Jewish naming of YHWH

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,403
15,493
✟1,109,304.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Listening to Nehemia Gordon now and his point about a Rabbi burned at the stake for writing the actual name of YHWH in the 1st Century AD.

I wonder if early Christians used YHWH but purged it in favour of Theos for the NT...
I don't think the early Christians changed anything the NT writers wrote. If Yehovah was used by the writers they would have left it just as they have in the OT.
 
Upvote 0

Mark_Sam

Veteran Newbie
Mar 12, 2011
612
333
29
✟54,249.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Some years ago, in Catholic circles, it was actually people who used Yahweh in hymns and songs ("Yahweh I Know You Are Near", "Yahweh Is My Sheperd", "Yahweh Is The God Of My Salvation", to name a few). But in 2008, the pope issued a document saying that this practice should cease. Some of the reasons:

(i) It has been this way since time immemorial. The LXX (300 BC) translates YHWH as Kyrios, that is, Lord. Following this tradition, the New Testament authors also never used YHWH, only Kyrios. Also the Vetus Latina and the Vulgate, Bible translation made from the Hebrew, also use Dominus (Lord) in place of YHWH. And the Hebrews themselves say Adonai when encountering YHWH. And this tradition is born out of respect and fear of the Lord. So using Yahweh is a novelty, unheard of in both Jewish and Christian tradition.

(ii) The theological development of the New Testament is the proclamation of Christ as Lord. Using "Lord" to refer to Christ proclaims his Divinity. Thus, the title becomes interchangeable between the God of Israel and the Messiah of Israel - even though the Messiah is never properly called "Lord" (YHWH) in the Old Testament. So there seems to be strong Christological reasons for using "Lord" and "Jesus" over YHWH, as the name of Jesus, who is Lord, is the name above all names.

(For those interested, the reference is Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Prot. No. 213/08/L, dated 8th of August 2008).

Also, I like to think that since the name YHWH is 'hidden' in the name of Jesus (Yeshua - 'YHWH is salvation'), using the name of Jesus is the best and most proper way of using the name YHWH.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It does have that meaning, yes. It also has the meaning of name and monument.

Hence Ha'Shem does not mean "the reputation".
Ha Shem is just "the name." But shem does deal with His reputation... in fact, with God is goes beyond character, reputation and authority and extends to power and presence as well. Where were the sacrifices? Where His name was placed. But it also means what you said, name and memorial... consider...

Strong’s defines shem as name, as does Brown Driver Briggs, but both also define shem as a mark or memorial of individuality. Both dictionaries go on to tie it to character, authority, honor, reputation and fame. In other words, in Western English especially that is spoken in the United States, deals with name as only what we call him. But in the Semitic mindset, shem might be dealing with what we call somebody, but it is more in line with the type of person the name bearer is. Please allow me show you what I mean.

In the Explanatory Notes of the 1998 version of “The Scriptures” (by ISR) we read this under this topic Name:

“The Hebrew word is shĕm, which means much more than “name” in English. It is not a mere label of identification; it is an expression of the essential nature of the bearer of that name. In Hebrew, in the Scriptures, it speaks foremost of His authority. The Name of יהוה reveals Him, His character, the remembrance of Him, and His authority.”

To repeat, name in English is a label of identification, but shem in Hebrew is an expression of the nature of the name bearer. Shem reveals the person, his character, even his authority. This concept is supported by the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon (AHL), which defines words according the meaning of each Hebrew letter, it says this of shem:

“The wind, or breath, of someone or something is its character. Hebrew names are words given to describe character. The breath of a man is character, what makes one what he is. The name of an individual is more than an identifier but descriptive of his character or breath.”

But don't miscount reputation. If in Hebrew one's character is their name, then their reputation is also built on those same things. God has the reputation of being loving, kind, patient (etc.) but since those are His character attributes, then His reputation is built on character attributes and character attributes are His name.
 
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,548
✟160,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I don't think the early Christians changed anything the NT writers wrote. If Yehovah was used by the writers they would have left it just as they have in the OT.

I don't think we can know until we discover a 1st century original text but considering how little problem Jesus had with expectations of Jewish and Roman authorities I think it odd that he would not use the name YHWH.

We can only speculate on that though, until archaeology comes up with evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Listening to Nehemia Gordon now and his point about a Rabbi burned at the stake for writing the actual name of YHWH in the 1st Century AD.

