Messianics who preach circumcision

ralliann

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This is a Messianic Judaism forum - did you not expect to hear about Judaism within Christianity, and vice versa ? :)
Did the Levitical priesthood not practice Judaism as well? I have heard very little in Messianic Judaism about their ritual purity, holiness etc. In traditional Christianity I have.
No need for the carnal commands for the heavenly priesthood. Including being Jewis by or through natural birth, or circumcision......
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
 
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ralliann

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I don't think anyone has disagreed with you that [Christian] Baptism is for salvation. However, circumcision does not make you an Israelite - it makes you a Jew! There are Israeli Jews, English Jews, French Jews, African Jews, US Jews, German Jews etc etc. They are Jews, not Israelites!
Ahh, but why preach a need to be Jew? Unless it was being preached that only Jews can be a ministers in the priesthood of Messiah...
I have already agreed with you that if one gets circumcised then you are required to keep the whole of G_d's Law. Paul's argument was against the legalism that was a burden to the people - as Yeshua said: I tell you, do what the Pharisees say, but not as they do. In other words, they teach the Law that has to be obeyed, but they pervert it [by legalism and lipservice] and lead the people astray - they travel across the seas to find a convert, and when they have found one, he is made worst than them.
I think the Pharisees taught ( and still do) that only Jews minister liturgical service (circumcised) the priesthood of the Messianic age.
I think that is what it was all about....
Paul explained that circumcision concerning priesthood in Messiah, meant no disannulling of the carnal command. Non Levites not allowed. All else were estranged from drawing nigh to the altar, or enter Gods house. Only in Christ is the carnal command abolished.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

We also male and female, Jew and Gentile share in the holy meal of the priests table.

Le 6:18 All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations concerning the offerings of the LORD made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy.
Le 6:29 All the males among the priests shall eat thereof: it is most holy.
 
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visionary

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Also, the priests had their cleansing rituals specific to them, holy meals which only they had a right to eat of etc. As was already quoted, a Royal priesthood.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
I thought believers were to become part of the royal priesthood.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 
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CherubRam

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That is replacement theology - Gentiles do not become Israel in a new covenant. What it means is that G_d treats us the same, regardless as to whether we are Jews or Gentiles, slave or free, male or female. Today, we have Jews and Gentiles, men and women, slaves and free - but those categories do not change how G_d deals with us, neither does it make us all Jews, all Gentiles, all men, all women, all slaves or all free. The tree is a metaphor, not intended as practical gardening advice.

What we all are is G_d's people - all who believe in the G_d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and G_d's only begotten Son, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh, joined together by / in Him.
Israel was multinational, and is multinational. Besides the Hebrews, other people joined Moses when they came out of Egypt.
 
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visionary

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Did the Levitical priesthood not practice Judaism as well? I have heard very little in Messianic Judaism about their ritual purity, holiness etc. In traditional Christianity I have.
No need for the carnal commands for the heavenly priesthood. Including being Jewis by or through natural birth, or circumcision......
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
We in MJ recognise the futility of ritual purity, but also recognise the significance of obedience to the truth. By obedience, with understanding and commitment to the reason behind the ritual, we know the ritual does not provide the purity, salvation, connection without the personal experience with Him, whom we have come to know through faith in obedience. As it is written "faith without works is dead". We do not do the works without faith. We believe in His covenant and are committed to keeping it. We do not spiritualize it nor neglect it but embrace it in remembrance of its significance to our spiritual life. Just like the spiritual feasting of the feasts each year in their season brings to remembrance the past, the future, and the hope that is in Yeshua.
 
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CherubRam

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Not so. John did not Baptise - John immersed the people. Flowing water is often a metaphor for the Law, John was immersing the people in water as a means of showing them their sin of ignoring the Law and making them repent of this sin, hence the immersion of repentance. Baptism, as a word, was written back into our scriptures, it was not available in Yeshua's time.
Baptism is immersion.
 
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CherubRam

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Bapism is exclusively Christian- it did not exist in Yeshua's time. That is why it says there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Immersion, as Visionary has correctly pointed out, has a number of purposes, one of which is to immerse in a ritual bath for cleansing prior to meeting with G_d in the Temple.

The two have very different purposes and should never be confused with each other.
The first to be baptized were Judeans, by John the Baptist.
 
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Heber Book List

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Israel was multinational, and is multinational. Besides the Hebrews, other people joined Moses when they came out of Egypt.

There is no Israeli law of return for Gentile believers in Messiah. Believers in Yeshua do not become Israel. That is Replacement Theology - at no time do Gentiles become Jews.
 
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visionary

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Circumcision of the heart is for male and female. Which things were shadows of things in Christ. Moses law was 430 after Abraham, and he did not walk in Levitical law, nor was the priesthood the Levites under the order of Aaron.
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
The common Israelites were not priests.
What law did the Levitical priesthood provide? That which comes from man will not last. That which comes from God will be forever. He wrote it in stone, spoke it before the people, and embodied it when He walked the earth. We are to do the same. We are to be the people that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Yeshua.
 
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ralliann

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I thought believers were to become part of the royal priesthood.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
I did not say they were not. We all eat from his food. Which is most holy, just like the priests ate from the high priests table. But, the Pharisees taught the Messianic priesthood to all nations was for them alone. I do not think it was realized this was not the case until Cornelius.
Ac 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
The pressure continued.....

