What is Man and Where Does He Go?

People who die in the Lord go to be where Christ is, and right now Christ is in heaven.
And Christ brings BACK with Him those who die in the Lord at His return, so they are not sleeping in the dirt, they are conscious in heaven with Him.

But yes, we get to inherit the earth at Christ's return, Daniel 7 also says this, we inherit the greatness of the kingdoms of the earth. At the 'rapture' which occurs at the second coming return of Christ, we who are alive and remain (until his return on the earth, remain alive) we meet with Christ in the air, as He is descending to this earth to rule with His saints, we all come right back to earth.

And Christ also comes with His saints as Enoch and Jude say. Christ is coming from the Father. eventually even God dwells with men on the new earth He makes again, will be a wonderful time.


Jude 14-15 New King James Version (NKJV)

Jude 14-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

And Christ gathers from 2 places at His return at the end of the great tribulation, form the four winds, of the earth, and from all of heaven, the departed saints.

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All this agrees with Paul and the coming of the Lord in 1 thessalonians 4
Their is no 'soul sleep', those who sleep in Christ, is referring to the body only.
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus. (died)

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

As Christ spoke of Lazarus and sleep, He was going to go and wake Lazarus up,which confuses the disciples after which Christ has to plainly tell them Lazarus is DEAD.

John 11:10-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

And if all that is not enough, absent from the body means PRESENT with the Lord, clothed with our habitation which is from heaven. Unless you think we are laid out in heaven in a comatose state!, how absurd...


2 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 For we know that if our earthly [a]house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Part 1:

1. The Lexical shuffle. Not one word means the same in every passage. Context is critical. To apply one meaning to a Hebrew or Greek word from one verse to the remainder of Scriptures will make other passages incomprehensible or at the very least awkward. We must apply exegesis to each verse or passage.


To imply or demand a particular word must apply the same meaning in all places, is a sure fire attempt at creating a pretext instead of looking at the context. The usual attempt is to make words mean what we want by making liberal use of the lexicon to fit a specific ideology or theological position.


For example, even though there is no shift in the subject or context of John 1:1, a Jehovah's Witness will demand "theos" only applies to God the Father when the apostle says "is God" clearly referring to the Logos. Even though the Logos, God the Son, is the subject and directly related to theos. The reasoning behind this is because JW doctrine demands that Jesus is not God but "a god." Now JW doctrine is not the subject, but the aforementioned is an example of the lexical shuffle used to make doctrines fit the words, instead of relying on the merits of exegesis to lead us to what the text actually reveals. The JW position is what we would call eisegesis. Meaning, coming to Scriptures with a predetermined view on something and then reading that idea into the text. As opposed to exegesis which draws the truth out of the text.

With that let’s visit "soul" and "spirit" as the Hebrews would understand it.

2. Made in the Image and Likeness of God

The OP argues that soul means the body and the actual breath or air which sustains us as actually being alive. That when we die taking our last breath of oxygen we, meaning what makes us "us" ceases to exist as without this breath we are dead. Our bodies turn to worm food and the impersonal 'breath' which gave our bodies life goes back to God who gave it. For example, I assume room temperature, meaning I die, my body is buried and nothing of my inner man (2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 7:22–23) is left but dust in a grave. There is no immaterial soul or spirit (us) which departs to be present with the Lord awaiting the resurrection and our immortal bodies. We just die and cease to exist except for dust in the ground. This is the position of the OP.


He banks his entire argument on Genesis 2:7 where we see Adam created and then God puts the breath of life in him. The OP then uses his determination of that verse to interpret the remainder of the Bible. Let's look at Genesis 2:7 (I’ll be using the NASB):




The NASB which is a literal word for word translation of the Hebrew uses “living being” instead of the KJV “soul.” This is rightfully rendered in my observation as what is being communicated in verse 7 is the creation of the first human, Adam, and YHWH is communicating that just like all other living creatures this man was a carbon based life form from the very elements He created…the dust of the earth. Yet the detail here is that unlike the beasts of the land and the birds of the air, YHWH is personally blowing His breath, wind, essence into Adam which we do not see elsewhere (Genesis 1).


