The Bowls of Wrath - Key Detail in Daniel

ThatCanadianDude_88 · May 25, 2018

Hey Everyone

Want to share something and get your opinion, what do you think?

There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. (Revelations 13:15)

Leave out the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot forty-two months. (Revelations 11:2)

From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! (Daniel 12:11-12)

42 months = 1290 days = 3.5 years
1335 - 1290 = 45 days

I believe that the pivotal event in Revelations is the 7th and final trumpet. The reign of the anti-christ ends, for "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ."

This must happen because of Christ's return in glory and His revealing to the world. We also know that this moment is synonymous with the union of Christ with His church as per several scriptures such as Titus 2:13. Everything converges here.

It is also my opinion that the 1335th day represents the establishment of the Messianic kingdom, when "the knowledge of God will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea".

Putting all this together, in summary:

The return of Christ in glory at the seventh and final trumpet on the 1290th day marks the end of the anti-christ's reign, at which point the Messianic kingdom is foreseen and Christ is united with His church, effectively removing the Holy Spirit from the earth.

During this 45 day period that follows, Christ presents his purified and complete bride to the Father in heaven, the marriage supper of the lamb takes place along with the Bema seat judgment (crowns and rewards), meanwhile on the earth the 7 bowls of wrath are being poured on an unrepentant mankind in quick succession in judgement for his rebellion and spiritual harlotry.

After the bowls are poured, Christ returns with His now glorified church, the battle of Armageddon takes place, Christ overthrows this final world kingdom with the word of His mouth, He slays the enemies of God, purges Israel of her rebels, saves the remnant and sets up the Messianic kingdom, the 1335th day from when the anti-christ is given authority to reign.

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

OK you are taking numbers and just tacking onto them events that you see and saying "eh? eh?" This is not how the word of God should be understood. It is understood with deliberate principle and wisdom.

I could do the same. Like, how about the rapture occurring at the 45 days and that's it. Nothing else that you are talking about matters then. All the 45 days are, are the time it takes for the rapture to happen.

There is no enduring principle to substantiate any of your claims about Christ and the Bride here. In order to get these things right, you have to go back and look at EVERY prophecy in scripture.

You've got ONE thing super wrong in this whole interpretation and that is: "the knowledge of God covers the earth as the waters cover the sea." You can NOT just throw these prophecies around man. That is NOT where this prophecy gets fulfilled. But we would have to go WAY back to get oriented correctly.

I'll start by pointing you in the direction of natural knowledge. God made all the lights in the expanse for the purpose of what? It says to know the times and seasons. So you need to understand the natural working order of our times and seasons WAY before you start interpreting these prophecies.

As it is, we are in the 12th age of mankind. There are only 12 ages. Do you know what that is? Have you heard this before? It's the age of Aquarius. Do you know the meaning of this? Do you understand the meaning of each age in the right spiritual sense? Christ came in the age of Pisces: a fish. Christ came in the age of the fish and made his disciples fisherman. As it says:

Behold, I am sending for many fishers, declares the LORD, and they shall catch them. And afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks. ~Jeremiah 16:16

So when did the fishing age end? When did the hunting age begin? You need to be able to answer these things WAY before you start interpreting revelations.

As it is, the age of Aquarius signifies the age of the outpouring of God's Spirit on all flesh. It is THIS age in which that prophecy you mentioned occurs and that is CERTAINLY before the second coming of Christ.

So keep learning EVERYTHING and it will start adding up sooner or later.

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
OK you are taking numbers and just tacking onto them events that you see and saying "eh? eh?" This is not how the word of God should be understood. It is understood with deliberate principle and wisdom.

Say someone with lack of biblical wisdom by trying to interpret God's prophecies with astrology and horoscopes like "Age of Aquarius", "age of Pisces", "12 age of mankind", etc. No, you do not have Godly wisdom but of the heathen.

Isaiah 47:13-15
[13] Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
[14] Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
[15] Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.

Jeremiah 10:1-2
[1] Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
[2] Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

I'm not dismayed at them. Try to contribute to the thread instead of following me around and badgering.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years. ~Genesis 1:14

So God made them FOR signs and for seasons. And what did God challenge Job to do?

Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?
~Job 38:31-33

There IS a rule and an ordinance in the heavens which God ordained. The heathens are dismayed at their signs because they END. But as it is, this is USEFUL to those who are WISE:

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” ~Matthew 2:1-2

So if you don't see the merits of astronomy and science then that is your problem but don't heckle. Contribute to the thread.

