Eastern VS Western Thinking

redleghunter said:

What we can only draw from the story is the man is quite uncomfortable in an undesirable location called Hades.

To try to apply a specific doctrine like annihilationism to this story is reading into the text what is not there.

Let's hold of on the final fate of the wicked judged as we are discussing the intermediary state.

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Here is another passage of interest (part of which you quoted earlier, I assume you are familiar with the whole passage):

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (Thessalonians 4)

We can see here that Paul is very clearly describing the way of things when we die. There is no mention whatsoever of some sort of intermediary state, rather: the dead in Chrsit will rise first.
If these people are not dead then how can they rise from the dead?

Anguspure said:

Some say that the "grave" is the abode of departed spirits. My question to them is where did they learn this? There is not one passage in the Bible that speaks of "a place" where all departed spirits go, and not one passage that speaks of "departed spirits." Do they out of thin air come up with both a place and departed spirits to put in that place? They manufacture terms and use them as if they were Biblical and expect all others to accept their manufactured terms without question. R W West

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Mr. West should know Jesus gives a detailed description of what happens with the righteous and wicked after death and before the resurrection. We've been discussing Luke 16:19-32 now for several posts.

Unless of course Mr. West is completely dismissing this teaching of Jesus.

Anguspure said:

In Greek Mythology, Hades is the underworld ruled by the god of that name, who is also known as Pluto; in Nurse Mythology, Hel is a cold and shadowy subterranean realm. Growler 1995 Encyclopedia

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Correct. The NT was written in Greek. You would expect the word to show up speaking of spirit.

Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament dispels a lot of the medieval traditions many are concerned with


Edit add: since we are here here is the OT Sheol:

Anguspure said:

"The modern Western understanding of Hell derives from the latest period in ancient Israel's history, and it was more fully developed by early Christianity...There is no fully developed teaching about Hell in the New Testament, though there are frequent mentions of it. Only in the course of later church history was it elaborated into official church doctrine. Today the New Testament statements and their later explanation are taken
literally by some Christians, regarded as allegory or myth by some, and denied altogether by others." Compton's 1995 Encyclopedia

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Surely Comptons should know our Lord mentioned Hades quite a few times.

And firery hell even more.

Compton's assertion there is no developed doctrine on either Hades or Gehenna (hell) is slim.

Revelation 20: NASB

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

redleghunter said:

Mr. West should know Jesus gives a detailed description of what happens with the righteous and wicked after death and before the resurrection. We've been discussing Luke 16:19-32 now for several posts.

Unless of course Mr. West is completely dismissing this teaching of Jesus.

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West holds to the view that the story is a parable and develops the argument:

The complete silence of the scriptures about the dead being anywhere before the resurrection other than the grave is a deathblow to the doctrine of an immortal soul.

THOSE WHO MAKE THIS PARABLE INTO A LITERAL STORY AND ARE TRYING TO PROVE THE ABRAHAM'S BOSOM VIEW, OR TO PROVE HELL, USE IT TO PUT ASIDE HUNDREDS OF
PLAIN PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE.

This is the last in a series of five parables all spoken to the Pharisee and Scribes in this speech.
1. The lost sheep [Luke 15:3-7].
2. The lost coin [Luke 15:8-10] not called a parable.
3. The lost son [Luke 15:11-32] "a certain man" not called a parable.
4. The unjust steward [Luke 16:1-13] "a certain rich man" not called a parable.
5. The rich man and Lazarus [Luke 16:19-31] "a certain rich man" not called a parable.

. Four of the five are not called a parable.
. Three of the five begin with "a certain...man."
. Two of the five have "a certain rich man."
. No one makes the other four be a true story, but they desperately need the rich man and
Lazarus to be a true story to have proof of their doctrine.
Five "a certain" in a row.
. [1] "A certain man" [Luke 14:16].
. [2] "A certain man" [Luke 15:11]. No one questions these two being a parable.
. [3] "A certain rich man" [Luke 16:1]. And no one questions this being a parable.
. [4] "A certain rich man" [Luke 16:19]. Why do many question this being a parable?
. [5] "And a certain beggar named Lazarus" [Luke 16:20].
. Christ used "a certain" 18 times, and all 18 are in parables [Matthew 18:23; 21:28;
31:23; 22:2; Mark 12:1; Luke 7:41; 10:30; 10:31; 10:33; 12:16; 13:6; 14:16; 15:11;
16:1; 16:19: 16:20; 19:12; 20:9].

