The Rapture

gomerian

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Any scriptures for that or is it in your imagination?

I cannot give you the means of making the connections which my mind makes... which you seem to want to call my immagination.

But, as I said, the fact is that the against-Christ will set up a sacrificial system, as though the sacrifice of the Son wasn't good enough; and then, because the followers of the abomination will not keep the Law, the abomination will stop the sacrificial means of purification. Not a stretch of the imagination, given the hands full of bribes scenario, along with the drunkards of Ephriam... who will probably be the chief priests of such a system.

The Connections, From Point A to Point B:

When (and for how long) have the Israelites kept the Law? To give you references for that, I would have to quote most of the Old Testament. Since Jesus has paid the price for every sin ever done under the Law, the creation of a temple is saying Jesus died for nothing. Which is abominable, in and of itself. But when Abaddon claims to be their messiah who was and is not and yet is/will come (similar to the words used of Jesus, for obvious reasons), and officiates at the sacrifices (of God only knows what creepy creatures), sin is piled upon sin right in the face of the throne of Heaven. Isaiah 28 is the OT text of the end times. Not only is Abaddon come up from the pit with his demon-spawn, but hell follows with him. And those who do not wear his brand from the eastern land of the mark (Nod), will starve. I seem to remember that Solomon officiated at the temple; and in that temple, he set up the gods of his strange wives, and doubtless poured out libations for them. Be careful what you wish for.

oh... and the bribes are all over the OT, as well, including the book of Daniel. And since we know that the rulers of mankind, the 10 kings will be merchant kings... the fall of Babylon is done by them and is their downfall. By their international trade, they are rich, have become rich, and do not know that
"thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."
 
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Douggg

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Then you object to the fact that Jesus is the New Covenant Messiah.
What I object to is your use of a phrase that is not in the bible.

Jesus is the messiah. He is also the savior from our sins. The messiah means the promised great King of Israel. It doesn't mean savior from our sins.

If you wrote the New Covenant Savior, because the principle of the New Covenant is salvation from our sins, then that would be more appropriate. In Daniel 9, it says messiah, not Savior.
 
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jgr

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I'm saying that Peter wrote to the Israelites of the diaspora... which is what he said. Reading someone else's mail, and attempting to carry out what the author said to the addressee is not a wise move.

IMHO, the function of the church of Jesus is to be the stammering lips of another tongue, in Isaiah 28:1-21... unless Jesus really DID speak in Greek. In which case, our job is to be salt and light to a dying world.
Israel included Gentiles from the beginning (Genesis 17:12), so the Israelites of the diaspora included Gentiles who were originally Judaic adherents but ultimately converted to Christianity. The diaspora was multiethnic.
 
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gomerian

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And the Revelation describes the seven churches. So what? Yes, the church of the Old Testament (faithful Jews) and the church of the New Testament (faithful pagans) are connected in heaven (that is, in the Spirit), into one Church. And on earth (that is, materially) there are 2 churches: Jews and non-Jews. Jews observe the Law, and non-Jews are not required to observe, according to the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem.

These are "two witnesses," that is, two different churches on earth.

Smyrna and Philadelphia are not necessarily Hebrew and non-Hebrew... but they sure could be, couldn't they. Jesus does tell us that the two witnesses are the two candlesticks which He told us are churches. For all we know, Smyrna is Judah and Philadelphia is Israel. Which would mean that the Gentiles who are believers will have died of old age before the two witnesses get started. Which could also mean that the 144k are the two witnesses. Either way, they are the only ones about which Jesus has nothing bad to say and they are opposed to the synagogue of satan... which could easily stand for the temple in Jerusalem. Which means that Smyrna could have been the saints while the Herod's temple stood, and Philadelphia the saints when Abaddon's temple stands.
 
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gomerian

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Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

.

Ja,2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had
offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
 
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gomerian

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Are you rejecting certain books of the bible that don't suit you, as does gomerian?

There was a lady who had a pastor, who every time she mentioned what she was reading in her bible, said "Oh you can't believe that." So she said "I'll tear that out then." One day he said "What are you reading?" She replied "Revelation. That is all I've got left" "Oh you cant believe that," he said, "hasn't happened yet" The lady said "And the way you are going, it never will."

Jo,10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd."

Strong's 4166, poimen; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

Jo,10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know My [sheep], and am known of Mine. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep."

Zechariah 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, "Take unto thee yet the instruments of a worthless shepherd. 16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces."

The Worthless Shepherd/Pastor is the False Prophet.
 
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gomerian

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Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
.

Mat,5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven
 
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gomerian

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Roman Catholic teaching and Jesus said of that church, "Come out of her my people."

Same People and Place and Time:

Mat,24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev,18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

COME OUT OF Babylon:

Rev, 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mat,23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias ... 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee

The people Jesus is speaking to in the above 2 sets are the Pharisees which ruled Jerusalem; and since they are given the blame for killing Abel, their king must always have been Satan.
 