DavidPT · May 25, 2018

ThatCanadianDude_88 said:
Hey Everyone

Want to share something and get your opinion, what do you think?

There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. (Revelations 13:15)

Leave out the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot forty-two months. (Revelations 11:2)

From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! (Daniel 12:11-12)

42 months = 1290 days = 3.5 years
1335 - 1290 = 45 days

I believe that the pivotal event in Revelations is the 7th and final trumpet. The reign of the anti-christ ends, for "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ."

This must happen because of Christ's return in glory and His revealing to the world. We also know that this moment is synonymous with the union of Christ with His church as per several scriptures such as Titus 2:13. Everything converges here.

It is also my opinion that the 1335th day represents the establishment of the Messianic kingdom, when "the knowledge of God will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea".

Putting all this together, in summary:

The return of Christ in glory at the seventh and final trumpet on the 1290th day marks the end of the anti-christ's reign, at which point the Messianic kingdom is foreseen and Christ is united with His church, effectively removing the Holy Spirit from the earth.

During this 45 day period that follows, Christ presents his purified and complete bride to the Father in heaven, the marriage supper of the lamb takes place along with the Bema seat judgment (crowns and rewards), meanwhile on the earth the 7 bowls of wrath are being poured on an unrepentant mankind in quick succession in judgement for his rebellion and spiritual harlotry.

After the bowls are poured, Christ returns with His now glorified church, the battle of Armageddon takes place, Christ overthrows this final world kingdom with the word of His mouth, He slays the enemies of God, purges Israel of her rebels, saves the remnant and sets up the Messianic kingdom, the 1335th day from when the anti-christ is given authority to reign.

To maybe add to what all you stated, assuming we might somewhat be on the same page here, I submit the following.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If the trib of those days are meaning this same 42 month reign of the beast, notice in verse 29 that it is not the 2nd coming that immediately follows that 42 months, but is the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.. The parallel to that in Luke 21 indicates the following.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Followed by----

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

These extra days in Daniel 12 that add up to more than 1260 days for the reign of the beast, could these be what Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are referring to after the great trib but before the 2nd coming? IOW could these be for the vials of wrath? To me it makes little sense the vials of wrath would be being poured out during the 42 month reign of the beast.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This obviously occurs during the 42 month reign.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Suppose this vial were occurring during the 42 month reign. Does it sound reasonable that while his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain---the beast would simultaneously be making war with the saints, and overcoming them? Not to me it doesn't.

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
To maybe add to what all you stated, assuming we might somewhat be on the same page here, I submit the following.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If the trib of those days are meaning this same 42 month reign of the beast, notice in verse 29 that it is not the 2nd coming that immediately follows that 42 months, but is the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.. The parallel to that in Luke 21 indicates the following.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Followed by----

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

These extra days in Daniel 12 that add up to more than 1260 days for the reign of the beast, could these be what Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are referring to after the great trib but before the 2nd coming? IOW could these be for the vials of wrath? To me it makes little sense the vials of wrath would be being poured out during the 42 month reign of the beast.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

This obviously occurs during the 42 month reign.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Suppose this vial were occurring during the 42 month reign. Does it sound reasonable that while his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain---the beast would simultaneously be making war with the saints, and overcoming them?

There are just too many details we are dealing with to possibly be correct. The 7 bowls of God's wrath happen AFTER the 42 month reign of the beast. Try that in your model and you'll see it go much further.

DavidPT · May 25, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
The 7 bowls of God's wrath happen AFTER the 42 month reign of the beast. Try that in your model and you'll see it go much further.

You apparently misunderstood my post somewhere along the line then, since that is exactly what I am saying.

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
You apparently misunderstood my post somewhere along the line then, since that is exactly what I am saying.

Yep I did. Ok good.

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years. ~Genesis 1:14

So God made them FOR signs and for seasons.

I see that. So? It is only a reference to the stars as signs as means to help with make calendars, understanding weather, mark the seasons of the year, to give light on Earth, as tool and guidance for Agriculture, and Navigation. Do you realize that animals that God created like moth, green sea turtle, salmons, and birds depend on the stars for navigation purpose, humm? Of course, these are for SIGNS and for SEASONS! Nothing more like predicting the return of Christ, or the fall of Soviet Union, or the battle of Gog and Magog, or the rapture on September 2017 or any crap that some Christians are trying to come up with.