No one questions that the other 16 times "a certain" is used as being in parables, only the two in this parable to make them fit their with their literal view.

The objection of some is that it is not called a parable. Less than half, only 11 of the 26 parables in Luke are called a parable. The three parables before this one are not called parables but no one questions them being parables. The objection of others is that parables do not use proper names.

"And he took up his parable, and said, 'From ARAM has BALAK brought me, the king of
MOAB from the mountains of the East: come, curse me JACOB, and come, defy ISRAEL'"
[Numbers 23:7]. Not one but FIVE PROPER NAMES are used in one parable. "SATAN" [Mark
4:14] and "THE SON OF MAN" [Matthew 13:37] are used in parables.
If one attempts to explain all the elements as though they are literal, the difficulties of making this be a true story will be seen......

If this is a true story, IT IS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH CHRIST AND PAUL.
Christ said, "for you shall be recompensed in the resurrection of the just" [Luke 14:14];
but if this is a true story, their recompense is in "Abraham's bosom" at death before the
resurrection. What will happen after death? Christ says, "For the hour comes, in which
ALL THAT ARE IN THE TOMBS [not in Abraham's bosom] shall hear his voice, and
come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have
done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" [John 5:28-29]. If hades is not the grave,
no one will be in the tombs when Christ comes. Paul said, "There is laid up for me a
crown of righteousness, which the Lord...shall give me at that day" [2 Timothy 4:8].
The resurrection keeps getting in the way of the immortal soul doctrine for it seems to
be more than just a little difficult to have a resurrection of something that is alive and
not dead.

If this is a true story, it makes the judgment a mockery and an empty show. All are
judged at death. The wicked are being punished and the saved are being rewarded before
the Judgment Day, therefore, both punishment and reward would begin at death
without the judgment, not at the resurrection.
.
If this is a true story, it makes the resurrection useless and not needed. No one is dead. It
makes void the teaching of Christ about the resurrection of the dead at His coming. Not
only would the resurrection be useless but also a lie for if no one is dead, no one can be
resurrected. The dead would be more alive than we are and at the second coming of
Christ, no one will be in the grave to "come forth" [John 5:28-29]. They would have to
"come back" from somewhere, but it would not be a resurrection of the dead. "Abraham's
bosom," if made to be a real place in a true story, and the teaching of going to
Heaven or Hell at death, both makes a resurrection impossible and not needed. A LIVING
SOUL OR PERSON COMING BACK FROM ABRAHAM'S BOSOM OR FROM
HEAVEN FOR THE JUDGMENT WOULD NOT BE A RESURRECTION OF THE
DEAD. Any doctrine which makes the dead not be dead, and those who are asleep are
not asleep, makes a resurrection an impossibility and useless. IF THIS IS A TRUE
STORY AND NOT A PARABLE, IT IS AN UNDENIABLE CONTRADICTION OF
THE PROTESTANT VIEW THAT EVERYONE GOES TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL
AT DEATH.
.
If this is a true story, it makes the wages of sin being death not possible. There is no real
death. To be dead is just to be alive in another form.

It is used to show the nature of punishment after death in Hell. EVEN IF IT WERE A
TRUE STORY, IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING AFTER THE JUDGMENT
OR ABOUT HELL. IT DOES NOT MENTION THE SOUL, HEAVEN OR HELL
BUT IS USED TO PROVE ALL THREE.
.
If this is a true story, it is when the rich man had brothers living on earth, not after the
judgment, therefore could not be used to prove that is a Hell after the judgment by those
who believe the Abraham bosom version for they teach no one will be in Hell unto after
Judgment Day and then no one will have brothers living on the earth.
.
If this is a true story, those who believe souls are immortal and live after the death of
the earthly body believe the rich man and Lazarus to be two immortal souls that do not
have a body. THIS IS THE POINT THEY WANT TO MAKE, THAT A PERSON HAS
A SOUL THAT LIVES AFTER THE DEATH OF THE BODY. Do they think one immortal
soul would want another immortal soul to bring it a drop of water? They tell us
the "soul" of both the saved and the lost are in hades, and tell us at death "the spirit returns to God" [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. They have the "soul" in hades and the "spirit" in
Heaven at the same time.