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David Kent

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Mikael is the prince of Israel, not the prince of a whole bunch of other nations. And they haven't fled yet. "Come out of her, My people" won't be said until right before the plagues of the wrath are poured out, full strength (rather than the thirds in the trumpets). Babylon hasn't fallen yet, and it's upon Babylon/Jerusalem (which will have become the capital of the world), that the vials will be emptied out.
That is the same fleeing that was commanded in the Olivet prophecy, Christian Jews. They were also Daniel's people. This happened when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, the Roman armies, in AD 66.
  • Luke 201:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
  • 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
 
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David Kent

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Mat,24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Not the same. Mat,24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

These prophecies were the same as in my previous post and were fulfilled in AD 66
 
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gomerian

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That is the same fleeing that was commanded in the Olivet prophecy, Christian Jews. They were also Daniel's people. This happened when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, the Roman armies, in AD 66.
  • Luke 201:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
  • 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

So then, for you, Revelation is finished. I talked to a man a decade or so ago who thought the same thing. He went off looking for proof to back up his theory and was never heard from again.
 
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gomerian

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These prophecies were the same as in my previous post and were fulfilled in AD 66

Mat,23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees... 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias

Rev,16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and
fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
 
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Douggg

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J,17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
He was not a man then, before the world began. No-one can perceive God, unless God comes forth in a form that creation can perceive him - I am talking about the angels in heaven perceiving Him before there was this world, which they rejoiced when God created the world.

God coming forth from Himself in a perceptible form is the Word. The Word did not become (added to His being God) Jesus the son of man until he entered the world through Mary.

Jesus in in 17:5 was speaking as God, not as a man.
 
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jgr

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Tell that to the Jews, and see what they have to say. I almost wish I could be there to hear it.

There's not a Jew alive who understands the meaning of "proselyte" (and every knowledgeable Jew does) who would disagree. You wouldn't want to hear it.
 
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ProtectionET

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Smyrna and Philadelphia are not necessarily Hebrew and non-Hebrew... but they sure could be, couldn't they. Jesus does tell us that the two witnesses are the two candlesticks which He told us are churches. For all we know, Smyrna is Judah and Philadelphia is Israel. Which would mean that the Gentiles who are believers will have died of old age before the two witnesses get started. Which could also mean that the 144k are the two witnesses. Either way, they are the only ones about which Jesus has nothing bad to say and they are opposed to the synagogue of satan... which could easily stand for the temple in Jerusalem. Which means that Smyrna could have been the saints while the Herod's temple stood, and Philadelphia the saints when Abaddon's temple stands.

I do not view each of the churches of Revelation as an option, either you can be in one or in another. The Smyrna church is a church that is to build the Third Temple in accordance with the prophecy of Ezekiel. I think this is the main element of the fractal into which this fragment of Revelation is projected.

There are signs:
1) "the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews" - (Messianic Temple should be built on the territory of Israel, modern Judaism will be negative about such construction)
2) Ten days of sorrow - the messengers of all the churches ("... until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in ...") will enter the Eastern Gate for 10 days, from 1 to 10 Tishrei, from Rosh Hashanah to Yom Kippur. The sanctification of the altar of this Temple takes place within 10 days, according to Ezekiel. These are the "Church gives birth," the Church must give birth to the Infant: the unity of the saints visible by all peoples.
3) death - the activity of this church is completed at the time of closing the Eastern Gate.

And the Philadelphia church is the very messengers of the churches that must enter the Eastern Gate:

... behold, I have set before thee an open door ...

Scripture forbids worshiping anyone other than God, but the Jews will worship the Philadelphian church! Those people who are honored to enter the Eastern Gate until their closing, are representatives of Jesus Christ, they include all the 144,000 first-born churches that ever existed on earth.

Therefore, they are all equal to God. The Name of Jesus Christ in the Second Coming: Israel. After the assimilation of these messengers of Jesus Christ with the Jews in Israel, two sticks in Ezekiel's hand become one stick, and Israel becomes a Messiah state.

You can get acquainted with this version of the interpretation of the churches of Revelation here.

I do not exclude other interpretations: the prophetic word can have multiple incarnations, like the fractals of Madelbrot.
 
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David Kent

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Mat,23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees... 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias

Good post .
  • 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
But that is not all of it,
  • 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
  • 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
  • 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


 
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BABerean2

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Mat,5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven

We are under a higher covenant, which is the Law of Christ.
Not for our salvation, but for our conduct.

Christ is our Lawgiver, instead of Moses.



Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;


What did God say at the transfiguration, when Christ appeared with Moses and Elijah, who are representatives of the Mosaic Law and the prophets?

Mat 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Mat 17:4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.



1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.



Read Hebrews 12:18-24.
We are not come to the mountain that burns with fire, (Mount Sinai) but instead to Mount Sion and the heavenly Jerusalem of the New Covenant.