And what did God challenge Job to do?

Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?
~Job 38:31-33

What do you think? Does this even mean as a hint to Job or you that we could interpret God's end-time prophecies with stars this way? Hello?

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

Click to expand...

~Matthew 2:1-2

Again, it is just a SIGN that God revealed to the wise men that the king of the Jews has been born and a mean of navigation for them. Tell me, can you astronomically explain the Biblical Star of Bethlehem? Tell us...as you know that virtually all the stars remain fixed in their places, the stars rise and set every night, but they do not move relative to each other. So did the Star of Bethlehem moved along with all other stars from west to east or stay above the town of Bethlehem the whole time?

Think about the what happened to "physical star" of Bethlehem, if you think it is, as the earth rotates for a period from Wise Man's discovery, the traveling, and to worship the king as a TODDLER, rather than newborn. I say that it is a temporary supernatural star that God established for that purpose.

So if you don't see the merits of astronomy and science then that is your problem but don't heckle. Contribute to the thread.

I am just warning you not to use astronomy and science to interpret God's prophecies which is typical of many Christians are trying to do for decades. Remember the so-called Revelation 12 Sign is another proof of why people should not interpret prophecies based on what they see in the sky.

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
I see that. So? It is only a reference to the stars as signs as means to help with make calendars, understanding weather, mark the seasons of the year, to give light on Earth, as tool and guidance for Agriculture, and Navigation. Do you realize that animals that God created like moth, green sea turtle, salmons, and birds depend on the stars for navigation purpose, humm? Of course, these are for SIGNS and for SEASONS! Nothing more like predicting the return of Christ, or the fall of Soviet Union, or the battle of Gog and Magog, or the rapture on September 2017 or any crap that some Christians are trying to come up with.

What do you think? Does this even mean as a hint to Job or you that we could interpret God's end-time prophecies with stars this way? Hello?

Again, it is just a SIGN that God revealed to the wise men that the king of the Jews has been born and a mean of navigation for them. Tell me, can you astronomically explain the Biblical Star of Bethlehem? Think about it. As you know that virtually all the stars remain fixed in their places, the stars rise and set every night, but they do not move relative to each other. If you suggest that the star to be physical or something like planets being lined up, so tell me what happened to "physical star" of Bethlehem as the earth rotates for a period from Wise Man's discovery, the traveling, and to worship the king as a TODDLER, rather than newborn. I say that it is a temporary supernatural star that God established for that purpose.

I am just warning you not to use astronomy and science to interpret God's prophecies which is typical of many Christians are trying to do for decades. Remember the so-called Revelation 12 Sign is another proof of why people should not interpret prophecies based on what they see in the sky.

So it's too much for you but that doesn't change its merit. Obviously God would not make the ordinances and the rule of the stars confuse the understanding of prophecy. So you're problem with this is not with me but with God. God made them and they have an ordinance and a rule on the earth. If you knew what that was, that would make things more clear to you, as in the case of the prophecy: "the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea."

And all these things WILL be revealed because of that prophecy. That prophecy shows that everything will be explained. So get ready because it's coming. Everyone will know and understand all the knowledge of the Lord:

Give ear, and hear my voice;
give attention, and hear my speech.
Does he who plows for sowing plow continually?
Does he continually open and harrow his ground?
When he has leveled its surface,
does he not scatter dill, sow cumin,
and put in wheat in rows
and barley in its proper place,
and emmer as the border?
For he is rightly instructed;
his God teaches him.

Dill is not threshed with a threshing sledge,
nor is a cart wheel rolled over cumin,
but dill is beaten out with a stick,
and cumin with a rod.
Does one crush grain for bread?
No, he does not thresh it forever;
when he drives his cart wheel over it
with his horses, he does not crush it.
This also comes from the Lord of hosts;
he is wonderful in counsel
and excellent in wisdom.
~Isaiah 28:23-29

So this is an example of NATURAL knowledge that God claims for his glory. So none of the natural things will be left out in this prophecy.

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
So it's too much for you but that doesn't change its merit. Obviously God would not make the ordinances and the rule of the stars confuse the understanding of prophecy. So you're problem with this is not with me but with God. God made them and they have an ordinance and a rule on the earth. If you knew what that was, that would make things more clear to you, as in the case of the prophecy: "the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea."

Funny. Say someone who refused to explain the sign of the star of Bethlehem.