If this is a true story, those in Abraham's bosom would be able to hear and see those on
the other side of the gulf. The gulf must be narrow enough to be in speaking distance.
Could parents be in joy while they watched their children in agony? Could anyone be
happy and have peace while they could hear the cries of anguish of those on the other
side? Even most who believes this to be a parable, do not believe the good and the bad
dead can talk to each other, or that the dead can now come back and talk to the living as
the rich man wanted Lazarus to do. The view taught today is Abraham's bosom is like a
lake of fire with the lost in the lake and the saved sitting on the shore watching their torment, and according to the way Revelation 6:9-10 is used, those on the shore would
be asking God to torment them more.
. If it is a true story, it is the one place in the Bible where the veil is drawn aside and we
can see what it is like after death. We can even hear the conversation of those on the
other side, and it was given to unbelievers, the Pharisees and Scribes. Luke 15 and 16 is
a discourse to them, not to the Apostles.
. If this is a true story, we have a biblical example of praying to a Saint and to a person as
if he were God, which we are forbidden to do. If after death anyone can pray to Saint
Abraham, why do most why are orthodox teach we cannot pray to Saint Abraham or
any other saint? R W West

He goes on at length...

Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament dispels a lot of the medieval traditions many are concerned with

hades (86), “the region of departed spirits of the lost” (but including the blessed dead in periods preceding the ascension of Christ). It has been thought by some that the word etymologically meant “the unseen” (from a, negative, and eido, “to see”), but this derivation is questionable; a more probable derivation is from hado, signifying “all-receiving.” It corresponds to “Sheol” in the OT. In the KJV of the OT and NT; it has been unhappily rendered “hell,” e.g., Ps. 16:10; or “the grave,” e.g., Gen. 37:35; or “the pit,” Num. 16:30, 33; in the NT the revisers have always used the rendering “hades”; in the OT, they have not been uniform in the translation, e.g. in Isa. 14:15 “hell” (marg., “Sheol”); usually they have “Sheol” in the text and “the grave” in the margin. It never denotes the grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of Gehenna. For the condition, see Luke 16:23-31.

The word is used four times in the Gospels, and always by the Lord, Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; it is used with reference to the soul of Christ, Acts 2:27, 31; Christ declares that He has the keys of it, Rev. 1:18; in Rev. 6:8 it is personified, with the signification of the temporary destiny of the doomed; it is to give up those who are therein, 20:13, and is to be cast into the lake of fire, v. 14.¶ Note: In 1 Cor. 15:55 the most authentic mss. have thanatos, “death,” in the 2nd part of the verse, instead of “hades,” which the KJV wrongly renders “grave” (“hell,” in the marg.).​

Surely Comptons should know our Lord mentioned Hades quite a few times.

And firery hell even more.

Compton's assertion there is no developed doctrine on either Hades or Gehenna (hell) is slim.

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Hades and sheol are clearly the grave, that Jesus mentioned them frequently is no surprise, people being in the grave is a pretty universal experience. We need not read anything more into them than simply that.

The development is a function of translation and interpretation that is not warranted by the text.

Revelation 20: NASB

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

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So there are people that die in the sea that are not in hades, there are other dead people who are not in hades. This only makes sense if these other 2 ways to be dead are equivalent to hades.

So now we, rather absurdly, multipy intermediary places.

Do you suppose dead people in the sea are consciously floating around awaiting ressurection?

That or we might realise that the passage is merely referring to different ways in which to be dead i.e. One could be left in the sea, one could be blown apart and no remains are left to bury, or one might be in the grave (hades/sheol). No need to invoke a concious intermediary state in any of this.

