Eastern VS Western Thinking

yeshuaslavejeff

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So we have only two feasible options here. Jesus is either teaching something new, or He is using an image of something both He and the audience understands.

I'd opt for the latter. Therefore, the notion the Hebrew/Jewish people had no concept or belief in an intermediary state is false.
Jesus was using the (Hebrew) religious leaders false beliefs to expose them, against them.
Nothing to do with greek way of thinking,
and nothing to do at all with any intermediary state (except the false beliefs Jesus was exposing).
 
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redleghunter

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The concept of ghosty afterlife and of physical ressurection are incompatible. We might as well throw a bit of reincarnation into the mix as accept dualism where it clearly doesn't belong.
The converstion that Jesus described may well be a real one that takes place in a displaced time frame, it says nothing about disembodied people.
This is what's called self perpetuating rhetoric which no one actually defends or presents today.

I'll explain. The notion that you immediately link pagan beliefs with those who clearly see an immaterial nature in Scriptures is an attempt to poison the well.

I already gave proofs to refute this notion in my last post, but wanted to point out your entry argument is flawed as you assume whoever responds to you has been influenced by pagan beliefs.

Notice I avoided the similar tactic used by some to immediately call into question your modified soul sleep or temporary self annihilation as derived from SDA and Jehovah's Witness dogma.
 
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redleghunter

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Jesus was using the (Hebrew) religious leaders false beliefs to expose them, against them.
Nothing to do with greek way of thinking,
and nothing to do at all with any intermediary state (except the false beliefs Jesus was exposing).
There is absolutely nothing in the text nor context of the dialogue to suggest this.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich man came after Jesus excoriating the Pharisees for exalting themselves above others and lovers of money. He then speaks of the Law and the Prophets then the Kingdom of God. Then a brief declaration on the proper understanding of divorce, then the parable or story which shows what happens to those who exalt themselves over others and worship money (the Rich man) compared to a poor and sick man gaining his reward.

We know this as Moses and the Prophets not being heard is the concluding concept. Jesus also introduces His teaching of the Resurrection (which the Pharisees believed in) in the last verse.

Therefore, the audience would be familiar with all the concepts presented by Jesus. He was not teaching from a false Pharisee teaching.
 
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redleghunter

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The converstion that Jesus described may well be a real one that takes place in a displaced time frame, it says nothing about disembodied people.
Both Lazarus and the Rich man die and buried.

So who is in the Bosom of Abraham and who is suffering in Hades? We know this occurs before any resurrection given the Rich man asks to have Lazarus go back and warn his brothers.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Jesus was using the (Hebrew) religious leaders false beliefs to expose them, against them.
Nothing to do with greek way of thinking,
and nothing to do at all with any intermediary state (except the false beliefs Jesus was exposing).
I would say those are the ones Jesus are referring to in Reve 2:9 and 3:9.
Remember this event when Jesus entered the synagogue of the Jews?
If I am not mistaken, the only ones that worship in Synagogues are those that still practice OC Mosaic Judaism

Luk 4:
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up.
And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.
20 And He rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down.
And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
29 And they rose up and drove him out of the town and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw Him down the cliff.
30 But passing through their midst, he went away.

Reve 2:9
“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich);
and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not,

but are a synagogue of Satan.
Reve 3:9
“Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but are FALSE—
indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you
.

images
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Therefore, the audience would be familiar with all the concepts presented by Jesus. He was not teaching from a false Pharisee teaching.

Well, yes, they (the religious leaders) were familiar with the concepts, false concepts, and they were furious with Jesus for exposing them publicly in front of others with their own false beliefs.

Jesus did not teach a false Pharisee teaching, but exposed it,
as the Father directed Him.
 
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redleghunter

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Well, yes, they (the religious leaders) were familiar with the concepts, false concepts, and they were furious with Jesus for exposing them publicly in front of others with their own false beliefs.