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Funny. Say someone who refused to explain the sign of the star of Bethlehem.

Stop being pretentious. You haven't offered anything to show that what I'm saying is wrong. You're just making mouths.

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
Suppose this vial were occurring during the 42 month reign. Does it sound reasonable that while his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain---the beast would simultaneously be making war with the saints, and overcoming them? Not to me it doesn't.

I realize it is a premillennial doctrine where some people thinking everything in the book of Revelation to be understood physically. And based on their interpretation of physical time frames. For example, 42 months, 7 years, 1,260 days, 1,290 days, one hour, etc. I used to teach this before but I do not believe this is how God wanted us to understand this. God doesn't keep His True Believers in the church that he is about to judge. That is why God commanded them to come out of her so they will not be a partaker of church's judgment (plague). With the believers out, like God did with Lot in days of Sodom as an example. What is left of the fallen city are professed Christians along with false prophets and christs that are ruling (sit) in the temple (church) to be judged?

Allow me to explain about the judgment bowl of Revelation 16:10:

In symbolic terms, the stars fall from heaven, the sun becomes dark, the moon turns to blood. The tongue in scripture usually "signifies" either speech or language. And darkness is the opposite of light, the absence of Christ. So with gnawing of their tongues, it means there is a time of darkness and silence that the tongue of the professed Christians, as well as, false prophets and christs cannot any longer speak the gospel truth, Psalms 119:172! This is again spiritual imagery signifying:

#1. the removal of gospel light and
#2. a famine of hearing the word of God (darkness and Chewing of tongue).

The same portrait that is painted when God says in 2nd Thessalonians that the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) shall be taken out of the midst of the Holy Temple that the man of sin (sinful man) be revealed. It's all pointing to God's judgment on the church for their spiritual fornication.

This passage is not informing anyone that unfaithful people will literally be gnawing (chewing) their tongues off because of physical pain, rather it is spiritual imagery signifying God sending them strong delusion, which is spiritual anguish. And this causes them to become silent as far as the gospel goes. This signified by this imagery of them chewing their tongues that it can no longer be used for God's (Isaiah 50:4) purposes. In other words, that they become "speechless" or "silent." as if they no longer preach Gospel truth anymore in the unfaithful congregation as a judgment. The opposite of those who have been given the tongue to preach the kingdom.

Isaiah 50:4

"The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned."

God's faithful people have been given the tongue of the knowledge of God that we might preach the gospel to the world that His elect might be saved. But under this bowl judgment, that tongue has been taken away from the Church by this plague/judgment of God poured out upon it! Selah! It is akin to when God says that a tongue shall cleave (stick/cling) to the roof of their mouth. It is language illustrating that they cannot speak (the tongue being used to speak). To be a kingdom "NOW" full of darkness and that they chew their tongues indicates that those with the mark of the beast now sit in darkness, or in other words without Christ that they are brought to silence.

1st Samuel 2:9

"He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail."

Gnawing their tongues in darkness is REAL JUDGMENT of the Lord upon those professed Christians who have forsaken Him and do not love the Truth. They presumed to judge by what seems right in their own eyes, rather than by the Word. Doing that means they have become the sinful/lawless man of Antichrist rather than the lawful/righteous man of God. It is because of this, God's discomforting them, they are left dumb or mute in spiritually chewing their tongues speechless because of their sin of serving the beast. As it is written...

Psalms 12:3

"The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:"

Proverbs 10:31

"The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out."

God, Himself has done this to the tongue of the unfaithful. He has caused the wicked tongue to be chewed signifying that they can no longer be a spokesperson for God, but mute concerning spiritual things. This is how people in the congregation will no longer find salvation, Revelation 9. The Spirit is taken out of the way, or literally removed from the midst (2nd Thess 2) of them. A famine of hearing the Word of God (Amos 8:11) is the result! Again, to think this means people are literally chewing their tongues because of pain is nonsensical!. No one literally chews or gnaws on their tongue because of physical pain! This is a figure of speech which when comparing scripture with scripture we understand is used in order to portray the tongue as the purveyor of speech.

Ezekiel 3:26

"And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house."

See? The Tongue cleaving/sticking/clinging to the roof of someone's mouth is to signify they cannot speak (be a reprover), exactly the same illustration of the tongue being chewed because of God's wrath that they sit in darkness...for they are a rebellious house! An unfaithful church! Spiritually Babylon!