Anguspure said:

For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave. (Acts 2)
Clearly the soulish part of Jesus was dead in grave.

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Actually notice the distinction. The "dead" are in Hades, and the body is in the Grave.

Jesus in Luke 23:42-43 tells the repentant criminal next to Him he would be in Paradise with Him that day. With the body of Jesus in the grave this means His soul/spirit went to Paradise.

Anguspure said:

He goes on at length...

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He does but his entire premise is false. Even if the Lazarus story is a parable, Jesus never used something erroneous or mythological to teach a truth. He used things real to the audience.

Mr. West also engages in several false dichotomies. This one was especially puzzling:

Anguspure said:

If hades is not the grave,
no one will be in the tombs when Christ comes.

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Here is obviously asserting there can be no separation of the inner man or soul from the body thus the graves would be empty if Hades is an actual place. Please tell me you see the absurdity of West's statement here. He continues the same absurd assertions before and after this statement. He is approaching the subject from a pure materialistic position as if the law of Gravity should have applied to Paul when he was taken up to the third heaven.

Anguspure said:

Hades and sheol are clearly the grave, that Jesus mentioned them frequently is no surprise, people being in the grave is a pretty universal experience. We need not read anything more into them than simply that.

The development is a function of translation and interpretation that is not warranted by the text.

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It is true Sheol in some places is properly the grave where the body lays. But not all of the over 60 references as Vines Expository points out.


Finally the use of Hades by Jesus only refers to Hades as a place which the dead are and not the grave. That goes for the remainder of the NT.

Anguspure said:

So there are people that die in the sea that are not in hades, there are other dead people who are not in hades. This only makes sense if these other 2 ways to be dead are

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The passage says dead, death and Hades. The dead and death are the bodies now resurrected joining their souls for judgment.

I can see how West gets his conclusions. He asserts based on a false premise based on a solely materialistic design.

I truly wonder what his views are of the Incarnation and Deity of Jesus Christ.

Anguspure said:

Here is another passage of interest (part of which you quoted earlier, I assume you are familiar with the whole passage):

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (Thessalonians 4)

We can see here that Paul is very clearly describing the way of things when we die. There is no mention whatsoever of some sort of intermediary state, rather: the dead in Chrsit will rise first.
If these people are not dead then how can they rise from the dead?

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Bolded above I already addressed now three times .

An expository examination is in order. How can Jesus bring back a grave? Well this gets to the point Paul makes in 2 Corinthians 4-5 and Philippians 1:



Note, what is very important is Paul’s use of the ‘outer’ and ‘inner’ man above leads into 2 Corinthians 5:1-10:

Tree of Life said:

Today sociologists and psychologists point out profound differences between “eastern” and “western” thinking. In their terms, this means Asian VS European thinking. And since European thought is inextricably bound up with Christianity and Asian thought is bound up with eastern religion, this makes some sense.

In pop-theology it’s becoming more and more common to claim that there is a significant difference between eastern and western thought and that this affects the way we understand the Bible. In pop-theology terms, “eastern” means “near eastern” - specifically Hebrew. And “western” means “Greek” and the “Greco Roman West”. The idea is that the thought world behind the OT is significantly different than the thought world behind the NT. Furthermore, in order to understand the Bible we need to depart from much of “western theology”, which is allegedly Greek (now a pejorative term), and adopt an eastern mindset.

I deny that there is a significant difference between ancient Near Eastern thought and Ancient Greek thought. I deny that the eastern/western distinction is useful in theology. I deny that in order to understand the Bible we need to depart from western theology.

I’d like to see some real examples of such eastern/western differences that make a significant difference in how we understand Scripture. IOW, what can legitimately be gained by identifying a “Greek” mindset, departing from it, and embracing an eastern mindset?

