Immaculate Conception???

Blade

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Amazing... well things get said believed based on? Its not written...anywhere. Its one of those "what that verse is REALLY saying" kind of things is what I am reading and studying. Yet.. God.. Yeshua/Jesus and the sweet sweet holy Spirit are SO real.. that LIVES WHERE? IN US.. never leaves us never forsakes us and it would seem NO ONE can simple ask Him about this. For His sheep/children KNOW His voice. For He stands at the door and knocks.. you let Him no? He in the Father the Father in Him and He is? yeah.. IN YOU!

So.. now GOD. Is a man/human? No for He is a SPIRIT. Is not HE or SHE. We say HE.. yet HE is ALL. There is no OTHER. He as it is written needs NO ONE..nothing. Anytime you doubt.. then why ask some man born into this world? Ask HIM. You HAVE to ask from your heart. What I mean is. I once was talking to a really good friend lived next door who was Mormon. Now to prove his point he brought out all these books..to again prove his point. ALL of which were written by Mormons. So if we ASK the Father something based on what we THINK and personally believe. He will say nothing. Well I am not right.. He is. So I don't go to Him saying "Father I KNOW Mary is NOT..or Mary IS" again. He will say nothing. He is the truth.

And.. praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS.. He can say ANYTHING tell me ANYTHING. He for me has ALWAYS backed up what HE says.. with His word. So I will always know its Him. Like once I asked about ..how can you send all these people to hell? (I was like 14). He came right back with "for God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice". I once asked about a man in a elderly home that I would visit and read the bible to. "why is this man not getting healed?" He came right back with "remember when Daniel prayed?" I said..ok if this is really you were is that written? He said "Daniel 10:9-12". Now at that time I had never read the book of Danel or sad ANY OT book. Nor had a CLUE about this story where it would be..

My point is NOT ME..but.. BELIEVE He is and He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. That diligently seek Him. And man I tell Him all the time..if I have or am wrong in ANYTHING ..tell me.. I will repent and get it right. So.. is what you believe about YOU or those you follow or Him? There is only ONE GOD ONE MESSIAH. Its the belief in Him aka Christ that saves anyone. So I went a LONG WAY around the barn but..

Somethings said taught ... I can't find written.
 
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chilehed

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So, in your opinion, the Catholic church doesn't consider Mary's consent a prerequisite to becoming pregnant and ultimately giving birth?
I didn't say anything that sounds remotely like that. Why do you guys keep trying to change the subject?
 
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chilehed

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Well, that's the only way your contention works. :scratch:
That may be the only way what you think I'm saying works, but what I actually said, as evidenced by the words themselves, had nothing to do with that and you seem to be totally unable to accurately mirror what I've said.

I'm leaving for a camping trip early tomorrow, and need to pack. I suggest you read the relevant encyclical very carefully, and make sure to not substitute your own words for what it actually says. There isn't a single hint of anything about Mary had to be sinless in order to bear a sinless child.

Have a blessed Memorial Day weekend.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I don't recall in Joseph's dream a woman about to give birth to a child with a dragon waiting to eat it...

Obviously the 12 stars represent Israel, but please do try to explain how the woman isn't Mary, the child Christ, and the dragon Satan trying to destroy Christ.

No, that part is revealed in the New Testament. If you recall, Jesus is pretty much concealed in the Old Testament, but we can see what symbolized Jesus, like in the temple, and ceremonial things, because we are on the other side of His birth.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Actually we don't know whether it was written by James or not, only that it is unlikely. However the church still considers it authoiritative based on the fact that is was accepted as a recording of the already established oral traditions. When the apostles wrote the Gospels, they went around and asked people who knew Christ for their accounts of him. That is why we have stories about Christ which the apostles never witnessed. It is the same with the protoevangelicon. Sure we might not know who wrote it (just like Hebrews), we can still call it reliable as the early church did.

The book I read on the "infancy" said that when Jesus was a boy, he pushed another boy off a root and the kid died, and Jesus raised Him from the dead. That just couldn't have happened.
 
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1stcenturylady

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You mean the old testament prophesies about the coming of Christ through a Virgin? ;)

That, but not in Revelation, but the gospels and epistles. I mean like the dreams in Daniel of all the beasts, and the Image of Nebuchadnezzar, etc. And in Joel about the coming of the Holy Spirit. Some people stay away from the Old Testament, but it is very necessary to fully understand the fulfillment of prophecies.
 
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☦Marius☦

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The book I read on the "infancy" said that when Jesus was a boy, he pushed another boy off a root and the kid died, and Jesus raised Him from the dead. That just couldn't have happened.