As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun!

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
I realize it is a premillennial doctrine where some people thinking everything in the book of Revelation to be understood physically. And based on their interpretation of physical time frames. For example, 42 months, 7 years, 1,260 days, 1,290 days, one hour, etc. I used to teach this before but I do not believe this is how God wanted us to understand this. God doesn't keep His True Believers in the church that he is about to judge. That is why God commanded them to come out of her so they will not be a partaker of church's judgment (plague). With the believers out, like God did with Lot in days of Sodom as an example. What is left of the fallen city are professed Christians along with false prophets and christs that are ruling (sit) in the temple (church) to be judged?

Allow me to explain about the judgment bowl of Revelation 16:10:

In symbolic terms, the stars fall from heaven, the sun becomes dark, the moon turns to blood. The tongue in scripture usually "signifies" either speech or language. And darkness is the opposite of light, the absence of Christ. So with gnawing of their tongues, it means there is a time of darkness and silence that the tongue of the professed Christians, as well as, false prophets and christs cannot any longer speak the gospel truth, Psalms 119:172! This is again spiritual imagery signifying:

#1. the removal of gospel light and
#2. a famine of hearing the word of God (darkness and Chewing of tongue).

The same portrait that is painted when God says in 2nd Thessalonians that the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) shall be taken out of the midst of the Holy Temple that the man of sin (sinful man) be revealed. It's all pointing to God's judgment on the church for their spiritual fornication.

This passage is not informing anyone that unfaithful people will literally be gnawing (chewing) their tongues off because of physical pain, rather it is spiritual imagery signifying God sending them strong delusion, which is spiritual anguish. And this causes them to become silent as far as the gospel goes. This signified by this imagery of them chewing their tongues that it can no longer be used for God's (Isaiah 50:4) purposes. In other words, that they become "speechless" or "silent." as if they no longer preach Gospel truth anymore in the unfaithful congregation as a judgment. The opposite of those who have been given the tongue to preach the kingdom.

Isaiah 50:4

"The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned."

God's faithful people have been given the tongue of the knowledge of God that we might preach the gospel to the world that His elect might be saved. But under this bowl judgment, that tongue has been taken away from the Church by this plague/judgment of God poured out upon it! Selah! It is akin to when God says that a tongue shall cleave (stick/cling) to the roof of their mouth. It is language illustrating that they cannot speak (the tongue being used to speak). To be a kingdom "NOW" full of darkness and that they chew their tongues indicates that those with the mark of the beast now sit in darkness, or in other words without Christ that they are brought to silence.

1st Samuel 2:9

"He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail."

Gnawing their tongues in darkness is REAL JUDGMENT of the Lord upon those professed Christians who have forsaken Him and do not love the Truth. They presumed to judge by what seems right in their own eyes, rather than by the Word. Doing that means they have become the sinful/lawless man of Antichrist rather than the lawful/righteous man of God. It is because of this, God's discomforting them, they are left dumb or mute in spiritually chewing their tongues speechless because of their sin of serving the beast. As it is written...

Psalms 12:3

"The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:"

Proverbs 10:31

"The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out."

God, Himself has done this to the tongue of the unfaithful. He has caused the wicked tongue to be chewed signifying that they can no longer be a spokesperson for God, but mute concerning spiritual things. This is how people in the congregation will no longer find salvation, Revelation 9. The Spirit is taken out of the way, or literally removed from the midst (2nd Thess 2) of them. A famine of hearing the Word of God (Amos 8:11) is the result! Again, to think this means people are literally chewing their tongues because of pain is nonsensical!. No one literally chews or gnaws on their tongue because of physical pain! This is a figure of speech which when comparing scripture with scripture we understand is used in order to portray the tongue as the purveyor of speech.

Ezekiel 3:26

"And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house."

See? The Tongue cleaving/sticking/clinging to the roof of someone's mouth is to signify they cannot speak (be a reprover), exactly the same illustration of the tongue being chewed because of God's wrath that they sit in darkness...for they are a rebellious house! An unfaithful church! Spiritually Babylon!

As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun!

OR

They actually chew their tongues out and you wasted all this time trying to explain something that is easy to see. Nothing of what you said PROVES your point, all you said IS your point. It could just as easily be that they actually chew their tongues out!

But because you think you're smart you think you've found out the secret message written in revelations when its right there in front of your face!