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The Greek Versus the Hebrew View of Man

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The foundations of the Greek view go back to the theology of the Orphic sect, which came to light in Greece in the sixth century B.C., and spread throughout the Greek world and into southern Italy, profoundly influencing Plato and later Greek thought. This theology is embodied in the ancient myth of Zagreus (Dionysus), begotten by Zeus of Demeter. Zagreus fell under the power of the Titans, wicked enemies of Zeus. In his effort to escape them, Zagreus changed himself into a bull; but the Titans captured him, tore him to pieces, and devoured him. However, Zeus blasted the Titans by a flash of lightning, and from their ashes arose the human race. Mankind thus possesses two elements: a divine element from Zagreus and a wicked element from the Titans. This mythology expresses the Orphic theology of the dualism of body and soul. Man must free himself from the Titanic elements and, purified, return to the gods, a fragment of whom is living in him. Expressed in other words, "man's duty is to free himself from the chains of the body in which the soul lies fast bound like the prisoner in his cell."16 This freedom is not easily achieved. Usually the soul at death flutters free in the air, only to enter into a new body. It may pass through a series of deaths and reincarnations. Finally, by the sacred rites of the cult and by a life of ascetic purity, man may escape the wheel of birth and become divine.17

…
We may now summarize our findings as to the difference between the basic Greek and Hebrew dualism. Greek dualism is that of two worlds, the visible and the invisible, the phenomenal and the noumenal, becoming and being, appearance and reality. Man belongs to both worlds by virtue of the fact that he is both body and soul or mind. "God" can be known only by the control of the bodily appetites, that the mind may be free from material pollutions to contemplate the divine realities. Finally, the soul must escape from the wheel of bodily existence to return to the divine world where it really belongs.

The Hebrew view is not a dualism of two worlds, but a religious dualism of God versus man. Man is God's creature; creation is the realm of God's constant activity; and God makes himself known and speaks to men in the ebb and flow of history. Man is not a bipartite creature of the divine and human, of soul and body; in his total being he is God's creature and remains a part of creation. Therefore the redemption of man and the redemption of creation belong together. Salvation consists of fellowship with God in the midst of earthly existence and will finally mean the redemption of the whole man together with his environment. At the heart of the Old Testament view is God — a living personal being — who visits man in earthly existence to establish fellowship with himself and who will finally visit man to establish his perfect rule and redemption in the world.

In sum, the Greek view is that "God" can be known only by the flight of the soul from the world and history; the Hebrew view is that God can be known because he invades history to meet men in historical experience.

The Influence Of Greek Philosophy On The Development Of Christian Theology

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The supporters of the doctrine of inherited original sin appeal to several Bible passages that have come to be viewed from the presuppositions of an essentially Platonic/Neo-Platonic frame of reference. That frame of reference is a prism that determines the definitions and connotations of certain Biblical words and phrases, notably "sin." Because these Biblical passages did not in themselves teach the later doctrine of original sin, they had to be "retrofitted" by eisogesis to conform to a Greek philosophical template.

It is important that we consider and understand these Biblical passages from a Hebrew/moral frame of reference instead of a Greek/ontological frame of reference. That is, we will regard The Scriptures in their natural definition of sin and holiness as voluntary moral choices, not ontological (metaphysical) essences. "Spiritual" does not mean "mystical." It has to do with moral choices and character, and a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

Wordkeeper said:

God makes himself known and speaks to men in the ebb and flow of history.

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Probably the most important line in the quote.

J. W. Jepson who you quote from defended the Trinity in his writings. Many believe Trinitarian doctrine was influenced by Greek thought. Jepson denies this of course.

redleghunter said:

Actually notice the distinction. The "dead" are in Hades, and the body is in the Grave.

Jesus in Luke 23:42-43 tells the repentant criminal next to Him he would be in Paradise with Him that day. With the body of Jesus in the grave this means His soul/spirit went to Paradise.

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This is about time frame perspective.
When any of us die (or fall asleep for that matter) the next thing we know is when we waken.

From the perspective of another this could be a twinkling of an eye or it could be thousands of years.

But to the person experiencing the death the intermediate time frame is irrelevant, and from God's perspective, well He operates independantly of any time frame.
So for Jesus to tell the thief that he would be in paradise with Him today is perfectly true.

