SHADOW LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT FULFILLED IN THE NEW? COL 2

bugkiller · May 23, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
Similar to that which is offered here:

John 8:31 KJB - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 8:32 KJB - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Furthermore, they weren't really sabbath-keeping [oh they had the right day, the 7th day, but the wrong heart], as Jesus all through the NT had to correct their erroneous views of it, and rebuke their transgression of it through their vain man-made traditions, freeing it from vain restrictions and false ideologies and practices therein and to set it back in its proper and spiritual origins, by demonstration of its actual keeping.

Furthermore, see the entire thread on Hebrews 3-4 [for your participation is welcome there]:

Hebrews 3-4 [KJB], the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD JEHOVAH - "my rest" "remaineth" to My people.

you will say anything.

bugkiller

Dkh587 · May 23, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Some comments below...

Not at all. As posted earlier it is not the subject of dispute. The SHADOW laws are. It is the SHADOW laws as shown in the OP here that is the topic and CONTEXT of COL 2 which have their fulfillment in Jesus and God's plan of salvation. This is the topic of the OP here not wheather Leviticus 23 or Ezekiel 45 include God's 4th Commandment within the annual Jewish feativals which are Shadow laws in ORDINANCES from the Mosaic book of the Covenant.

No problem my friend these things happen, all is well

This is where you make a mistake or assmption I am not making. I was giving reference to the OLD Testament scriptures which show the topic of discussion of the NEW. In this case Colossians 2:16 which is in reference to the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT in this case v16 was in reference to the Annual festivals and sacrificial system for remission of sin from the laws in ORDINANCES from the BOOK of the COVENANT. The sabbath being referred to here are the shadow shabbaths that are not God's 4th Commandment

Well this is where we do indeed disagree and agree. It is true that God's 4th Commandment is a memorial of creation the first word in the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) is Remember v11 being a reference back to Genesis 2:1-3.

As far as God's 4th Commandment being a Shadow law? Well simply No!. Let's look at the scriptures and see why starting with the origin of the Sabbath at creation...

GENESIS 2:1-3
[1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and he RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made.
[3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, and SANCTIFIED IT <the 7th day>: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Some points to note from the scriptures...............

v1 God completed creation in 6 days and RESTED on the SEVENTH DAY
v2 God RESTED on the SEVENTH DAY
v3 God SET APART the SEVENTH DAY and made THE SEVENTH DAY a HOLY DAY
v2 The SEVENTH DAY is part of the FINISHED WORK of the CREATION WEEK

Once again Genesis 2:1-3 supports Exodus 20:8-11 that the Sabbath is referring to the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK not only a REST but the REST IS LINKED to the SEVENTH DAY which was part of the FINISHED WORK OF THE CREATION WEEK.

................

Questions:

1. When the SABBATH was made was it an UNFINISHED WORK OR A FINISHED WORK?

Answer. v2 FINISHED WORK. If it is it part of a FINISHED WORK then it cannot be a SHADOW OF ANYTHING because it is a FINISHED WORK

................

2. Was the Sabbath made BEFORE or AFTER SIN entered into the WORLD?

Answer. GENESIS 3 = THE SABBATH WAS MADE BEFORE SIN entered the WORLD. If it was made BEFORE SIN in a PERFECT CREATION in Harmony with GOD BEFORE SIN then how can God's Sabbath be a part of God's plan of Salvation from sin when it was part of a finished work in creation and there was no plan of salvation and no sin? It cannot because it is a FINISHED work therefore not a SHADOW

There is no longer Jews or Gentile believers in the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted in to God's Israel who God's WORD describes as those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW the WORD of God. (Romans 11:16-27). This is also where some get mixed up as to what makes up the OLD and NEW Covenant. Some teach that the Old Covenant only refered to God's 10 commandments but it also includes the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant and sacrificial ORDINANCES <Civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical; Col 2:14; δόγμα; dogma; dog'-mah; From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance>.