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
They actually chew their tongues out and you wasted all this time trying to explain something that is easy to see. Nothing of what you said PROVES your point, all you said IS your point. It could just as easily be that they actually chew their tongues out!

But because you think you're smart you think you've found out the secret message written in revelations when its right there in front of your face!

Well, I am not surprised by your response. God revealed the truth to me when I compare Scripture with Scripture which I did in my previous post. Too bad you do not like it or receive it.

Think about it for a moment. If you insist that people can chew their tongues off because of physical pains, then what kingdom is it that become full of darkness...literally? What darkness is it? Literally, lack of the sun? You must be consistency in your interpretation! Duh!

I am the one who has quoted Scriptures to prove my position and allowed Scripture to compare with Scripture to show that God has indeed caused people to gnaw their tongues SPIRITUALLY to mean that they no longer be His spokesperson! The painful sores signify their spiritual disease that they refuse to repent so God caused them to believe a lie by taking away God's Word out of their mouth as a testimony! All they have is false doctrines (lying signs and wonders) that they become the spokesperson for the Devil! This is HOW their kingdom (unfaithful congregation) has SPIRITUALLY become full of darkness because of the lack of Gospel Light as a judgment! Selah!

Geez... you just don't like it or receive it because it comes as foolish to you because you are a natural man who reads the book of Revelation carnally! You missed the point! The book of Revelation is to be understood spiritually discerned, like it or not!

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
I am the one who has quoted Scriptures to prove my position and allowed Scripture to compare with Scripture to show that God has indeed caused people to gnaw their tongues SPIRITUALLY to mean that they no longer be His spokesperson!

God doesn't need that because they are already not his spokesperson at all. Please give a better sense of it.

But to the wicked God says: “What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips? ~Psalm 50:16

Now stay with me even for a moment. What did Christ pray to God?

"Let your will on earth be as it is in heaven"

So what YOU are saying, is that God's will in heaven has to have them chew their tongues out so that his word ON EARTH gets fulfillment. And this is fundamentally backwards!

God's will in heaven is what the earth follows but you are interpreting all of scripture as if the earth was the star of the show, when it isn't by any stretch of the imagination.

You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”? ~Isaiah 29:16

Keep it simple and do not go beyond what is written. The mode of understanding that you have is backwards, which I've told you from the beginning but you can't bear to hear that lest it all be in vain.

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2018

Kevin Snow said:
God doesn't need that because they are already not his spokesperson at all. Please give a better sense of it.

Sigh. You do not get it. Of course, we BOTH know that the unsaved world are not God's spokesperson. God is talking about the professed believers in HIS KINGDOM (church) that was once light but now full of darkness because of their rebellion and abominations.

Now stay with me even for a moment. What did Christ pray to God?

"Let your will on earth be as it is in heaven"

So what YOU are saying, is that God's will in heaven has to have them chew their tongues out so that his word ON EARTH gets fulfillment. And this is fundamentally backwards!

Don't you read Scripture? What does God say about His bowls?

Revelation 16:1

[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

That is where the fulfillment is.

God's will in heaven is what the earth follows but you are interpreting all of scripture as if the earth was the star of the show, when it isn't by any stretch of the imagination.

Colossians 1:13

[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Do you realize that God's Kingdom is on earth? Guess the spirituality of the kingdom of God is offensive to you today.

Where now, we must ask, is this spiritual kingdom of God? Where does God rule by the Word and Spirit of Jesus Christ? Where are righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost? Where is the Truth? Where are the people who bow willingly to God in Christ by believing the gospel and obeying the law—obeying the law truly, with love in their hearts? Where on earth is there at least the small beginning of God’s being all in all?

Where in the past 2000 years or so of New Testament history, since Jesus was exalted as king at God’s right hand in the ascension, have there always been these realities? Where alone have these things be found?

The answer to these questions will be the identification of the kingdom of God.

The answer is The church! The church is the kingdom of God!

In addition to the texts that teach that God’s kingdom is spiritual, the following passages of Scripture are among those that plainly teach that the church is the kingdom of God. There is the well-known word of Jesus Christ to Peter after the disciple confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 16:18,19
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”

The passage explicitly mentions the church: “I will build my church.” To the church is given “the keys of the kingdom of heaven!” These keys are the spiritual power to bind in sin or loose from sin and thus admit into or exclude from the kingdom of heaven. Only the kingdom itself exercises its keys. The church, therefore, is the kingdom of heaven. This is confirmed by the Lord’s teaching that the church fights the gates of hell, right here on earth - the star of the show!

