Jewish naming of YHWH

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Why is it that the Jews do not use YHWH?

They claim it is too sacred.

But they are told to "proclaim his name" in Isaiah 12:4 and to call upon it in Psalms 105:1, so who came up with the idea of not saying Yahweh's name? It cannot have come from YHWH himself, as He told them to proclaim his name and I am unaware of any point in the Bible where the Jews are told (by Yahweh) to refer to Yahweh as "Adonai".

So what is going on here, and more importantly WHO thought they could countermand Yahweh himself?

Radagast · May 24, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Why is it that the Jews do not use YHWH?

They claim it is too sacred.

But they are told to "proclaim his name" in Isaiah 12:4 and to call upon it in Psalms 105:1, so who came up with the idea of not saying Yahweh's name?

That's not really what "name" means there. The meaning is more like "reputation." Compare:

Psalms 105:1: Oh give thanks to the Lord; call upon his name (shem) ...

Proverbs 22:1: A good name (shem) is to be chosen rather than great riches ...

Also the New Testament supports not using the name YHWH; because the New Testament never uses it -- it uses "Lord" (kurios) instead.

Don't you believe that the New Testament is the word of God?

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Radagast said:
That's not really what "name" means there. The meaning is more like "reputation." Compare:

Psalms 105:1: Oh give thanks to the Lord; call upon his name (shem) ...

Proverbs 22:1: A good name (shem) is to be chosen rather than great riches ...

Shem can mean either name or reputation.

Are you saying that all who call on the reputation, not the name, of YHWH are saved? (Joel 2:32)

Also the New Testament supports not using the name YHWH; because the New Testament never uses it -- it uses "Lord" (kurios) instead.

And yet the Jews calling YHWH is a tradition of man not an instruction of YHWH...

Don't you believe that the New Testament is the word of God?

Is it inspired by YHWH? Yup.

Is it infallible and without fault? Nope - and if you disagree please say which of the numerous translations is the true one.

But that is not the subject of this thread.

What I am hoping to discover is who started the whole 'lets call YHWH Adonai' tradition of man...and why they did so when explicitly told to do otherwise.

Dkh587 · May 24, 2018

It stems from manmade tradition, plain and simple.

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Dkh587 said:
It stems from manmade tradition, plain and simple.

Yup, that's my impression too.

Radagast · May 24, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Shem can mean either name or reputation.

Are you saying that all who call on the reputation, not the name, of YHWH are saved? (Joel 2:32)

Well, Romans 10:6-13 clarifies Joel 2:32: we must call on the name of Jesus to be saved.

But most uses of "name" in the OT referring to God reflect His reputation; or his glory (which is the same thing); or the need to remember His past deeds (which is the same thing).

Inkfingers said:
Is it infallible and without fault? Nope - and if you disagree please say which of the numerous translations is the true one.

If you don't accept the New Testament, in its original Greek form, I have nothing to say to you.

Inkfingers said:
What I am hoping to discover is who started the whole 'lets call YHWH Adonai' tradition of man...and why they did so when explicitly told to do otherwise.

There you go: Matthew did it (Matthew 4:7), Mark did it (Mark 1:3), Luke did it (Luke 1:9), John did it (John 1:23), Paul did it (Romans 10:13), and Peter did it (1 Peter 1:25).

If you call the writings of those guys the "tradition of man," we don't share the same faith at all.

Mark_Sam · May 24, 2018

The true pronunciation of the tetragrammaton has been lost, and the modern "Yahweh" is just a scholarly reconstruction of what it might have sounded like (although I do happen to believe it is the correct one). And as mentioned, "name" is not only a collection of sounds, but represents the person, their being, what they are and what they do. To proclaim the name of the Lord, then, is to preach the Gospel, the proclaim what YHWH has done for his people and still is doing to this day.

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Radagast said:
Well, Romans 10:6-13 clarifies Joel 2:32: we must call on the name of Jesus to be saved.

But most uses of "name" in the OT referring to God reflect His reputation; or his glory (which is the same thing); or the need to remember His past deeds (which is the same thing).

That is an assumption...

And Shem is not the same as Shekhinah.

If you don't accept the New Testament, in its original Greek form, I have nothing to say to you.

Its original Greek form is open to multiple interpretation. Which is the correct one?