It is true that Jesus and all the Apostles kept the Sabbath according to God's 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) thanks for agreeing here. Some try to use Acts 15 as an argument to teach that Gentile believers are not required to have obedience to God's 10 Commandment. Those that do this ignore the CONTEXT of Acts 15 which is talking about the laws in ORDINANCES from the MOSIAC BOOK of the COVENANT (Shadow laws).

This is referenced in the CONTEXT and topic of discussion in ACTS 15:1-2 which says...
v1, And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brothers, and said, Except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved. v2, When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question.

The topic and CONTEXT of Acts 15 therefore was the question of do gentile believers need to follow the SHADOW laws from the laws in ORDINANCES from the MOSIAC BOOK of the COVENANT. The answer was a condtional no v 19-21. This chapter has nothing to do with God's 10 commandments which are the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is (Romans 3:20).

This is further referenced as we see through Acts that Paul as his manner was kept God's 4th Commandment with both the Jews and Gentiles.

ACTS 13:14-15; 42-44, [14], And when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. [15], And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, You men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

[42], And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. <Why wait till the next Sabbath?>
[43], Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
[44], And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

ACTS 16:13, And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a riverside, where prayer was accustomed to be made; and we sat down, and spoke unto the women who met there.

ACTS 17:1-2 [1], Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews: [2], And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

ACTS 18:4-5 [4], And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. [5], And when Silas and Timothy were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the word, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.

Thanks for sharing...

Just curious about your understanding. I agree with many things you post, but I’m wondering if you believe it is permissible for followers of Messiah to eat swine and other unclean animals?

The reason I ask is because I notice you draw a line between the 10 commandments & the rest of the Torah, and do so in a way that suggests followers of Messiah don’t have to do anything except the 10 commandments (this is just how it comes across to me)

Shalom

The7thColporteur · May 23, 2018

Dkh587 said:
Just curious about your understanding. I agree with many things you post, but I’m wondering if you believe it is permissible for followers of Messiah to eat swine and other unclean animals?

The reason I ask is because I notice you draw a line between the 10 commandments & the rest of the Torah, and do so in a way that suggests followers of Messiah don’t have to do anything except the 10 commandments (this is just how it comes across to me)

Shalom

Dietary law still applies. The very sanctuary teaches it: The Out of the Cities message and lifestyle & Country Living & Everlasting Gospel

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

tall73 said:
Before moving on to all the other points I am going to take some time to clarify this, because I think if I don't it won't make sense going forward and we are likely to talk past each other.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑
.Jesus fulfilled the shadow laws because they pointed to him as our great sacrifice therefore the shadows have been fulfilled.

Click to expand...

Yes, but they were not blotted out, removed, destroyed, etc.

The OT spelled out the sacrificial system. Jesus fulfilled all the aspects of that system, being the Sacrifice (and the High Priest, and the King, and author of better promises). Therefore there is no need of further sacrifice.

But the problem is that you are painting the sacrificial laws as against us--they were not. They were given by God for the people so that He could make atonement for them. They in themselves were unable to purify those who drew near, but they pointed to Christ the true sacrifice.

To say that Christ's method of forgiveness is to destroy the part of the law that pointed to Him by blotting it out makes no sense.

He did not blot out the laws regarding sacrifice. He fulfilled them.

He did blot out sin, nailing it to the cross, because He who knew no sin became sin for us. And on the cross He paid our debt.

Firstly I never said the shadow laws are destroyed. I said they are fulfilled in that which they pointed to and no longer required.

The Greek word used here for "Blotted out" ἐξαλείφω; exaleiphō ; ex-al-i'-fo; From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.

Are you saying that the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws in ordinances from the OLD COVENANT are not done away with in the NEW COVENANT? These were the Shadows of discussion and context of COL 2 starting with the examples of circumcision v11, then moving through to v14

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

The Greek as shown earlier for this scripture (noting context before and after are the laws in ordinances from the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant (v11, v16-17)

So the GREEK of the complete verse 14 reads...