.
 
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keras

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Tell that to the Jews, and see what they have to say. I almost wish I could be there to hear it.
Those who call themselves Jewish today, are a multi ethnic people and have no proof of their descent from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Judah.

The Jews are of many racial origins:
1. THE ASHKENAZIM JEWS

Some claim a link between Edom and the Khazars, but apart from that there is more than one identity calling themselves “Jews”; none of these have claim to the name ‘Israel’.. Regarding the Ashkenazim Jews who speak Yiddish, most dictionaries and encyclopedia define Ashkenazim in words like after ‘Ashkenaz’, the second son of Gomer. This confirms Scripture concerning the sons of Noah, [Shem, Japheth and Ham], and their offspring:

2. THE KHAZAR JEWS
The Khazars claimed descent from Japheth, and from their adoption of Judaism, they became known as Jews. But they did not descend from Shem, and therefore they are not Semitic in origin. To relate the term “anti-Semitism” to Jews of this origin is nonsense and part of the great deception! Eastern European Jews of this origin have no Israelite connection. Anti-Semitism could not apply to them! These are the majority in the Israeli state.

3. THE SEPHARDIM JEWS
The American People’s Encyclopaedia, 1925, indicates that these people descended from Edomites who were cast out of Palestine by Prince Titus in AD 70. From thence they spread to North Africa and to Spain converting Berber Tribes and others to Judaism. There were Cardinals and Popes who were Sephardim Jews. They have no simple blood line, being Edomites diluted with Syrian, Canaanite, Phoenician and North African blood.

4. THE SEPHARDIM / ASHKENAZIM JEWISH MIXTURE
It is impossible to determine the degree of intermarriage between these two groups of non- Israelites, but there is evidence that this has been common.

5. THE ETHIOPIAN DESCENDANTS OF HAM [The Falashas]
These are known as “Jews” because of acceptance of Judaism. The Encyclopaedia Judaica states:
The joke here is that Ham, as a son of Noah, was not a black man. It is amazing that these people, who are supposed to be the educated and erudite, could make such a stupid statement.

6. BABYLONIAN and PROSELYTE JEWS
In the days of Mordecai and Esther - many who obviously were not of Judah took up Judaism.
These are people from almost every race on earth. They became known as Jews because of religious spirit and belief in Judaism.

8. THE SHEMITE DESCENDANTS OF ESAU
These people also known as Edomites and some other names in Scripture. Historically, and Biblically, most of these were made proselytes to Judaism and became known as “Jews”.

Anyone who wants to identify the Jews as “Israel” is not speaking about the true Israel of God, as defined in the Bible. If we have another Israel, we have another gospel. But the same people will insist that Jews of much racial mixture are a single race when they are not. They want it both ways.

The term Ioudaios [Judean] is wrongly accepted as the “racial” term Ioudas [Jew] when reading the New Testament and is the root of the misunderstanding. The use of the territorial term, Judean, is not a measure of race, although some Israelites were amongst the proselytes to Judaism in Judea.
The word, “Jews”, cannot always be taken in the way that is commonly accepted. Modern international Jewry is primarily of Edomic or Japheth/Ashkenazim or Sephardim origin, and the Jewish Encyclopaedia states that Edom is modern Jewry. Edomites are not Israelites; it was Esau who sold his birthright. The descendants of Japheth cannot be ethnic Israelites. Neither are “Jews” of other races Israelites by race.

Modern Jewry relates to Edom, Zionism, World Government and the Israeli state, but not to Biblical Israel. At the end of the age it will be the Edomite-Jewish association with their Babylonic enmity that will be burned by fire. Obadiah 1:16-18; Rev 18:6-8

But there is a final twist declared in Encyclopedia Judaica 1971, 10, column 23:
“JEWS BEGAN IN THE 19TH CENTURY TO CALL THEMSELVES HEBREWS AND ISRAELITES IN 1860.
This coincides with the cry, “anti-Semitism”.. If Zionists began so late in history to pretend that they were Israelites or Hebrews, this confirms the hoax that claims “The Jews” are the Israel of God. Ref: A.E.Kennedy
Ja,2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had
offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Your quote, [please put in the full reference, so we can click on it to read it, thanks] then we could easily see that the point James is making is that by Abrahams actions, his faith was perfected. James 2:21-22
 
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David Kent

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I do not view each of the churches of Revelation as an option, either you can be in one or in another. The Smyrna church is a church that is to build the Third Temple in accordance with the prophecy of Ezekiel. I think this is the main element of the fractal into which this fragment of Revelation is projected.

The churches in Revelation were the churches in existence at the time The revelation was given. And while some believe that the churches are prophetic of different periods of time, and that we are in the last period. I have some sympathy with that view.
But there will not be a third Temple, actually Herod's was the third. The temple in Ezekiel refers to the church which is the temple at present.
 
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