But that isn't true... we have the LXX (Septuagint)... the Greek OT from 300BC that was taken from Hebrew to Greek for Hellenized Jews. There, everything was in Greek but God's name which was written in Paleo-Hebrew (the font in use at the time). We have YHWH written in the Massoretic script from 900AD, and we have stuff from Qumran from the time of Christ that has His name written. I think people just make stuff up.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hank, I respect you and have enjoyed your posts. I have heard Jews use His name. In Christian circles we have this image of the Jews that is skewed. Once at a conference I helped put together, I had an Orthodox Jew speak. Afterward, we were all fellowshiping and a young lady was talking to my Jewish friend and was asking why the Jews don't have blue in their tzitiot (fringes). He stood there and listened and when she was done, he reached into his pants (can't image what went through her mind for a second or two :) ) and pulled out his tassels and they had blue. I am telling you, Jews use His name, just not in front of non-Jews. And, Chabad doesn't reflect all Jewish people. It is an Ultra-Orthodox (Chassidic or Hassidic) and does not reflect the Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, or Karaite Jews.
 
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,548
✟160,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
(i) It has been this way since time immemorial.

It remains a tradition of man though, as nowhere in the OT are the Jews told by YHWH to refer to YHWH as "adonai". Given that situation, the same is possibly true about the NT...but there is found a whole can of worms.
 
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,403
15,493
✟1,109,304.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I've met Nehemiah... I like him as a person, I don't agree with him on this at all.
Not critizing or condemning because according to him it is a common mistake but I had to chuckle. Here we are discussing God's name and you get Nehemia's name wrong, I used to do that all the time.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Ken Rank
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not critizing or condemning because according to him it is a common mistake but I had to chuckle. Here we are discussing God's name and you get Nehemia's name wrong, I used to do that all the time.
Well, actually, he spells it with Hebrew letters so I just transliterated. :) No matter... be blessed Hank, I have to run and get some work done today.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,403
15,493
✟1,109,304.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That's interesting. He seems to link the covering of YHWH's name with the cult of Baal-Hadad, a Canaanite bull god which may have links with the Golden Calf and who is depicted as combating Lotan (a prefiguring / version of YHWH vrs Leviathan).

I wonder if it is a heretical tradition that has crept in....
I don't think you are explaining that correctly, which video did you watch?

Here is one that explains the pronunciation of the name.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It remains a tradition of man though, as nowhere in the OT are the Jews told by YHWH to refer to YHWH as "adonai". Given that situation, the same is possibly true about the NT...but there is found a whole can of worms.
No, but God calls Himself Adonai... and it called Adonai a number of times by various Prophets. He also refers to Himself as ba'al too... I always love pointing that one out to the anti-"Lord" crowd. But if God doesn't have a problem with certain prophets using Adonai... then He doesn't have a problem with it. Move on... there is a world full of people that do not know Him, go proclaim His name to them.
 
Upvote 0

Mark_Sam

Veteran Newbie
Mar 12, 2011
612
333
29
✟54,249.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
It remains a tradition of man though, as nowhere in the OT are the Jews told by YHWH to refer to YHWH as "adonai". Given that situation, the same is possibly true about the NT...but there is found a whole can of worms.
Yes, it may be a tradition of man, but there is still wisdom to be found there. And if was of such importance, why wouldn't God have corrected his people (both Old Testament and New Testament) on it? Sacred Name Bibles have only existed for about a hundred years (save the Old Testament in its original written Hebrew).
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Why is it that the Jews do not use YHWH?

They claim it is too sacred.

But they are told to "proclaim his name" in Isaiah 12:4 and to call upon it in Psalms 105:1, so who came up with the idea of not saying Yahweh's name? It cannot have come from YHWH himself, as He told them to proclaim his name and I am unaware of any point in the Bible where the Jews are told (by Yahweh) to refer to Yahweh as "Adonai".

So what is going on here, and more importantly WHO thought they could countermand Yahweh himself?
Seems to be a superstitious fear but some say it is a sign of reverence; I don't see exactly how refusing to speak God's name is reverence when God gave himself that name and told Moses what it was. But people have all sorts of ideas that do not seem to make a whole lot of sense.
 
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,548
✟160,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I don't think you are explaining that correctly, which video did you watch?

Here is one that explains the pronunciation of the name.

I'm listening to this one, in which he mentions that Hadad's name was also ineffable. I have heard of Hadad before and know the link with Bulls (and also the Hadad vrs Lotan / YHWH vs Leviathan comparison).