Ἐξαλείψας τὸ καθ᾽ ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δόγμασιν, ὃ ἦν ὑπεναντίον ἡμῖν, καὶ αὐτὸ ἦρκεν ἐκ τοῦ μέσου, προσηλώσας αὐτὸ τῷ σταυρῷ

with strong #

v14 εξαλείψαςG1813 τοG3588 καθ'G2596 ημώνG1473 χειρόγραφονG5498 τοιςG3588 δόγμασινG1378 οG3739 ηνG1510.7.3 υπεναντίονG5227 ημίνG1473 καιG2532 αυτόG1473 ήρκενG142 εκG1537 τουG3588 μέσουG3319 προσηλώσαςG4338 αυτόG1473 τωG3588 σταυρώG4716

literal meanings applied..

blotting out (G1813; ἐξαλείφω; exaleiphō; ex-al-i'-fo; means to obliterate; erase; wipe away) the

handwriting (G5498; χειρόγραφον; cheirographon; khi-rog'-raf-on;
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (" chirograph"), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively): - handwriting.

of ordinances (G1378; δόγμα; dogma; dog'-mah; From the base of G1380; a law; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical: - decree, ordinance.

So then based on the above context and Greek meaning of blotting out of the handwriting of ordinances in V14. The meaning of v14 is the doing away with the hand written legal manuscript of civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws.

These are the laws referred to in verse 14 that have been erased and are nailed to the cross because they have been fulfilled in Christ.

The context of COL 2 (v11-17) is the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT starting with the shadow ordinance of circumcision then working through to the sin offereings, new moons, annual festivals and special annual sabbaths in ordinances.

The handwriting of ORDINANCES {Mosaic laws for meat and drink offerings and annual festivals that have their fulfilment in Jesus} have been blotted out because they have been fulfilled in the death of Christ (our true lamb of God and sacrifice for our sins; John 1:29).

They were the shadows. They were all prophetic in nature, teaching the plan of salvation which pointing to Jesus as the true lamb of God and our great high priest and His Work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. (Leviticus 1; 3-12; 14-17; 22-23; Number 6-8; 15; 28-29; Deut 12; 33; Ex 25:8; John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28)

The parallel scripture is found in Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

This links into the scripture study on ODINANCES in the OP so no need to repeat all those scriptures here (linked).

..................

I am not much for the commentaries but thought this interesting as it supports the scriptures from the bible study provided above and in the OP here...

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Blotting out the handwriting - The word rendered handwriting means something written by the hand, a manuscript; and here, probably, the writings of the Mosaic law, or the law appointing many ordinances or observances in religion. The allusion is probably to a written contract, in which we bind ourselves to do any work, or to make a payment, and which remains in force against us until the bond is cancelled. That might be done, either by blotting out the names, or by drawing lines through it, or, as appears to have been practiced in the East, by driving a nail through it.

The Jewish ceremonial law is here represented as such a contract, binding those under it to its observance, until it was nailed to the cross. The meaning here is, that the burdensome requirements of the Mosaic law are abolished, and that its necessity is superseded by the death of Christ. His death had the same effect, in reference to those ordinances, as if they had been blotted from the statute-book. This it did by fulfilling them, by introducing a more perfect system, and by rendering their observance no longer necessary, since all that they were designed to typify had been now accomplished in a better way; compare the notes at Ephesians 2:15. Of ordinances - Prescribing the numerous rites and ceremonies of the Jewish religion.

That was against us - That is, against our peace, happiness, comfort; or in other words, which was oppressive and burdensome; compare the notes at Acts 15:10. Those ordinances bound and lettered the soul, restrained the expansive spirit of true piety which seeks the salvation of all alike, and thus operated as a hindrance to the enlarged spirit of true religion. Thus, they really operated against the truly pious Jew, whose religion would lead him to seek the salvation of the world; and to the Gentile, since he was not in a situation to avail himself of them, and since they would be burdensome if he could. It is in this sense, probably, that the apostle uses the word "us," as referring to all, and as cramping and restraining the true nature of religion.

Which was contrary to us - Operated as a hindrance, or obstruction, in the matter of religion. The ordinances of the Mosaic law were necessary, in order to introduce the gospel; but they were always burdensome. They were to be confined to one people; and, if they were continued, they would operate to prevent the spread of the true religion around the world; compare 2 Corinthians 3:7, note, 9, note. Hence, the exulting language of the apostle in view of the fact that they were now taken away, and that the benefits of religion might be diffused all over the world. The gospel contains nothing which is "against," or "contrary to," the true interest and happiness of any nation or any class of people.