DavidPT · May 25, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
I realize it is a premillennial doctrine where some people thinking everything in the book of Revelation to be understood physically. And based on their interpretation of physical time frames. For example, 42 months, 7 years, 1,260 days, 1,290 days, one hour, etc. I used to teach this before but I do not believe this is how God wanted us to understand this. God doesn't keep His True Believers in the church that he is about to judge. That is why God commanded them to come out of her so they will not be a partaker of church's judgment (plague). With the believers out, like God did with Lot in days of Sodom as an example. What is left of the fallen city are professed Christians along with false prophets and christs that are ruling (sit) in the temple (church) to be judged?

Allow me to explain about the judgment bowl of Revelation 16:10:

In symbolic terms, the stars fall from heaven, the sun becomes dark, the moon turns to blood. The tongue in scripture usually "signifies" either speech or language. And darkness is the opposite of light, the absence of Christ. So with gnawing of their tongues, it means there is a time of darkness and silence that the tongue of the professed Christians, as well as, false prophets and christs cannot any longer speak the gospel truth, Psalms 119:172! This is again spiritual imagery signifying:

#1. the removal of gospel light and
#2. a famine of hearing the word of God (darkness and Chewing of tongue).

The same portrait that is painted when God says in 2nd Thessalonians that the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) shall be taken out of the midst of the Holy Temple that the man of sin (sinful man) be revealed. It's all pointing to God's judgment on the church for their spiritual fornication.

This passage is not informing anyone that unfaithful people will literally be gnawing (chewing) their tongues off because of physical pain, rather it is spiritual imagery signifying God sending them strong delusion, which is spiritual anguish. And this causes them to become silent as far as the gospel goes. This signified by this imagery of them chewing their tongues that it can no longer be used for God's (Isaiah 50:4) purposes. In other words, that they become "speechless" or "silent." as if they no longer preach Gospel truth anymore in the unfaithful congregation as a judgment. The opposite of those who have been given the tongue to preach the kingdom.

Isaiah 50:4

"The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned."

God's faithful people have been given the tongue of the knowledge of God that we might preach the gospel to the world that His elect might be saved. But under this bowl judgment, that tongue has been taken away from the Church by this plague/judgment of God poured out upon it! Selah! It is akin to when God says that a tongue shall cleave (stick/cling) to the roof of their mouth. It is language illustrating that they cannot speak (the tongue being used to speak). To be a kingdom "NOW" full of darkness and that they chew their tongues indicates that those with the mark of the beast now sit in darkness, or in other words without Christ that they are brought to silence.

1st Samuel 2:9

"He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail."

Gnawing their tongues in darkness is REAL JUDGMENT of the Lord upon those professed Christians who have forsaken Him and do not love the Truth. They presumed to judge by what seems right in their own eyes, rather than by the Word. Doing that means they have become the sinful/lawless man of Antichrist rather than the lawful/righteous man of God. It is because of this, God's discomforting them, they are left dumb or mute in spiritually chewing their tongues speechless because of their sin of serving the beast. As it is written...

Psalms 12:3

"The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:"

Proverbs 10:31

"The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out."

God, Himself has done this to the tongue of the unfaithful. He has caused the wicked tongue to be chewed signifying that they can no longer be a spokesperson for God, but mute concerning spiritual things. This is how people in the congregation will no longer find salvation, Revelation 9. The Spirit is taken out of the way, or literally removed from the midst (2nd Thess 2) of them. A famine of hearing the Word of God (Amos 8:11) is the result! Again, to think this means people are literally chewing their tongues because of pain is nonsensical!. No one literally chews or gnaws on their tongue because of physical pain! This is a figure of speech which when comparing scripture with scripture we understand is used in order to portray the tongue as the purveyor of speech.

Ezekiel 3:26

"And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house."

See? The Tongue cleaving/sticking/clinging to the roof of someone's mouth is to signify they cannot speak (be a reprover), exactly the same illustration of the tongue being chewed because of God's wrath that they sit in darkness...for they are a rebellious house! An unfaithful church! Spiritually Babylon!

As saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun!

Even though you provided plenty that seems to support your assertions, I can support my assertions with just one passage. Who might be correct in this case, who knows.