Whatever you are reading is not what I am talking about.
 
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☦Marius☦

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We need to be perfectly clear about something. Sinlessness as defined in "immaculate conception" is not the same as practical righteousness and holiness. There is no question that Mary and Joseph were very righteous, and blameless as far as the Law was concerned. But since they were human like us (and unlike Christ) they could not escape the inherent sin nature inherited from Adam (Rom 5:12).

What the RCC teaches is that Mary was an exception to all of humanity, and that is not what Scripture says. Mary herself acknowledged that she needed a Savior.

I know the RCC beliefs in the immaculate conception. I don't believe it. I'm talking about the Orthodox Churches approach.
 
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Phil 1:21

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That may be the only way what you think I'm saying works, but what I actually said, as evidenced by the words themselves, had nothing to do with that and you seem to be totally unable to accurately mirror what I've said.

I'm leaving for a camping trip early tomorrow, and need to pack. I suggest you read the relevant encyclical very carefully, and make sure to not substitute your own words for what it actually says. There isn't a single hint of anything about Mary had to be sinless in order to bear a sinless child.

Have a blessed Memorial Day weekend.
CCC makes the point very clearly. Thanks.
 
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☦Marius☦

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No, that part is revealed in the New Testament. If you recall, Jesus is pretty much concealed in the Old Testament, but we can see what symbolized Jesus, like in the temple, and ceremonial things, because we are on the other side of His birth.

That, but not in Revelation, but the gospels and epistles. I mean like the dreams in Daniel of all the beasts, and the Image of Nebuchadnezzar, etc. And in Joel about the coming of the Holy Spirit. Some people stay away from the Old Testament, but it is very necessary to fully understand the fulfillment of prophecies.

Yes. But neither of those have to do with what we are talking about do they? You have yet to explain how the clear imagry of Mary, Jesus, and Satan in that passage I quoted, is not in fact that.
 
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Athanasius377

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Look up the protoevangelicon of James. It's a complication of early church teachings on Mary's Childhood and betrothal that dates about 120ad

Which I might add was condemned by various councils and in the West by Pope Innocent I. I can't say anything about the East as that it is not my area. The date is probably at least a generation or two after the final expulsion of the Jews from Judea in the second century given the limited knowledge of names, places etc. I highly doubt it comes from the early second century. Furthermore it describes the birth of the Lord as being beamed out of Mary's womb Star Trek style. This is to preserve certain bodily. . . shall we say, structures from being torn. Being structurally intact is what the work means by ever virgin which is a Gnostic idea. The work is likely Gnostic in origin as its theology is a mess. From the M.R. James translation of the Infancy Gospel of James:

XVIII. I And he found a cave there and brought her into it, and set his sons by her: and he went forth and sought for a midwife of the Hebrews in the country of Bethlehem.

2 Now I Joseph was walking, and I walked not. And I looked up to the air and saw the air in amazement. And I looked up unto the pole of the heaven and saw it standing still, and the fowls of the heaven without motion. And I looked upon the earth and saw a dish set, and workmen lying by it, and their hands were in the dish: and they that were chewing chewed not, and they that were lifting the food lifted it not, and they that put it to their mouth put it not thereto, but the faces of all of them were looking upward. And behold there were sheep being driven, and they went not forward but stood still; and the shepherd lifted his hand to smite them with his staff, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the stream of the river and saw the mouths of the kids upon the water and they drank not. And of a sudden all things moved onward in their course.

XIX. I And behold a woman coming down from the hillcountry, and she said to me: Man, whither goest thou ? And I said: I seek a midwife of the Hebrews. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel ? And I said unto her: Yea. And she said: And who is she that bringeth forth in the cave ? And I said: She that is betrothed unto me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was nurtured up in the temple of the Lord: and I received her to wife by lot: and she is not my wife, but she hath conception by the Holy Ghost.

And the midwife said unto him: Is this the truth? And Joseph said unto her: Come hither and see. And the midwife went with him.

2 And they stood in the place of the cave: and behold a bright cloud overshadowing the cave. And the midwife said: My soul is magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen marvellous things: for salvation is born unto Israel. And immediately the cloud withdrew itself out of the cave, and a great light appeared in the cave so that our eyes could not endure it. And by little and little that light withdrew itself until the young child appeared: and it went and took the breast of its mother Mary.

And the midwife cried aloud and said: Great unto me to-day is this day, in that ! have seen this new sight. 3 And the midwife went forth of the cave and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, a new sight have I to tell thee. A virgin hath brought forth, which her nature alloweth not. And Salome said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I make not trial and prove her nature I will not believe that a virgin hath brought forth.