He could have also told the thief that all of the believers from all ages would also be there today and been truthful, but that would have confused the issue some what.

A number of disputes have arisen from apparent contradictions in the Bible that arise from a misunderstanding of the nature of time and all can be resolved with a correct understanding that does not require the import of pagan mythology.

redleghunter said:

Bolded above I already addressed now three times .

An expository examination is in order. How can Jesus bring back a grave? Well this gets to the point Paul makes in 2 Corinthians 4-5 and Philippians 1:

Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-17)​

Note, what is very important is Paul’s use of the ‘outer’ and ‘inner’ man above leads into 2 Corinthians 5:1-10:

For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again. ( Philippians 1:21-26) ​

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For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. (2 Corinthians 5)

Note, that Paul, speaking of his body, says that "we do not want to be unclothed", the mortal flesh will be swallowed up by life.
This is so we can put on immortality, that is the spiritual resurrection body.
We are not designed to live without the body and we do not.

Anguspure said:

This is about time frame perspective.
When any of us die (or fall asleep for that matter) the next thing we know is when we waken.

From the perspective of another this could be a twinkling of an eye or it could be thousands of years.

But to the person experiencing the death the intermediate time frame is irrelevant, and from God's perspective, well He operates independantly of any time frame.
So for Jesus to tell the thief that he would be in paradise with Him today is perfectly true.

He could have also told the thief that all of the believers from all ages would also be there today and been truthful, but that would have confused the issue some what.

A number of disputes have arisen from apparent contradictions in the Bible that arise from a misunderstanding of the nature of time and all can be resolved with a correct understanding that does not require the import of pagan mythology.

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Quite frankly this is not even an argument above.

Mere speculation.

As I stated in response to the West data, just because West asserts there is no inner man as Paul has demonstrated there truly is, does not mean West is right and Paul is wrong.

Given your response above we must now re-interpret Luke 23:42-43 to make it fit West's theology instead of taking it for what is presented.

Anguspure said:

For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. (2 Corinthians 5)

Note, that Paul, speaking of his body, says that "we do not want to be unclothed", the mortal flesh will be swallowed up by life.
This is so we can put on immortality, that is the spiritual resurrection body.
We are not designed to live without the body and we do not.

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Of course we all want to go from a Yugo to a Cadillac. That is what Paul is saying. No one wants to wait for their glorification. I sure don't. But notice even not the most desired of conditions, Paul tempers this by saying when we are not in our mortal bodies we are present with the Lord.

redleghunter said:

Quite frankly this is not even an argument above.

Mere speculation.

As I stated in response to the West data, just because West asserts there is no inner man as Paul has demonstrated there truly is, does not mean West is right and Paul is wrong.

Given your response above we must now re-interpret Luke 23:42-43 to make it fit West's theology instead of taking it for what is presented.

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When we discover something about the created world, created by the God of Abraham, that clears up a scriptural controversy (and in this case a number of controversies are cleared up) it is not mere speculation rather it is a revelation of a mystery.
We could relegate the revelation to the dust bin and so choose to remain ignorant and in confusion, or we could choose to see things in the light of revealed truth.

BTW you misrepresent Wests argument. He is not denying the "inner man", rather he is denying that the inner man continues to live independantely of a body forever.

redleghunter said:

Of course we all want to go from a Yugo to a Cadillac. That is what Paul is saying. No one wants to wait for their glorification. I sure don't. But notice even not the most desired of conditions, Paul tempers this by saying when we are not in our mortal bodies we are present with the Lord.

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Yes, Our names are in the Lambs book of life.
He retains the knowledge of who we are and does not write our names in the dust from which ressurection would no longer be possible.
In this sense we are with Him.
But there is no need to invoke thousands of years of sitting around twiddling thumbs (woops no thumbs to twiddle) waiting for ressurection when from our perspective we will be resurrected with Him today.

Anguspure said:

When we discover something about the created world, created by the God of Abraham, that clears up a scriptural controversy (and in this case a number of controversies are cleared up) it is not mere speculation rather it is a revelation of a mystery.
We could relegate the revelation to the dust bin and so choose to remain ignorant and in confusion, or we could choose to see things in the light of revealed truth.