And took it out of the way - Greek, "Out of the midst;" that is, he wholly removed it. He has removed the obstruction, so that it no longer prevents union and harmony between the Jews and the Gentiles.

Nailing it to his cross - As if he had nailed it to his cross, so that it would be entirely removed out of our way. The death of Jesus had the same effect, in regard to the rites and institutions of the Mosaic religion, as if they had been affixed to his cross. It is said that there is an allusion here to the ancient method by which a bond or obligation was cancelled, by driving a nail through it, and affixing it to a post. This was practiced, says Grotius, in Asia. In a somewhat similar manner, in our banks now, a sharp instrument like the blade of a knife is driven through a check, making a hole through it, and furnishing to the teller of the bank a sign or evidence that it has been paid. If this be the meaning, then the expression here denotes that the obligation of the Jewish institutions ceased on the death of Jesus, as if he had taken them and nailed them to his own cross, in the manner in which a bond was cancelled.

.................

COL 2 is about the SHADOW laws from the Mosaic BOOK of the COVENANT fulfilled in Christ and pointing to the NEW. Old things are done away behold all things are new...

Hope this helps..

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
Please post a scripture as I have asked repeatedly for you to do, that we all can discuss.

All you have done is oust a link to your cut and paste law of Moses scriptures.

I have asked you for a scripture from Jesus or the Apostles that commands the Church to gather on the Sabbath.

That is a fair request that you keep dodging.

Please admit there is no such scripture and then I won’t ask you anymore.

JLB

ALL PAST DISCUSSIONS AND ALL QUESTIONS WHICH SCRIPTURE ANSWERED HERE CLICK ME.

Hope that helps..

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

Dkh587 said:
Just curious about your understanding. I agree with many things you post, but I’m wondering if you believe it is permissible for followers of Messiah to eat swine and other unclean animals?

The reason I ask is because I notice you draw a line between the 10 commandments & the rest of the Torah, and do so in a way that suggests followers of Messiah don’t have to do anything except the 10 commandments (this is just how it comes across to me)

Shalom

Hi Dkh587,

Welcome to the thread here. Nice to see you again. I am just mainly trying to stay on the topic of the OP here. I did not want to get into the dietry laws that much here as I think it deserves its own thread and may cause too much of a distraction fom the OP.

Short answer though. Yes I believe God's dietry laws apply to us today. Maybe another thread would be good to discuss this.

There are a lot of scriptures to share on this topic and many opponants against it.

Thats all I wish to say about it here in this OP. There are also many other laws in the Torah that are still God's Word today as well. These have not been the focus here as the focus of the discussion is to show God's WORD teaches a difference between the Shadow laws and God's Eternal laws.

Many do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is and therefore do not correctly understand what the NEW COVENANT teaches.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

tall73 · May 25, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Dkh587,

Welcome to the thread here. Nice to see you again. I am just mainly trying to stay on the topic of the OP here. I did not want to get into the dietry laws that much here as I think it deserves its own thread and may cause too much of a distraction fom the OP.

Short answer though. Yes I believe God's dietry laws apply to us today. Maybe another thread would be good to discuss this.

There are a lot of scriptures to share on this topic and many opponants against it.

Thats all I wish to say about it here in this OP. There are also many other laws in the Torah that are still God's Word today as well. These have not been the focus here as the focus of the discussion is to show God's WORD teaches a difference between the Shadow laws and God's Eternal laws.

Many do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is and therefore do not correctly understand what the NEW COVENANT teaches.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

That would be a good thread for this forum if you want to start one.

tall73 · May 25, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Are you saying that the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws in ordinances from the OLD COVENANT are not done away with in the NEW COVENANT? These were the Shadows of discussion and context of COL 2 starting with the examples of circumcision v11, then moving through to v14

Well let's start there.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Paul does not argue that the law that requires circumcision was destroyed. He argues that they are complete in Christ and they are truly circumcised, with the circumcision of Christ through what He did.