Here's a link for the entire text.

The Odes of Solomon and the Ascension of Isaiah are sources in addition to the Infancy Gospel of James in regards to mariology. You can find those texts in the same site. If memory serves there is someone on this site who did a dissertation on the Infancy Gospel of James in relation to Gnosticism. If we're lucky he'll drop by and say a few things.
 
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Fidelibus

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I have scriptural authority.

That's not actually answering the question I asked you. Back on post #57 you told TuxAme:

"Except you don't know the difference between a verse about an unsaved person without the Holy Spirit of Truth that needs the next verse to be saved and freed from all sin, and John's verses describing those in Christ that are already saved because they confessed their sin and were cleansed once and for all of their past sins."

And:

"Unfortunately you are not the only person that doesn't know how to understand scripture and uses 1 John 1:8 to justify their own sin!"

And:

"Do you understand what that means?"

And:

"For your information verse 7 is about a Christian."

Now to me, this sounds as if you are letting Tux know that "Your" understanding and interpretations of these passages (And scripture as a whole?) are superior to his and the Catholic Church when you stated:

"The ignorance in the Church is rampant! And it starts in the pulpit!"

And:

"Wake up people! If your priest doesn't know the word of God, study for yourself!"

For this reason I asked if you consider your "understanding" and "interpretation" of Scripture absolute and without error? (infallible) And if not, would you be willing to admit your "understanding" and "interpretation" of the passages you posted here could be in error?


What do you have?

As a member of the Catholic Church... Christ Himself is the source of the Catholic Church’s authority.

To ensure the success of this mission, Christ gave his Church the ability to teach, govern and sanctify with Christ’s own authority. The Apostles appointed successors to ensure that the Gospel would continue to be handed on faithfully as “the lasting source of all life for the Church” (Vatican II, “Lumen Gentium” 20; also Catechism #860).

The source and guarantee of this Church authority is Christ’s continuing presence in his Church----“Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Mt 28:20).

The purpose of this authority is to give the Church the ability to teach without error about the essentials of salvation: “On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18).

The scope of this authority concerns the official teachings of the Church on matters of faith, morals, and worship (liturgy & sacraments). We believe that, because of Christ’s continued presence and guarantee, his Church cannot lead people astray with its official teachings (which are distinct from the individual failings and opinions of its members, priests, bishops, and Popes).

Attn: With help from .....beginningCatholic.com.


But as I have said, my main focus is on you and me. 1 John 3:5-9

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That is Father God, not Mother Nature. LOL


However, if your answer is you are fallible, one can only conclude your understanding and interpretation of these passages could be in error.....correct?
 
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Invalidusername

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Mankind, yes. Christians, no. Do you believe 1 John 3:5-9 or not?

This is not saying that Christians never sin. It is saying that we cannot continue to sin habitually. You're changing the subject anyways.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Which I might add was condemned by various councils and in the West by Pope Innocent I. I can't say anything about the East as that it is not my area. The date is probably at least a generation or two after the final expulsion of the Jews from Judea in the second century given the limited knowledge of names, places etc. I highly doubt it comes from the early second century. Furthermore it describes the birth of the Lord as being beamed out of Mary's womb Star Trek style. This is to preserve certain bodily. . . shall we say, structures from being torn. Being structurally intact is what the work means by ever virgin which is a Gnostic idea. The work is likely Gnostic in origin as its theology is a mess. From the M.R. James translation of the Infancy Gospel of James:

XVIII. I And he found a cave there and brought her into it, and set his sons by her: and he went forth and sought for a midwife of the Hebrews in the country of Bethlehem.

2 Now I Joseph was walking, and I walked not. And I looked up to the air and saw the air in amazement. And I looked up unto the pole of the heaven and saw it standing still, and the fowls of the heaven without motion. And I looked upon the earth and saw a dish set, and workmen lying by it, and their hands were in the dish: and they that were chewing chewed not, and they that were lifting the food lifted it not, and they that put it to their mouth put it not thereto, but the faces of all of them were looking upward. And behold there were sheep being driven, and they went not forward but stood still; and the shepherd lifted his hand to smite them with his staff, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the stream of the river and saw the mouths of the kids upon the water and they drank not. And of a sudden all things moved onward in their course.

XIX. I And behold a woman coming down from the hillcountry, and she said to me: Man, whither goest thou ? And I said: I seek a midwife of the Hebrews. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel ? And I said unto her: Yea. And she said: And who is she that bringeth forth in the cave ? And I said: She that is betrothed unto me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was nurtured up in the temple of the Lord: and I received her to wife by lot: and she is not my wife, but she hath conception by the Holy Ghost.