Jesus did not teach a false Pharisee teaching, but exposed it,
as the Father directed Him.
The context does not support this at all. Just saying it again does not add credibility to the claim. The preceding words of Jesus address wealth and self exaltation. Then the Law and Prophets, then the Kingdom of God.
Then a story about a rich man who exalted himself and a poor sick man. Both get their due reward.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The context does not support this at all. Just saying it again does not add credibility to the claim. The preceding words of Jesus address wealth and self exaltation. Then the Law and Prophets, then the Kingdom of God.
Then a story about a rich man who exalted himself and a poor sick man. Both get their due reward.
You disagree. I'm not here to prove it to you. If you search online you will find the proof you apparently desire in order to believe the truth. If you do not search, you won't find it.
 
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redleghunter

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You disagree. I'm not here to prove it to you. If you search online you will find the proof you apparently desire in order to believe the truth. If you do not search, you won't find it.
The truth is on the pages of Scriptures. I laid it out logically in chronological order and it fits just like all of the teachings of Jesus.

How you get Jesus told a false parable to point out the Pharisees erroneously believed in an intermediary state is completely baseless. If the story was preceded by "beware the false teachings of the Pharisees" then you would at least have a basis to argue the point. But such a notion is not in the text at all.

Second point. If the narrative was to point out a false teaching why did Jesus conclude with an allusion to His future resurrection? The Pharisees already believed in the resurrection of the dead as we see in Acts 23:6-8
 
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Anguspure

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Both Lazarus and the Rich man die and buried.

So who is in the Bosom of Abraham and who is suffering in Hades? We know this occurs before any resurrection given the Rich man asks to have Lazarus go back and warn his brothers.
No we do not know this.

Only a person who is not appraised of time relativity and transdimensionality would think such a thing, and be excused for thinking so. We who live in an age of knowledge have little excuse.

Only the Richman thinks that his brothers can be saved and he would not know anything else since what he knows in the story is the next thing that he knows after death.

As far as he's concerned it is a mere twinkling of an eye, whereas the truth could be that the events take place a few millenia after his death.
 
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redleghunter

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No we do not know this.

Only a person who is not appraised of time relativity and transdimensionality would think such a thing, and be excused for thinking so. We who live in an age of knowledge have little excuse.

Only the Richman thinks that his brothers can be saved and he would not know anything else since what he knows in the story is the next thing that he knows after death.

As far as he's concerned it is a mere twinkling of an eye, whereas the truth could be that the events take place a few millenia after his death.
Doesn't follow. Did Abraham miss some staff meetings? He tells the man his family has Moses and the Prophets:

Luke 16:
And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
 
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Radagast

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The idea we get from Greek dualism is that the physical/material world is base and associated with something less than the spiritual world that is free of the physical, that when we die we are freed from the physical and float around in a ghosty way (playing harps on clouds and the like).

Now you're conflating dualism and Neoplatonism. They are not the same.
 
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Anguspure

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Doesn't follow. Did Abraham miss some staff meetings? He tells the man his family has Moses and the Prophets:

Luke 16:
And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Sorry, we should not be reading things into the text that simply are not there. Nothing in the text warrants an interpretation that necssitates that the conversation occured concurrent with events of the 1st century upon which the story is based, nor does it imply that the people in the story are floaty disembodied humans. And furthermore it does not imply that the Richman suffers eternal life in conscious torment forever. Reading all of these things into the text is merely trying to shoe horn pagan concepts into a very Jewish story.
 
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Anguspure

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Now you're conflating dualism and Neoplatonism. They are not the same.
One stems from the other. Both pagan concepts that do not belong with the truth revealed in the Jewish scripture (inculding the NT).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Doesn't follow. Did Abraham miss some staff meetings? He tells the man his family has Moses and the Prophets:

Luke 16:
And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Both Lazarus and the Rich man die and buried.

So who is in the Bosom of Abraham and who is suffering in Hades?
We know this occurs beforeny resurrection given the Rich man asks to have Lazarus go back and warn his brothers.
I find it interesting that the Gospels of Luke and John are the only places Lazarus is mentioned in the NT.
As far as the first resurrection, note the similarity of events in John 11:39 and Revelation 11, and the 3 and half days Lazarus and the 2 witnesses were dead.......AWESOME!

Luke 16:22
Became yet to be dying the poor-one, and him to be carried away by the Messengers into the Bosom of Abraham.
Died yet also the rich-one and was buried
.