BTW you misrepresent Wests argument. He is not denying the "inner man", rather he is denying that the inner man continues to live independantely of a body forever.

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Perhaps you can link me to West's site or where you are getting your source material from . I could find no hits on an RW West search which regarded his ministry or writings.

Anguspure said:

Yes, Our names are in the Lambs book of life.
He retains the knowledge of who we are and does not write our names in the dust from which ressurection would no longer be possible.
In this sense we are with Him.
But there is no need to invoke thousands of years of sitting around twiddling thumbs (woops no thumbs to twiddle) waiting for ressurection when from our perspective we will be resurrected with Him today.

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Your position is we are just a memory in a book. Is it at least an animated book?

redleghunter said:

Your position is we are just a memory in a book. Is it at least an animated book?

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It is He who creates and sustains all that is, and it is He who raises us to new life in Him.

Our names are written on every cell of our body and when our bodies are destroyed He promises us that we will not be forgotten.

It is the very bosom of Abraham, the Mind of the one who Loves us, the Heart of God.

Nevertheless we sleep in Him and it is He who wakes us to new life.

Anguspure said:

It is He who creates and sustains all that is, and it is He who raises us to new life in Him.

Our names are written on every cell of our body and when our bodies are destroyed He promises us that we will not be forgotten.

It is the very bosom of Abraham, the Mind of the one who Loves us, the Heart of God.

Nevertheless we sleep in Him and it is He who wakes us to new life.

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That sounds nice but is purely materialistic.

I find that God has more than one angel set over how we are to understand things

Rev 5:11-13 (ESV2011)
Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

Isa 60:1-5 (ESV2011)
Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you. For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples; but the LORD will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you. And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you.

I wonder if the concept of bodily resurrection to eternal life would have arisen in any other religious tradition than a Biblical one?
In Hinduism, the endless rebirth into different life forms is not a good thing. The physical world in Platonism is a lesser world. Buddhism is all about escaping the desires that tie us to life.
But the Torah is all about desire. The creature from the red mud sees it as his biggest tragedy that he was tricked out of being that very same mud creature eternally. Losing himself in his work in the field, or making a name for himself, or building towers that go on forever was all a poor substitute.
God himself did not much discourage this, not for the individual anyways. He rewards Jacob's cheating ways in his desire to take the blessing belonging to his older brother by giving in to those desires, albeit with the suffering that comes from a bad hip. He encourages the desires that come with the desires of life in the body, life in the flesh, by encouraging us to embrace the suffering that comes with it even. Pick up your cross. That is what bodies are capable of experience.

Being tied to the body ties us to the mud, binds us to this world integrally. It is quite a courageous stance actually. It is much easier to contemplate eternity in the spirit and spiritual heaven than eternal life in the body on earth, on a new earth even.
The life of Forms and perfection in spiritual bliss is much easier for any of us embodied mud creatures to contemplate spending eternity in.

This is not really the biblical perspective though. Abraham's desire was for living on in this world, if not in body, then in name, and vicariously through a lineage of ancestors that would carry on forever. Abraham was certainly not a Buddhist, or a Platonist for that matter. The life he wanted forever was the life that he had.
The first real biblical evidence for bodily resurrection and all that it entails was in Maccabees, I think, and about the seven brothers tortured and killed by the Greeks, proclaiming that those very bodies maimed and disfigured would be restored.

This is not a typical belief. It is more pleasant to dream of a eternal spiritual existence in bliss of heaven, than living eternally as a mud creature. Nietzche considered this a form of nihilism, like Buddhism too, only less sophisticated than that.
And maybe, in his embrace of that dark secret thought that came to him in his most private of thoughts, in the embrace of eternal recurrence, living one's life exactly as it is written in one's own biography, every bite and every breath and every moment of involuntary flatulence, as eternal recurrence, he is the one that comes closest to desiring what resurrection of the body, as desired by the people of the Torah, really meant to them.
Bodily resurrection really challenges my own nihilistic tendencies.