross to carry the punishment of our sins."

Looked at it from this vantage point, the question of who is 'responsible' is strange. He went through all He went through because of His love for us. Not to mention that Christ says that He gives up His life of Himself; no one may take it from Him. (John 10:17-18)

Is this an open and shut case, or is there something about Mormonism in particular that makes the OP an appropriate question?

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Further, the Apostle St. Paul says that it was at just the right time that God sent His Son (Galatians 4:4).

In one sense, blaming someone for our Lord's death is meaningless, because this was the will of God that He should rescue us by plunging Himself into death for our sakes, in order to defeat it and deliver us to God.

The Apostle, however, also describes how the powers and principalities are made a public spectacle in Colossians ch. 2. The confluence of these things happening turn the violent powers of the world into a spectacle, showing them robbed of their power. For what violent and evil men sought to do, in reality was the work of God, thereby rendering the power of the devil impotent.

-CryptoLutheran

Phoebe Ann said:

I just don't understand the Mormon explanation that God has a plan that He absolutely will carry out, but He leaves the details to man's will.

We pray "Thy will be done." I don't remember anyone praying that when I was a Mormon.

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It is not as if we don't know the Lord's prayer or use it and or parts of it. However we don't believe in the use of vain repetitions when we pray. I often acknowledge God's hand in all things when I pray. How about you?

Phoebe Ann said:

I know the Mormon idea of not using vain repetitions, but repeating words doesn't make them vain. How many times do we say, "Thank you" or "I love you." Do Mormons say the same two prayers in every Sacrament Meeting?

The point I was making wasn't about repetitions. It was about praying for God's will to be done instead of ours. It was God's will for the crucifixion to occur. Do Mormon's recognize that?

God willed that certain people would bring it about. Does that mean that it's okay to sin? Or does it mean that God was helpless to stop them?

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The prayer on the sacrament and the baptismal prayers are two of the few prayers that should be word for word. In the Lord's prayed "thy will be done" is prefaced by "thy kingdom come". God gave each of us agency. These scriptures declare it:
Ex. 32:33
Gen. 4:7
Duet. 11:27 - 24:16 - 30:19
Josh. 24:15
Gal. 6:7
God also knows the future. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Jesus told Peter that he would deny him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed:
(New Testament | Matthew 26:75)

75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Does that mean that God willed Peter to deny Jesus? What do you think?

Phoebe Ann said:

According to Mormonism, foreordination depends on man's free will, not God's plan?

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Why would this be directed at Mormons as though all other Christians believe that God is responsible for all the sin and evil in this world?

God does not pre-program evildoers (if that is what you are suggesting). And even though God knew well in advance who would do what, He held Israel strictly accountable for the murder of Christ. This means that foreknowledge does not include pre-programming anyone to do anything wicked.

Yes, God predetermined and foreordained the crucifixion of Christ with the full knowledge of what His enemies would do, and what His betrayer would do. At the same time God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

Phoebe Ann said:

The Mormon church claims to be that kingdom. "Thy will be done," ought to be prayed daily and the follower of Christ should accept His will.

God gave each of us agency. These scriptures declare it:
Ex. 32:33
Gen. 4:7
Duet. 11:27 - 24:16 - 30:19
Josh. 24:15
Gal. 6:7
God also knows the future. He knows us better than we know ourselves.

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If you actually believe that, this "estate" is not a test. God already knows the outcome.



Of course, God willed it and He planned the rest of Peter's life.

Jeremiah 29
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

God is very involved in what occurs on earth.[/QUOTE]
God is very involved in what occurs on earth, so is Satan, and so are we. The Bible mentions our involvement:
(Old Testament | Jonah 3:5 - 10)

5 ¶ So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
(Old Testament | 2 Kings 20:1 - 6)

1 IN those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

Satan's involvement:

(Old Testament | Job 1:6 - 12)

6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

We already know God's involvement.