It is not destroying the law, it is fulfilling it.

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

tall73 said:
Well let's start there.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Paul does not argue that the law that requires circumcision was destroyed. He argues that they are complete in Christ and they are truly circumcised, with the circumcision of Christ through what He did.

It is not destroying the law, it is fulfilling it.

Hello tall, nice to see you again,

Indeed the focus and context of v10-11 is on the ORDINANCE of circumcision. The Shadows of the past however already being known by the Jews of the time but repeated by Paul and others in the NEW Testament.

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

FORTOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES….

DEUTERONOMY 30 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

DEUTERONOMY 10 [16] CIRCUMCISE therefore THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.
1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…
HEBREWS 8 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

...............

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT.

...............

It is the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT in ORDINANCES that are replaced by the NEW COVENANT. The NEW Covenant replaced the OLD and the OLD is not more.

v14, blotting out (G1813; ἐξαλείφω; exaleiphō; ex-al-i'-fo; means to obliterate; erase; wipe away)

links to..

HEBREWS 8:13..

King James Bible
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Christian Standard Bible
By saying a new covenant, he has declared that the first is obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old is about to pass away.

Contemporary English Version
When the Lord talks about a new agreement, he means that the first one is out of date. And anything that is old and useless will soon disappear.

Good News Translation
By speaking of a new covenant, God has made the first one old; and anything that becomes old and worn out will soon disappear.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.

International Standard Version
In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

NET Bible
When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

New Heart English Bible
In that he says, "new," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In that he said, “New”, he has made the first old, and that which is outdated and old is near destruction.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God made this new promise and showed that the first promise was outdated. What is outdated and aging will soon disappear.

New American Standard 1977
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Jubilee Bible 2000
In that he says, New, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

King James 2000 Bible
In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away.

American King James Version
In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

American Standard Version
In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.

Darby Bible Translation
In that he says New, he has made the first old; but that which grows old and aged [is] near disappearing.

English Revised Version
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Young's Literal Translation
in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.

The NEW replaced the OLD because the OLD pointed to the NEW. Now that the NEW has come the OLD passes away and is no more. COL 2 is talking about no more ORDINACES for remission of sin and no more Shadow laws from the MOSACI BOOK of the Covenant. The OLD is obsolete and vanishes away because they are fulfilled in Christ to which they pointed to.

Thanks for sharing tall.

Hope this helps..

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

tall73 said:
That would be a good thread for this forum if you want to start one.

Yes I think so. At the moment though I have a lot more to add to this one and keeping up with some others has been a little time consuming. Maybe we can look at it a little later.

tall73 · May 25, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello tall, nice to see you again,

Indeed the focus and context of v10-11 is on the ORDINANCE of circumcision. The Shadows of the past however already being known by the Jews of the time but repeated by Paul and others in the NEW Testament.

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

FORTOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES….

DEUTERONOMY 30 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

DEUTERONOMY 10 [16] CIRCUMCISE therefore THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.
1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…
HEBREWS 8 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

...............

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT.

...............

It is the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT in ORDINANCES that are replaced by the NEW COVENANT. The NEW Covenant replaced the OLD and the OLD is not more.

v14, blotting out (G1813; ἐξαλείφω; exaleiphō; ex-al-i'-fo; means to obliterate; erase; wipe away)

King James Bible
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Christian Standard Bible
By saying a new covenant, he has declared that the first is obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old is about to pass away.

Contemporary English Version
When the Lord talks about a new agreement, he means that the first one is out of date. And anything that is old and useless will soon disappear.

Good News Translation
By speaking of a new covenant, God has made the first one old; and anything that becomes old and worn out will soon disappear.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.

International Standard Version
In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

NET Bible
When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

New Heart English Bible
In that he says, "new," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In that he said, “New”, he has made the first old, and that which is outdated and old is near destruction.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God made this new promise and showed that the first promise was outdated. What is outdated and aging will soon disappear.

New American Standard 1977
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Jubilee Bible 2000
In that he says, New, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

King James 2000 Bible
In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away.

American King James Version
In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

American Standard Version
In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.