Ga 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
 
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ralliann

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What law did the Levitical priesthood provide? That which comes from man will not last. That which comes from God will be forever. He wrote it in stone, spoke it before the people, and embodied it when He walked the earth. We are to do the same. We are to be the people that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Yeshua.
The Levitical priesthood provided law from God.
De 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
BTW...did the Levitical priesthood practice Judaism too?
 
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visionary

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The Levitical priesthood provided law from God.
De 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
BTW...did the Levitical priesthood practice Judaism too?
Levites did their duty according to the law, but they were not so much teachers of the law. They worked in the temple and with temple services. They had a copy of the which was before them, aka that which was written on parchment, and laid out the outline and details of procedures. Elders of the families instructed the family units, the tribe units, and the government as keepers of the gates. Kings dictated the laws of the land, hopefully according to the word of God. Prophets noted when the Kings went astray misleading the body of people to go astray. They also revealed the consequences. No levite walked around the community, pointing out sins, and dictating they come to the temple to repent. That was taught in the home, at the synagogue, and through the righteous kingdom leaders.
 
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ralliann

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That priesthood is in heaven, not on earth. The priesthood on earth although it is ready to fade away is for the Levites in Israel.

It would not have worked if any of the Gentiles marched into the temple at that time and tried to burn some incense.
It would not have worked for any stranger (estranged). Only the son of Aaron
Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

Stranger here specifically speaks concerning all estranged from the priesthood.
Nor were the common Israelites to eat of the the holy offerings.
Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
 
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visionary

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It would not have worked for any stranger (estranged). Only the son of Aaron
Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

Stranger here specifically speaks concerning all estranged from the priesthood.
Nor were the common Israelites to eat of the the holy offerings.
Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
You know, if I am hired to do a job and it is a very specific job that is only for me to do. No upstart is allowed to take my place. The purpose of the Levites is to perform that which is symbolic of the salvation process in the heavenly temple services which Yeshua is performing as our High Priest in the heavenly temple. So while the explanation was played out daily before the people in the earthly temple, the spiritual significance is not to be lost on the believer.
 
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ralliann

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Levites did their duty according to the law, but they were not so much teachers of the law. They worked in the temple and with temple services. They had a copy of the which was before them, aka that which was written on parchment, and laid out the outline and details of procedures. Elders of the families instructed the family units, the tribe units, and the government as keepers of the gates. Kings dictated the laws of the land, hopefully according to the word of God. Prophets noted when the Kings went astray misleading the body of people to go astray. They also revealed the consequences. No levite walked around the community, pointing out sins, and dictating they come to the temple to repent. That was taught in the home, at the synagogue, and through the righteous kingdom leaders.
I disagree. Josephus tells us the priests were the head of government as Judges in the beginning, and remained for a very long time.
This IMO agrees with all scripture.

Dt 17:9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

Paul a pharasee, receiving Letters from the high priest gave him authority. IOW, a decree from the high priest
1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,
went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Ac 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Ac 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.


Ac 28:21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
 
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CherubRam

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There is no Israeli law of return for Gentile believers in Messiah. Believers in Yeshua do not become Israel. That is Replacement Theology - at no time do Gentiles become Jews.
A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.


Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.


A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.


The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.
 
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ralliann

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You know, if I am hired to do a job and it is a very specific job that is only for me to do. No upstart is allowed to take my place. The purpose of the Levites is to perform that which is symbolic of the salvation process in the heavenly temple services which Yeshua is performing as our High Priest in the heavenly temple. So while the explanation was played out daily before the people in the earthly temple, the spiritual significance is not to be lost on the believer.
The priesthood is an inheritance.
Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.

Nu 18:20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
Nu 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
De 10:9 Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.
De 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
De 18:2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
Jos 13:14 Only unto the tribe of Levi he gave none inheritance; the sacrifices of the LORD God of Israel made by fire are their inheritance, as he said unto them.
 
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CherubRam

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Who is a Jew or the nation Israel.
This is what God has spoken through His prophets.


Genesis 17:3

Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4. "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.


Genesis 35:11
And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body.


Exodus 12:37
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38. Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.


Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


Leviticus 24:22
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.


Numbers 15:15
The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD :


Joshua 8:33
All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.


Esther 8:17
In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

Psalm 2:4
The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6. "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill." 7. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.


Psalm 82:8
Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.


Psalm 111:6
He has shown his people the power of his works, giving them the lands of other nations.


Isaiah 9:3
You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder.


Isaiah 14:1
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.


Isaiah 26:15
You have enlarged the nation, O LORD; you have enlarged the nation. You have gained glory for yourself;
you have extended all the borders of the land.


Isaiah 44:5
One will say, 'I belong to the LORD '; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, ['The LORD's / Yahwah],' and will take the name Israel.


Isaiah 56:3
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."- 6. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7. these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
8. The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


Ezekiel 47
21. "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22. You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


Zechariah 2:10
"Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12. The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13. Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."
 
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CherubRam

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Matthew 12:21
In his name the nations will put their hope."



The Parable of the Tenants
Luke 20
9. He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13. "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.' 14. "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15. So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16. He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!" 17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone? 18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and he on whom it falls will be crushed."

19. The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.


Acts 3:25
And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'


Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,


Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15. because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.


Romans 4:18
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."


Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


Romans 9:24
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,...


Romans 10:19
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;...


1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.


Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.


Titus 3:7
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


Revelation 2:9
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


Isaiah 65:15
You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called [Christians / Messianics] first at Antioch.


A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.

Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.

A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.
 
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