John 11:39
Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone.
Martha is saying to Him, the sister of the one having deceased, "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a great Voice He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"


Reve 11:
9 And are observing out of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations the body/*s of them days three and half-equal and the bodies of them not they suffer to be placed into tomb.
11 And after the three days and half-equal a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"

And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.....................

.................The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.

Luke 16:22
Became yet to be dying the poor-one, and him to be carried away by the Messengers into the Bosom of Abraham.
Died yet also the rich-one and was buried
.

First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Yeshua. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Notice, there is no mention of his burial here. Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23).

So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades when he died.

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible.
Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God:
 
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redleghunter

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Sorry, we should not be reading things into the text that simply are not there. Nothing in the text warrants an interpretation that necssitates that the conversation occured concurrent with events of the 1st century
Who made that claim? The text necessitates we read it plainly. This is not a story about eternal life after the second coming of Christ. It's about how Jesus and the Jews understood what happened to people after they die before the resurrection. This is clearly denoted by the man wanting to warn his brothers. And Moses saying let them hear (present tense) Moses and the Prophets.

nor does it imply that the people in the story are floaty disembodied humans.
Yeah Casper the ghost and Scooby Doo and the gang. Got it.

Christ and the apostle Paul teach dichotomy of mankind. They both taught we have a material and immaterial self. Again, how that immaterial separates after death of the body and what it looks like is not revealed explicitly. But we do know it happens because Paul tells us our next stop before the Resurrection is present with the Lord.

You should really avoid the hyperbole as no one posting here is espousing your Casper the friendly ghost meme.

And furthermore it does not imply that the Richman suffers eternal life in conscious torment forever.
Once again no one suggested such as the resurrection has not occurred in the story setting. This is the intermediary state.

Reading all of these things into the text is merely trying to shoe horn pagan concepts into a very Jewish story.
Lol no one is doing that.

Yet every attempt to take the story on the merits and how Jesus used it to support His argument goes ignored. As do the Scriptures refuting the JW SDA doctrines espoused in this thread.

But I'm glad you see this as a Jewish story meaning they did believe in an intermediary state.

Maybe it would help if you just linked us to the blog site you are getting this from.
 
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redleghunter

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I find it interesting that the Gospels of Luke and John are the only places Lazarus is mentioned in the NT.
As far as the first resurrection, note the similarity of events in John 11:39 and Revelation 11, and the 3 and half days Lazarus and the 2 witnesses were dead.......AWESOME!
Please let me interrupt here. These are two different men both named Lazarus. One is a real person who Jesus raised and the other (in the story) we don't know if he is real or just a name Jesus used to personalize the story. As in all parables taught by Jesus proper names are not used save this one.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But I'm glad you see this as a Jewish story meaning they did believe in an intermediary state.
Realize it was the religious leaders opposed to Jesus who believed this, and Jesus exposed it and them as false teachers.
 
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redleghunter

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Realize it was the religious leaders opposed to Jesus who believed this, and Jesus exposed it and them as false teachers.
You have not shown this to be true. Again repeating an assertion does not add strength to it.

Show me in the text where Jesus is addressing a false teaching. The discourse leading up to the qualifying story is not about false teachings. It's about exalting oneself above others and the love of wealth. The Lazarus story reinforces this.

The clear message is the Pharisees are the Rich man and those who they exalt themselves over is Lazarus. The Pharisees will reap the same fate as the Rich man.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You have not shown this to be true. Again repeating an assertion does not add strength to it.

Show me in the text where Jesus is addressing a false teaching. The discourse leading up to the qualifying story is not about false teachings. It's about exalting oneself above others and the love of wealth. The Lazarus story reinforces this.

The clear message is the Pharisees are the Rich man and those who they exalt themselves over is Lazarus. The Pharisees will reap the same fate as the Rich man.
I'm not worried (should I be ?) for you. I believe you will find out when you want to, and not before then. Here and now is not the time, nor the place, and you don't seem to want to know - as other posts have already shown you and you didn't accept them.
So, whenever you're ready, we pray , Yahweh will grant the true understanding , if He is Willing, of course. Always if He is willing. His Time, not ours.
 
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