Darby Bible Translation
In that he says New, he has made the first old; but that which grows old and aged [is] near disappearing.

English Revised Version
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Young's Literal Translation
in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.

The NEW replaced the OLD because the OLD pointed to the NEW. Now that the NEW has come there OLD passes away and is no more. COL 2 is talking about no more ORDINACES for remission of sin and no more Shadow laws from the MOSACI BOOK of the Covenant. The OLD is obsolete and vanishes away because they are fulfilled in Christ to which they pointed to.

Thanks for sharing tall.

Hope this helps..

Yes, the reason that it was about to vanish is that the temple was about to be destroyed. He talked about the current priest standing daily to offer.... But the true sacrifice had already been made, which the type pointed to. And even though we see in Acts 21 that even the Christians continued to offer sacrifices, it was in awareness that they pointed to Christ the true sacrifice.Meanwhile the real sanctuary is in heaven where Christ was ministering.

However, note that the covenant related to the law, but it was not itself the law. The law didn't vanish. The old covenant, or agreement vanished. The old agreement had promises. In Exodus 19 the people promised to do all that the Lord commanded, and He promised to make them His special possession, a nation of priests, etc. Then He related His commands.

Hebrews 8 points out that the old covenant was passing away, and in need of a new (also as you pointed out referenced in the OT), because it was based on faulty promises. The people did not keep the covenant.

The new covenant was based on better promises. Now the law is written on the heart.

Now that is not to say there were no changes. Hebrews references a change of priesthood. Jesus is the true High Priest as well as the true Sacrifice.

Now in this case the gentiles, primarily the audience of Colossians, did not need to be circumcised anyway. But he notes that true circumcision is of the heart, and Christ already qualified them, meeting the requirements.

tall73 · May 25, 2018

By the way, I want to clarify, I am not saying that we still need to do the sanctuary sacrificial rites. Clearly they are fulfilled.

I just don't think the blotting out passage is speaking of that.

Now the reference to food or drink or a feast or a new moon or a sabbath IS talking about that fulfillment.

So I agree to a large degree with what you mention below:

LoveGodsWord said:
(noting context before and after are the laws in ordinances from the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant (v11, v16-17)

Circumcision was part of the covenant (though it originated with Abraham) and so were the appointed times, and the offerings.

However, there is more to the immediate context than just that. So I would like to walk through it:

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

His concern is that they grow in the faith and walk in Him.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Now here he begins to reference a string of things that could distract them from being built up in Christ. Some of these relate to fixation on the sacrificial types. But some of these relate to other dangers.

Here he warns against philosophy. This was a strong influence in the gentile culture they were surrounded by. He indicates they don't need that, Christ is sufficient for them.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Philosophy is man's groping after wisdom through his own means, and tradition etc. But they have access to the source of all wisdom, and to one who has all power, being head over everything. They are complete, they don't need to look for answers in the wrong places, because Christ is already the answer.

Now he turns to the Judaizers claims. They wanted the gentiles to be circumcised and keep the whole law. This again is a solution in search of a problem. They already were complete in Christ, and should not be led astray in putting their confidence in fleshly circumcision.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:''

Just as they should not be led astray by philosophers and man's wisdom, so they should not be caught up in trying to earn salvation through ceremonies.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We spiritually participate in the death and resurrection to new life in Him through baptism, and while we were dead in sins, He made us alive, and forgave us all our sins.

So while it is talking about the dangers of Judaizing here and putting confidence in the type, rather than the fulfillment, and is part of a list of other dangers, the immediate context leading up to this verse is the forgiveness of our sins. It is part of how He is sufficient, and we are complete in Him, having need of nothing else other than to walk with Him and be built up.

Now we can look at the Greek as you indicated next. But it starts in the middle of the sentence, which is important to note. It is finishing the thought of "He forgave us all our sins".

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

tall73 said:
However, note that the covenant related to the law, but it was not itself the law. The law didn't vanish.

Hello my friend nice to see you. Yes I agree with most of your post and well written. I will only comment on the small section above. The Covenant is an agreement or contract as you have correctly stated. However the first contract was in relation to obedience to God's LAW which included both 1. The tables of the COVENANT * Ten Commandments and 2. The MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant (laws in ORDINANCES; civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical) both sets of laws as you know had a different purpose under the OLD COVENANT.

1. GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments) gave a KNOWLEDGE of good and evil (sin and righteousness) * Romans 3:20 and Psalms 119:172.

2. MOSAIC LAWS; were given for remission of sin should someone break God's LAW.

Both of these two sets of laws collectively made up the OLD COVENANT and God's people who obeyed them were saved by FAITH just as we are today. The only difference here is that they looked forward to the comming Messiah while we look back to the fulfillment of the Messiah and the arrival of the NEW Covenant of God's LAW written on the heart through FAITH that works by LOVE (Hebrews 11; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; Deuteronomy 10:16).

What a wonderful promise being left to those who believe and Follow the Word of God. All of us are lost without Jesus, but we have a Saviour and true physician to those who know they are sick by looking in the mirror.

Praise to God we are blessed through him who loved us and washed us in his own blood that we should be called the sons of God.

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

tall73 said:
By the way, I want to clarify, I am not saying that we still need to do the sanctuary sacrificial rites. Clearly they are fulfilled. I just don't think the blotting out passage is speaking of that.

Yea thanks for this Tall, it occoured to me to ask you this. So thanks for clarifying this.
For me I believe the blotting out passage is talking about this as it agrees with the chapter context and also further of the shadows of the Old Covenant pointing to the NEW Covenant and other passages of scripture stating the OLD Covenant was to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13)

That is not to say everything in the OLD COVENANT is no more only that some things where SHADOWS and no longer and a NEW Covenant made on better promises was to take it's place.

HEBREWS 8:6-7 [6], But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7], For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

I do no have any problems with what you have written in the rest of the post you wrote.

I will need to sign off for now as I need to get ready to go out.

Happy Sabbath my friend (my time) back latter :wave:

tall73 · May 25, 2018

Yes, I need to run at the moment but will take up your latest post, and the Greek after that.

Then I also think it would be helpful to look at the context after 16, as he goes on to relate other dangers that could lead them from being built up into Christ.

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

tall73 said:
Yes, I need to run at the moment but will take up your latest post, and the Greek after that.

Then I also think it would be helpful to look at the context after 16, as he goes on to relate other dangers that could lead them from being built up into Christ.

No problem chat more latter when there is some time.

BTW, so you know, I am not arguing that the scripture does not also refer to Jesus blotting out our sins and paying the price for them. Only sharing that there is more to COL 2 then this and it includes the fulfillment of the Shadows the point to Christ and God's plan of salvation that lead the reader from the OLD COVENANT into the NEW.

Hope this clarifies where I am at whch may save you some time.

LoveGodsWord · May 25, 2018

Ok time to continue on with the OP and the Shadow laws.

I was not going to add this section but was going to continue on in from the previous section and look at some important feast day that the Sanctuary was linked into such as the great day of Atonement. We will look at this shortly. This section is added to the thread as it is on topic in COL 2:16 showing why the NEW MOON feasts are not kept today.

COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16], Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Q. Do we need to keep the NEW MOON festivals?

Before we answer this question let's look at the reasons for the NEW MOON in the scriptures in the OLD Testament.

NEW MOONS

This starts in Genesis 1:14-19 when God made the sun and the moon on the 4th day of the week.

GENESIS 1:14-16 [14], [14], And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [15], And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light on the earth: and it was so. [16], And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

So the sun and the moon were made to be signs for seasons and for days and years v14.

For the Jewish calender, the months in the calendar was established as lunar months. So the beginning of the month started on the new moon. The New Moon is a precise astronomical event and can occur on different days because of the rotation of the earth throughout the year (summer, winter autumn spring).

This was especially important when God gave commandment to observe the feasts and festivals in their given times it was vital to keep accurate count of when the new month began to celebrate the annual festivals correctly.

Leviticus 23:4 [4], These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which you shall proclaim in their seasons.

God was very clear that the festivals were to be celebrated not because they are for man but because they are His appointed times and seasons that they needed to be celebrated in.

