That may be the only way what you think I'm saying works, but what I actually said, as evidenced by the words themselves, had nothing to do with that and you seem to be totally unable to accurately mirror what I've said.Well, that's the only way your contention works.
I don't recall in Joseph's dream a woman about to give birth to a child with a dragon waiting to eat it...
Obviously the 12 stars represent Israel, but please do try to explain how the woman isn't Mary, the child Christ, and the dragon Satan trying to destroy Christ.
Actually we don't know whether it was written by James or not, only that it is unlikely. However the church still considers it authoiritative based on the fact that is was accepted as a recording of the already established oral traditions. When the apostles wrote the Gospels, they went around and asked people who knew Christ for their accounts of him. That is why we have stories about Christ which the apostles never witnessed. It is the same with the protoevangelicon. Sure we might not know who wrote it (just like Hebrews), we can still call it reliable as the early church did.
You mean the old testament prophesies about the coming of Christ through a Virgin?
No. We are all sinners because we inherited it.
The book I read on the "infancy" said that when Jesus was a boy, he pushed another boy off a root and the kid died, and Jesus raised Him from the dead. That just couldn't have happened.
We need to be perfectly clear about something. Sinlessness as defined in "immaculate conception" is not the same as practical righteousness and holiness. There is no question that Mary and Joseph were very righteous, and blameless as far as the Law was concerned. But since they were human like us (and unlike Christ) they could not escape the inherent sin nature inherited from Adam (Rom 5:12).
What the RCC teaches is that Mary was an exception to all of humanity, and that is not what Scripture says. Mary herself acknowledged that she needed a Savior.
CCC makes the point very clearly. Thanks.That may be the only way what you think I'm saying works, but what I actually said, as evidenced by the words themselves, had nothing to do with that and you seem to be totally unable to accurately mirror what I've said.
I'm leaving for a camping trip early tomorrow, and need to pack. I suggest you read the relevant encyclical very carefully, and make sure to not substitute your own words for what it actually says. There isn't a single hint of anything about Mary had to be sinless in order to bear a sinless child.
Have a blessed Memorial Day weekend.
No, that part is revealed in the New Testament. If you recall, Jesus is pretty much concealed in the Old Testament, but we can see what symbolized Jesus, like in the temple, and ceremonial things, because we are on the other side of His birth.
That, but not in Revelation, but the gospels and epistles. I mean like the dreams in Daniel of all the beasts, and the Image of Nebuchadnezzar, etc. And in Joel about the coming of the Holy Spirit. Some people stay away from the Old Testament, but it is very necessary to fully understand the fulfillment of prophecies.
Look up the protoevangelicon of James. It's a complication of early church teachings on Mary's Childhood and betrothal that dates about 120ad
I have scriptural authority.
What do you have?
To ensure the success of this mission, Christ gave his Church the ability to teach, govern and sanctify with Christ’s own authority. The Apostles appointed successors to ensure that the Gospel would continue to be handed on faithfully as “the lasting source of all life for the Church” (Vatican II, “Lumen Gentium” 20; also Catechism #860).
Mankind, yes. Christians, no. Do you believe 1 John 3:5-9 or not?
Which I might add was condemned by various councils and in the West by Pope Innocent I. I can't say anything about the East as that it is not my area. The date is probably at least a generation or two after the final expulsion of the Jews from Judea in the second century given the limited knowledge of names, places etc. I highly doubt it comes from the early second century. Furthermore it describes the birth of the Lord as being beamed out of Mary's womb Star Trek style. This is to preserve certain bodily. . . shall we say, structures from being torn. Being structurally intact is what the work means by ever virgin which is a Gnostic idea. The work is likely Gnostic in origin as its theology is a mess. From the M.R. James translation of the Infancy Gospel of James:
XVIII. I And he found a cave there and brought her into it, and set his sons by her: and he went forth and sought for a midwife of the Hebrews in the country of Bethlehem.
2 Now I Joseph was walking, and I walked not. And I looked up to the air and saw the air in amazement. And I looked up unto the pole of the heaven and saw it standing still, and the fowls of the heaven without motion. And I looked upon the earth and saw a dish set, and workmen lying by it, and their hands were in the dish: and they that were chewing chewed not, and they that were lifting the food lifted it not, and they that put it to their mouth put it not thereto, but the faces of all of them were looking upward. And behold there were sheep being driven, and they went not forward but stood still; and the shepherd lifted his hand to smite them with his staff, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the stream of the river and saw the mouths of the kids upon the water and they drank not. And of a sudden all things moved onward in their course.
XIX. I And behold a woman coming down from the hillcountry, and she said to me: Man, whither goest thou ? And I said: I seek a midwife of the Hebrews. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel ? And I said unto her: Yea. And she said: And who is she that bringeth forth in the cave ? And I said: She that is betrothed unto me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was nurtured up in the temple of the Lord: and I received her to wife by lot: and she is not my wife, but she hath conception by the Holy Ghost.
And the midwife said unto him: Is this the truth? And Joseph said unto her: Come hither and see. And the midwife went with him.
2 And they stood in the place of the cave: and behold a bright cloud overshadowing the cave. And the midwife said: My soul is magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen marvellous things: for salvation is born unto Israel. And immediately the cloud withdrew itself out of the cave, and a great light appeared in the cave so that our eyes could not endure it. And by little and little that light withdrew itself until the young child appeared: and it went and took the breast of its mother Mary.
And the midwife cried aloud and said: Great unto me to-day is this day, in that ! have seen this new sight. 3 And the midwife went forth of the cave and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, a new sight have I to tell thee. A virgin hath brought forth, which her nature alloweth not. And Salome said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I make not trial and prove her nature I will not believe that a virgin hath brought forth.
Here's a link for the entire text.
The Odes of Solomon and the Ascension of Isaiah are sources in addition to the Infancy Gospel of James in regards to mariology. You can find those texts in the same site. If memory serves there is someone on this site who did a dissertation on the Infancy Gospel of James in relation to Gnosticism. If we're lucky he'll drop by and say a few things.
Also didn't St Athanasius of Alexandria say
"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all. O Ark of the New] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. Should I compare you to the fertile earth and its fruits? You surpass them, for it is written: “The earth is my foostool”. But you carry within you the feet, the head, and the entire body of the perfect God.
If I say that heaven is exalted, yet it does not equal you, for it is writen: “Heaven is My throne”, while you are God’s place of repose. If I say that the angels and archangels are great — but you are greater than them all, for the angels and the archangels serve with trembling the One Who dwells in your womb, and they dare not speak in His presence, while you speak to Him freely.
If we say that the cherubim are great, you are greater than they, for the cherubim carry the throne, while you hold God in your hands. If we say that the serphim are great, you are greater than them all, for the seraphim cover their faces with their wings, unable to look upon the perfect glory, while you not only gaze upon His face but caress it and offer your breasts to His holy mouth.
As for Eve, she is the mother of the dead, “for in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive”. Eve took fruit from the tree and made her husband eat of it along with her. And so they ate of that tree of which God had told them: “The day you eat of it, you shall die”. Eve took fruit from it, ate some of it, and gave some to her husband that he might eat with her. He ate of it, and he died.
In you, instead, O wise Virgin, dwells the Son God: He, that is, Who is the tree of life. Truly He has given us His body, and we have eaten of it. That is how life came to all, and all have come to life by the mercy of God, your beloved Son. That is why your spirit is full of joy in God your Savior!"
Or was that a different Athanasius?