There you go: Matthew did it (Matthew 4:7), Mark did it (Mark 1:3), Luke did it (Luke 1:9), John did it (John 1:23), Paul did it (Romans 10:13), and Peter did it (1 Peter 1:25).

If you call the writings of those guys the "tradition of man," we don't share the same faith at all.

That does indeed raise the question on how much scripture contains traditions of men (which clearly the OT does).

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Mark_Sam said:
The true pronunciation of the tetragrammaton has been lost, and the modern "Yahweh" is just a scholarly reconstruction of what it might have sounded like (although I do happen to believe it is the correct one). And as mentioned, "name" is not only a collection of sounds, but represents the person, their being, what they are and what they do. To proclaim the name of the Lord, then, is to preach the Gospel, the proclaim what YHWH has done for his people and still is doing to this day.

But we should still use Yahweh, or perhaps (as that was YHWH's name in Hebrew as best we know) we should refer to YHWH as "I AM"....as that is what YHWH means after all.

Hank77 · May 24, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Shem can mean either name or reputation.

Are you saying that all who call on the reputation, not the name, of YHWH are saved? (Joel 2:32)

And yet the Jews calling YHWH is a tradition of man not an instruction of YHWH...

Is it inspired by YHWH? Yup.

Is it infallible and without fault? Nope - and if you disagree please say which of the numerous translations is the true one.

But that is not the subject of this thread.

What I am hoping to discover is who started the whole 'lets call YHWH Adonai' tradition of man...and why they did so when explicitly told to do otherwise.

See Youtube videos with Nehemia Gordon, who is Jewish, was raised an Orthodox Jew, and is now a Karaite Jew.

Radagast · May 24, 2018

Hank77 said:
See Youtube videos with Nehemia Gordon, who is Jewish, was raised an Orthodox Jew, and is now a Karaite Jew.

Actually, we're probably better off getting our religious teaching from Christian teachers, not Jewish ones.

Ken Rank · May 24, 2018

Inkfingers said:
Why is it that the Jews do not use YHWH?

They claim it is too sacred.

But they are told to "proclaim his name" in Isaiah 12:4 and to call upon it in Psalms 105:1, so who came up with the idea of not saying Yahweh's name? It cannot have come from YHWH himself, as He told them to proclaim his name and I am unaware of any point in the Bible where the Jews are told (by Yahweh) to refer to Yahweh as "Adonai".

So what is going on here, and more importantly WHO thought they could countermand Yahweh himself?

This took me a little time to understand, but since then, I have been able to abridge it and make it understandable. Please consider this before responding....

To answer your question as to why they don't say it, I can tell you that they do. What they don't do is use it in front of non-Jews. I know this for a fact, I have many Jewish friends, I have attended synagogues, what I am saying is true. That doesn't mean they use it casually, oh no... very reverently and sparingly. That said...

In Hebrew, the word for "name" is shem. Shem is not dealing as much with "what we call somebody," as it is the name bearer's character, reputation, and authority. So let me give you a few examples..

What does it mean to "walk in the name of God?" Well, we can't walk in letters or a pronunciation, His name isn't a pair of shoes we put on and go for a walk. No, what this means is that we walk out our daily life in a manner that stands in harmony with God's character, is within His will (authority) and adds to His reputation. That is walking in His name. The flip side is profaning His name. Many sacred namers say we profane His name by not saying it or mispronouncing it and so forth. That is lazy English based theology that clearly lacks any Hebraic understanding. Profaning God's name is claiming that YHWH is your God but then walking our your life in a manner that is not in harmony with His character, that is outside of His will and authority, and that takes from His reputation.

So, what does it mean to proclaim His name? Grab a bull horn and stand on your rooftop and scream out whatever pronunciation is popular this week? No... not when we understand what shem means. What it means, is that we tell the world about His greatness... we proclaim His character, His authority, His reputation... to all we encounter. God Himself did this very thing...

Exo 34:5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
Exo 34:6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

What did "God" do when He proclaimed His own name? He TOLD of His own character attributes... that He is merciful, long suffering, abounding in goodness, and so forth.

So don't indict the Jewish people because they won't say whatever pronunciation of YHWH they tend to use in front of you or me... and consider what shem means here. I do have an article I have written on this topic that contains plenty of examples and references about "the name of YHWH." If you want me to share it I will.