In Numbers 28:11, the New Moon offering is commanded for the first time: “On the first of every month, present to the Lord a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect.” Each of the animal sacrifices was to be accompanied by a grain offering and a drink offering (Numbers 28:12–14; 1 Chronicles 23:30-31).

In addition to burnt offerings, a goat was to be sacrificed to the Lord as a sin offering (Numbers 28:15). The New Moon festival marked the consecration to God of each new month in the year. New Moon festivals were marked by sacrifices, the blowing of trumpets over the sacrifices (Numbers 10:10; Psalms 81:3), the suspension of all labor and trade (Nehemiah 10:31), and social or family feasts (1 Samuel 20:5).

1 Chronicles 31:3, He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD.

These are the laws in ORDINANCES for remission of sin from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT as discussed in the linked thread above that were SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus.

At the coming of Jesus however, these were to come to an end as they were Shadows pointing to Jesus as our true sacrifice (John 1:29) and God's plan of Salvation. Hosea 2:11, I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

.................

A. In short, at the moment we do not continue now with the festivals and new moon sacrifices that were shadows that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the OLD COVENANT. We keep the NEW MOON feast by faith in Christ as our sacrifice for sin. This is the everlasting Covenant. Further scripture support for the shadow laws in ORDINANCES from SHADOWS OF COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 thread linked

.................

Will the NEW MOON festivals continue in the future?

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your descendants and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the LORD.

The context of these scriptures in Isaiah is the after the 2nd coming (v6-19).

In the NEW EARTH we are told that we are to worship and meet with God on the NEW MOONS and the SABBATHS.

.................

Why will we meet with God in the NEW MOONS in the NEW earth?

There is a hint for this reason in the book of Revelations...

REVELATION 22:1-2 [1], And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2], In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bore twelve manner of fruit, and yielded its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The tree of life yeilds its fruit every month. The NEW MOON is to show the beginning of each month according to Genesis it is a sign for months, days and seasons. God's people in the NEW earth will meet with Jesus from one NEW MOON to another to partake of the fruit of the tree of life (Isaiah 66:22-23; Revelation 22:1-2).

...................

REVELATION 22:1-2 [1], And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2], In the middle of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bore twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

links to..

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, said the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD.

who will gather before him?

REVELATION 22:14 [14], Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You can see here that the tree of life yeilds its fruit once a month v2. Isaiah 66:22-24 says that this is when God's people will meet with God in the NEW EARTH and in Rvelations 22:14 God's people are descibed as those who keep God's Commandments. This includes the 4th Commandment which is one of the 10 that is continued to be kept in the NEW EARTH along with the NEW MOON (Isaiah 66:22-24)

.................

Latter we will examine more in relation to the Santuary service and the great day of Atonement.

Blessings to all his sheep

W2L · May 25, 2018

Those are some long posts.

The7thColporteur · May 25, 2018

W2L said:
Those are some long posts.

The Ten Words/Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13, 10:4 KJB] are pretty short, and all comprehensive [Psalms 119:96 KJB], covering the "whole" [Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJB] duty of Adam and all in him, even as they are also simply called the "word" [Deuteronomy 4:2; Psalms 103:20, 119:172; Isaiah 1:10, 2:3, 5:24, 8:20; Micah 4:2; Galatians 5:14 KJB] of God, yet how many turn away from so simple and brief testimony from God?

According to scripture, were the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB] only for the Hebrews?

W2L · May 25, 2018

The7thColporteur said:
The Ten Words/Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13, 10:4 KJB] are pretty short, and all comprehensive [Psalms 119:96 KJB], covering the "whole" [Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJB] duty of Adam and all in him, even as they are also simply called the "word" [Deuteronomy 4:2; Psalms 103:20, 119:172; Isaiah 1:10, 2:3, 5:24, 8:20; Micah 4:2; Galatians 5:14 KJB] of God, yet how many turn away from so simple and brief testimony from God?

According to scripture, were the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB] only for the Hebrews?

The 10 CS are pretty basic, i agree. The sermon on the mount (law of Christ) is more advanced.

SHADOW LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT FULFILLED IN THE NEW? COL 2

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