 
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,548
✟160,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
No, but God calls Himself Adonai... and it called Adonai a number of times by various Prophets. He also refers to Himself as ba'al too... I always love pointing that one out to the anti-"Lord" crowd. But if God doesn't have a problem with certain prophets using Adonai... then He doesn't have a problem with it. Move on... there is a world full of people that do not know Him, go proclaim His name to them.

Could you quote where YHWH calls himself Adonai. And if he does, where he says the Jews should not say YHWH but should say Adonai instead.

EDIT: ah, found it, Jeremiah 44:26 when YHWH forbids the use of his name by Jews in Egypt who were in apostasy burning incense to the Queen of Heaven. It is actually a sign from YHWH that such people ARE in apostasy!! :o
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
May 24, 2018
15
3
27
Sydney
✟15,487.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
But we should still use Yahweh, or perhaps (as that was YHWH's name in Hebrew as best we know) we should refer to YHWH as "I AM"....as that is what YHWH means after all.
But he has so many names each one reffering to a different part of his character shouldn’t we be focusing on all of his names and not just one?
 
Upvote 0

2Timothy2:15

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2016
2,226
1,227
CA
✟78,248.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why is it that the Jews do not use YHWH?

They claim it is too sacred.

But they are told to "proclaim his name" in Isaiah 12:4 and to call upon it in Psalms 105:1, so who came up with the idea of not saying Yahweh's name? It cannot have come from YHWH himself, as He told them to proclaim his name and I am unaware of any point in the Bible where the Jews are told (by Yahweh) to refer to Yahweh as "Adonai".

So what is going on here, and more importantly WHO thought they could countermand Yahweh himself?

Because there was no vowel and they knew not to make up a sound or interpretation for it when the Lord did not give it to them. It was not until 500 years after Christ some Talmudic Jews Masoretes who don't believe in Jesus by the way introduced the vowel many use today to say Yaweh.
 
Upvote 0

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
4,660
1,787
North America
✟85,817.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The actual meaning of YHWH is simply (The Living God) and binds to “I AM that I AM”.

Some Jews even write God as G-d. There is no mistaking, it was an act on their part to simply avoid misusing or allowing others to misuse the Name of God.

It was a way of disallowing people from writing about God in a false manner or speaking of Him in a false matter.

The theological confusion starts when people try to comprehend what Jesus means to say “to have seen me is to have seen the Father”, and “I and my Father are One”.

People have lost the ability to trace out what names are actually used and what they mean, in light of the Father and Son being seen as God.

There is no doubt that hiding matters has allowed controversy to creep in and more than that, many people are filling the gaps in with their own ideas.

Jewish thinking is very wise to study, because it brings the entire scriptures to light in an incomprehensible way!

I wish Jews and Christians could study together everywhere, because there are Spiritual Treasures that are buried between the two.

Along this same line, people have killed one another to protect man made expressions of truths that have long since been forgotten how to prove.

People got so hung up on factions that they went with the pamphlets instead of learning how to understand scripture in full context, without Man made writings to assist.

Much of the issues out there are simply because of this.

Also, people saying Jesus Loves you and then being jerks (I’m guilty as charged), when different ideas arise is another reason all of this has become so confusing.

Instead of discussing this like adults, many people have (myself included) been kids about the matter and not allowed others to discuss differing opinions in an atmosphere where there won’t be repercussions.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Inkfingers

Somebody's heretic
Site Supporter
May 17, 2014
5,638
1,548
✟160,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Because there was no vowel and they knew not to make up a sound or interpretation for it when the Lord did not give it to them. It was not until 500 years after Christ some Talmudic Jews Masoretes who don't believe in Jesus by the way introduced the vowel many use today to say Yaweh.

It must have been something which could be pronounced though, as Moses was told to tell the Israelites that "הוה", HWH, had sent him to free them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Notice in Matthew 4:7 the word God is 'theo/theos' in the Greek. Matthew was not using the name of God.

That is my point. None of the New Testament writers use YHWH. When they quote the Old Testament, they do it in Greek, with YHWH replaced by Kurios = Lord.

In Matthew 4:7, the Greek actually has Kurion ton Theon, quoting Deuteronomy 6:16 in the Greek LXX (which is what the early Christians used). However, the Hebrew has Yĕhovah 'elohiym.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0