And the midwife said unto him: Is this the truth? And Joseph said unto her: Come hither and see. And the midwife went with him.

2 And they stood in the place of the cave: and behold a bright cloud overshadowing the cave. And the midwife said: My soul is magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen marvellous things: for salvation is born unto Israel. And immediately the cloud withdrew itself out of the cave, and a great light appeared in the cave so that our eyes could not endure it. And by little and little that light withdrew itself until the young child appeared: and it went and took the breast of its mother Mary.

And the midwife cried aloud and said: Great unto me to-day is this day, in that ! have seen this new sight. 3 And the midwife went forth of the cave and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, a new sight have I to tell thee. A virgin hath brought forth, which her nature alloweth not. And Salome said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I make not trial and prove her nature I will not believe that a virgin hath brought forth.

Here's a link for the entire text.

The Odes of Solomon and the Ascension of Isaiah are sources in addition to the Infancy Gospel of James in regards to mariology. You can find those texts in the same site. If memory serves there is someone on this site who did a dissertation on the Infancy Gospel of James in relation to Gnosticism. If we're lucky he'll drop by and say a few things.

If you think that the text resembles anything Gnosticism, then you have a severe lack of understanding of Gnosticism. I say this as a former initiate into Gnostic studies, not to offend.

No one said the book was authoritative, that is why it is not scriptural. But it is a culmination of many early church traditions, that portions of liturgical, and patrisic works have in common with.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Also didn't St Athanasius of Alexandria say

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all. O Ark of the New] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. Should I compare you to the fertile earth and its fruits? You surpass them, for it is written: “The earth is my foostool”. But you carry within you the feet, the head, and the entire body of the perfect God.

If I say that heaven is exalted, yet it does not equal you, for it is writen: “Heaven is My throne”, while you are God’s place of repose. If I say that the angels and archangels are great — but you are greater than them all, for the angels and the archangels serve with trembling the One Who dwells in your womb, and they dare not speak in His presence, while you speak to Him freely.

If we say that the cherubim are great, you are greater than they, for the cherubim carry the throne, while you hold God in your hands. If we say that the serphim are great, you are greater than them all, for the seraphim cover their faces with their wings, unable to look upon the perfect glory, while you not only gaze upon His face but caress it and offer your breasts to His holy mouth.

As for Eve, she is the mother of the dead, “for in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive”. Eve took fruit from the tree and made her husband eat of it along with her. And so they ate of that tree of which God had told them: “The day you eat of it, you shall die”. Eve took fruit from it, ate some of it, and gave some to her husband that he might eat with her. He ate of it, and he died.

In you, instead, O wise Virgin, dwells the Son God: He, that is, Who is the tree of life. Truly He has given us His body, and we have eaten of it. That is how life came to all, and all have come to life by the mercy of God, your beloved Son. That is why your spirit is full of joy in God your Savior!"

Or was that a different Athanasius?
 
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Athanasius377

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Also didn't St Athanasius of Alexandria say

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all. O Ark of the New] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. Should I compare you to the fertile earth and its fruits? You surpass them, for it is written: “The earth is my foostool”. But you carry within you the feet, the head, and the entire body of the perfect God.

If I say that heaven is exalted, yet it does not equal you, for it is writen: “Heaven is My throne”, while you are God’s place of repose. If I say that the angels and archangels are great — but you are greater than them all, for the angels and the archangels serve with trembling the One Who dwells in your womb, and they dare not speak in His presence, while you speak to Him freely.

If we say that the cherubim are great, you are greater than they, for the cherubim carry the throne, while you hold God in your hands. If we say that the serphim are great, you are greater than them all, for the seraphim cover their faces with their wings, unable to look upon the perfect glory, while you not only gaze upon His face but caress it and offer your breasts to His holy mouth.

As for Eve, she is the mother of the dead, “for in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive”. Eve took fruit from the tree and made her husband eat of it along with her. And so they ate of that tree of which God had told them: “The day you eat of it, you shall die”. Eve took fruit from it, ate some of it, and gave some to her husband that he might eat with her. He ate of it, and he died.

In you, instead, O wise Virgin, dwells the Son God: He, that is, Who is the tree of life. Truly He has given us His body, and we have eaten of it. That is how life came to all, and all have come to life by the mercy of God, your beloved Son. That is why your spirit is full of joy in God your Savior!"

Or was that a different Athanasius?


In what way was is this relevant? Did I deny anything Athanasius said?
 
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