Blessings.
Ken

Radagast · May 24, 2018

Ken Rank said:
So, what does it mean to proclaim His name? Grab a bull horn and stand on your rooftop and scream out whatever pronunciation is popular this week? No... not when we understand what shem means. What it means, is that we tell the world about His greatness... we proclaim His character, His authority, His reputation... to all we encounter.

Exactly.

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Hank77 said:
See Youtube videos with Nehemia Gordon, who is Jewish, was raised an Orthodox Jew, and is now a Karaite Jew.

That's interesting. He seems to link the covering of YHWH's name with the cult of Baal-Hadad, a Canaanite bull god which may have links with the Golden Calf and who is depicted as combating Lotan (a prefiguring / version of YHWH vrs Leviathan).

I wonder if it is a heretical tradition that has crept in....

Ken Rank · May 24, 2018

Inkfingers said:
That's interesting. He seems to link the covering of YHWH's name with the cult of Baal-Hadad, a Canaanite bull god which may have links with the Golden Calf and who is depicted as combating Lotan (a prefiguring / version of YHWH vrs Leviathan).

I've met Nehemiah... I like him as a person, I don't agree with him on this at all. Like I said, Jewish people use the name YHWH in their speech, just not in front of non-Jews. The pronunciation Nehemiah leans toward (Yehovah) is not what the Orthodox use. I personally think their all wrong and I can (but won't on an open forum) provide a reasonable explanation for something else. I won't do it openly because of how people fight over this, I just don't want to add it to the mix.

Besides... please read my other post to you about shem. Proclaiming His name is not about pronouncing YHWH, it is about reflecting His character, reputation and authority in our words and deeds.

Hank77 · May 24, 2018

Radagast said:
Actually, we're probably better off getting our religious teaching from Christian teachers, not Jewish ones.

The question being asked is a Jewish question. If you want to know about the washing of hands mentioned by Jesus in the NT you won't find the answer in the NT writings or the OT writings. You have to go to a Jewish source outside the Bible. The Bible doesn't explain why most Jews don't say the name of God or how that became the case.
Christians don't have a problem using the name of God, Yehovah, most Jews do and some Messianic Jews/Gentiles are being misled about the use of the name.
Notice in Matthew 4:7 the word God is 'theo/theos' in the Greek. Matthew was not using the name of God. Theos would be like Elohim in the OT.
Also consider that the NT writers were writing for many Greek speaking Jews who did not use the name Yehovah. Why would they have made God's name a point of contention when there was already serious difficulties in converting the Jews?

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Ken Rank said:
In Hebrew, the word for "name" is shem. Shem is not dealing as much with "what we call somebody," as it is the name bearer's character, reputation, and authority.

It does have that meaning, yes. It also has the meaning of name and monument.

Hence Ha'Shem does not mean "the reputation".

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Hank77 said:
Why would they have made God's name a point of contention when there was already serious difficulties in converting the Jews?

Listening to Nehemia Gordon now and his point about a Rabbi burned at the stake for writing the actual name of YHWH in the 1st Century AD.

I wonder if early Christians used YHWH but purged it in favour of Theos for the NT...

Inkfingers · May 24, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I've met Nehemiah... I like him as a person, I don't agree with him on this at all. Like I said, Jewish people use the name YHWH in their speech, just not in front of non-Jews. The pronunciation Nehemiah leans toward (Yehovah) is not what the Orthodox use. I personally think their all wrong and I can (but won't on an open forum) provide a reasonable explanation for something else. I won't do it openly because of how people fight over this, I just don't want to add it to the mix.

Besides... please read my other post to you about shem. Proclaiming His name is not about pronouncing YHWH, it is about reflecting His character, reputation and authority in our words and deeds.

That's odd because as an undergrad (Religious Studies) I spoke to Jewish people and they said they do not use the name. Not just avoiding using it around gentiles but do not use it at all.

Hence Ha'shem (which does NOT refer to YHWH's reputation).

Hank77 · May 24, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Like I said, Jewish people use the name YHWH in their speech, just not in front of non-Jews.

Not according to Chabad, a Jewish website.
Why Don’t Jews Say G‑d’s Name? - On the use of the word <i>“Hashem”</i>

Jewish naming of YHWH

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