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

How do you interpret this passage? Do you think this literally happened, thus was fulfilled physically historically? Assuming you might, when in Revelation 16 it indicates they gnawed their tongues for pain, why can't it be from darkness that can literally be felt, the same way the darkness per Exodus 10:21 could be felt?

Kevin Snow · May 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
Even though you provided plenty that seems to support your assertions, I can support my assertions with just one passage. Who might be correct in this case, who knows.

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

How do you interpret this passage? Do you think this literally happened, thus was fulfilled physically historically? Assuming you might, when in Revelation 16 it indicates they gnawed their tongues for pain, why can't it be from darkness that can literally be felt, the same way the darkness per Exodus 10:21 could be felt?

Exactly, this TribulationSigns can't take a hint. He is deluded with his own ideas and has totally missed it.

This is the problem with Gnostics, they have an appearance of wisdom but it's just one big rabbit hole that goes to nowhere, even death.

He can't see the basic fact that when it says they gnaw their tongues that they gnaw their tongues. He's got to blow it up into his own thinking.

This is what Christ said,

"The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood." ~John 7:18

He seeks his own glory ultimately in what he is able to accomplish, rather than in the meekness of God's implanted word.

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2018

DavidPT said:
Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

How do you interpret this passage? Do you think this literally happened, thus was fulfilled physically historically?

Yes! Of course, they were literal, physical events, but where you are wrong is that they were also a type or representations of - - all of them! It is...

The Old Testament concealed is the New Testament revealed.

The future plan of God for New Testament Congregation is often hidden in the past.

Proverbs 25:2
[2] It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Yes, there was a physical darkness over the land of Egypt AS A TYPE for New Testament Congregation! Didn't you read the Scripture that the great city (God's kingdom on earth, the home of Two Witnesses) has BECAME what is spiritually is called Egypt?

Revelation 11:7-8
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The Two Witnesses are the body of Elect. They were given power and responsbility to bring Salvation Gospel to the World for 1,260 days, which is symbolically the whole New Testament period. The beast was kept in bottomless pit so that it will not frustate the building of God's church until God has finished sealing all of HIS people (symboically 144,000, Revelation 7:1-4) through the testimony of the Two Witnesses. Once God is finished, the Two Witnesses' testimony for salvaiton is finished. This is when the beast comes out of bottomless pit. The beast is the body of professed Christians. They will wage a spiritual war against the Elect to the point that they have replaced God's authority with their own as we can see that is taking over God's congregations all over the world lately! Haven't you noticed? For example, we are seeing many false prophets selling prosperity gospel, political gospel, the me gospel, the social gospel, tolerate of homosexuality and gender neuturity, "Your Best Life Now" Gospel, divorce and remarriage, claim it, and humanism based gospel, etc. These are "abominations" that caused the church to fall into spiritual desolation. The abomination of desolation. THUS, is when the city has spiritually become like Egypt and Sodom where God will start judge her! In other words, the city has become spiritually darkness just like God did with Egypt physically back in the book of Exodus as a picture! Do you get it now?

I do not deny biblical historical events in Egypt because they only can be understood spiritually when we read about the same plagues in the book of Revelation. The signs are all around us, and only those with the Spirit of God to discern unfaithfulness from faithfulness will see them. The rest, like you, are still looking at national Israel, physical wars and rumors of wars, Iraq, global warming, Third Temple buildings, etc., looking in all the wrong places.

Ezekiel 9:6

"Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."

1st Peter 4:17

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

It's a just, righteous and general principle!

Assuming you might, when in Revelation 16 it indicates they gnawed their tongues for pain, why can't it be from darkness that can literally be felt, the same way the darkness per Exodus 10:21 could be felt?

No, no, no. The darkness of Egypt in Exodus is a type of SPIRITUAL darkness of Spiritual Egypt which is the New Testament Congregation, the church. A spiritual darkness means there is no Spirit of God in the unfaithful congregation since God is judging her for unfaithfulness with their false doctrines. Do you get it now? Else you totally miss it because you are busy looking for fulfillment over there in the Middle East with Russia, Iran, Israel, etc. while many people are unaware that church all over the world is currently experiencing the battle of Gog and Magog. (Hint: The armies of Gog and Magog, if you read carefully what they wear and what weapons they bring against the mountain (New Testament kingdom) of Israel which is, of course, the Church, are the false prophets and christs. Not Russians!)

The Bowls of Wrath - Key Detail in Daniel

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