There is something special, something divine going on here. Genesis chapter 2 does not tell us much of what this ‘breath of life’ actually entails. Are we to assume as the OP suggests that is just God giving Adam a dose of oxygen to get his lungs and circulatory system going? Perhaps that may be the case as a secondary effect, however, much more is going on here. Like the New Birth, there is a supernatural aspect going on here. Why? Because YHWH is the actor, He is giving this ‘breath of life.” We only need to go to Genesis chapter one to see what is going on and ‘what’ makes this unique creation, man, so special apart from all other created beings.

On Day 6 of creation we have the following:



This is truly astounding no matter how many times over the years of my life since my mother reading it to me as a young child. Truly amazing, God made mankind, male and female, in His image according to His likeness! Since we know YHWH was not created from the dust of the ground, and He is not subject to our need for oxygen to breathe in the Heavenlies, what then did YHWH bestow upon His creation man and woman? What attributes have been revealed about God which we can link to this wonderful passage of Genesis 1:26-27? I believe, Jesus Christ the Logos, Son of the living God, God the Son has the answer:



God is spirit. Clearly taught above by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are made in the image and according to the likeness of God who is not a body of flesh (until the Incarnation of the Son) nor requires elements of His own Creation to survive, therefore we too have spirits or more concretely compared to our material bodies we have an immaterial life or being. Was this concept alien to the Hebrews of the Old Testament? Absolutely not. One can rightly argue the Hebrews did not have a developed concept of ‘soul’ as did the later Greeks and Romans, and English translators have overused ‘soul’ in translations where it could mean: living being, life, breath, emotions, mind, life, etc. (nephesh).


This is where theology by lexical shuffle fails and the merits of word studies are limited. This is why when the OP is presented with passages and verses supporting an immaterial inner person or being, he immediately dismisses the verses or said passages because they do not fit his own wooden one definition of ‘soul’ or ‘living being’ in Genesis 2:7. The OP essentially uses Genesis 2:7 as the “Rosetta Stone” for the remainder of the OT and NT. What is warranted is an expository examination of what the Bible teaches comprehensively.


Back to the Hebrews and what did they think in the OT. Next post in Part 2 as there are limits to characters on this site.

Part 2:

3. Soul, the Hebrews and the Inner man





As clearly delineated above from Vines, the Hebrews did have a concept of and ‘outer appearance/outer person’ (shem) and an ‘inner self’ (nepesh). This will prove to be important in the upcoming segment to refute the notion that the NT writers were either skewed with the influence of Greek philosophy and/or the Koine Greek itself was unsuitable to transliterate this Hebrew concept. The apostles were Hebrews and rooted in the understanding of the Old Testament (OT) word meanings and concepts. The inner self vs. outer person was used often by the apostle Paul in his epistles (more later). Therefore, we can at the very minimum look to the Hebrews of the OT and early church having a dichotomist view of the nature of mankind. A material outer person and immaterial inner person or self.


What is the dichotomist view?



4. What is the teaching from the New Testament?

As we can see from the cited Scriptures above both Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul knew and taught the Hebrew concept of the outer material person and immaterial inner self. If the above is not convincing and one wants to look for ‘key words’ used we only need to examine the epistles of the apostle Paul who was “circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee…(Philippians 3:5):




Note, what is very important is Paul’s use of the ‘outer’ and ‘inner’ man above leads into 2 Corinthians 5:1-10:



The above was necessary to note as Paul was writing the epistle there were no verses or chapter numbers. The conversation flowed and we must take 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 in light of 2 Corinthians 4:16-17). Back to passages on the ‘inner man.’



In the passages above Paul is clearly demonstrating his knowledge of the Hebrew understanding of “outer man” and “inner man.” He is communicating this to both a Jewish and Gentile audience. To dispel the notion that Paul is leaning on Greek philosophy, the Greeks rejected the notion of a bodily resurrection of the dead. It was an alien concept to them and why some scoffed at Paul in Acts 17. However, how did we get to a basic Hebrew concept of inner self and outer self and the teachings of the apostle Paul cited above? Progressive revelation:




In summary, I briefly addressed above (1) the lexical difficulties of the OT as they relate to soul or living being and how using a lexicon is not a ‘one size fits all’ and that exegesis and by extension expository are necessary to understand what God is communicating; (2) addressed what it means to be made in the image and according to the likeness of God, which makes us spiritual beings along with our temporal corporeal bodies; (3) addressed the Hebrew concept or understanding of an outer identity or person (shem) and an inner person (nepesh) and (4) addressed through progressive revelation the teachings Jesus and Paul on the body and soul (inner man) and as such these concepts were neither machinations of Greek influence in the early church or a failure of the Koine Greek to provide the necessary concepts or words. Lastly, I briefly addressed the intermediate state of our "inner man" within #3 and #4 with quoted Scriptures from the NT. This can be further expanded upon if anyone is interested as well as other sources provided.

redleghunter said:

Part 1:
1. The Lexical shuffle. Not one word means the same in every passage. Context is critical. To apply one meaning to a Hebrew or Greek word from one verse to the remainder of Scriptures will make other passages incomprehensible or at the very least awkward. We must apply exegesis to each verse or passage.

To imply or demand a particular word must apply the same meaning in all places, is a sure fire attempt at creating a pretext instead of looking at the context. The usual attempt is to make words mean what we want by making liberal use of the lexicon to fit a specific ideology or theological position.

For example, even though there is no shift in the subject or context of John 1:1, a Jehovah's Witness will demand "theos" only applies to God the Father when the apostle says "is God" clearly referring to the Logos. Even though the Logos, God the Son, is the subject and directly related to theos. The reasoning behind this is because JW doctrine demands that Jesus is not God but "a god." Now JW doctrine is not the subject, but the aforementioned is an example of the lexical shuffle used to make doctrines fit the words, instead of relying on the merits of exegesis to lead us to what the text actually reveals. The JW position is what we would call eisegesis. Meaning, coming to Scriptures with a predetermined view on something and then reading that idea into the text. As opposed to exegesis which draws the truth out of the text.

Click to expand...

I'm just curious if another term for lexical shuffle is called the "root word fallacy", or if there is a difference? I remember having to plow through this fallacy roughly seventeen years ago in a NT interpretation course using a book by Robert Stein and a book by D.A. Carson. It does get a bit frustrating, especially when a person like me, knows so little of the original languages, much more the breadth of meanings behind terms. Overwhelming sometimes, but is what it is.

Hebrews 12, tells us that for those who are born of God, so the saved people, they have come to
the city of the Living God, they are not unconsciously sleeping awaiting the resurrection of the body. The body sleeps, not the spirit. But they are not a part yet of the age of the resurrection, which happens at the return of Christ, recall it is when the dead in Christ rise.

They are spirit and alive to God, and PERFECTED SPIRITUALLY, there is no further improvement t be made in the spirit of those born again, as they are in fellowship with God and He even indwells their spirit.
as it says in v23
"to the spirits of just men made perfect, " The new creation is a perfect work having the everlasting eternal life right now as God has, and God is alive inside them.

But the mind and the flesh has yet to be redeemed and perfected which will happen when we are finally reunited with a glorified, perfected body. Focus on the spirit of a man as being what is saved, being created a living being is the new spirit God creates inside of you, and view the soul as the mind, more a part of the flesh. Our spirit being perfected is in spiritual communication with the Father, and He teaches our spirit, reveals spiritual things to our spirits, but the mind can dwell on the things of the flesh, so has to be reoriented back to spiritual things, the set your mind on things above idea, not on the things of this world.
Our spirit is LOCKED together with His Holy Spirit, never to be parted. and I find that amazingly wonderful and a deep truth. As scripture says we are ONE SPIRIT WITH HIM, not one soul.
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

1 Corinthians 2:6
[ Spiritual Wisdom ] However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

1 Corinthians 2:13
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Hebrews 12
18 For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

I'm just curious if another term for lexical shuffle is called the "root word fallacy", or if there is a difference?

Click to expand...

One in the same. I've seen the annihilationists and universalists use the same word play.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

It does get a bit frustrating, especially when a person like me, knows so little of the original languages, much more the breadth of meanings behind terms. Overwhelming sometimes, but is what it is.

Click to expand...

Understand as to do a word study trying to follow whether one is actually a Greek scholar or not or just using some internet source which usually has an anonymous source. Meaning you don't know who you are dealing with or their education level. Here's a good example of a person promoting a root word study running into a Hebrew and Greek language scholar:

What Was God’s Intention For The Atonement?

sdowney717 said:

Hebrews 12, tells us that for those who are born of God, so the saved people, they have come to
the city of the Living God, they are not unconsciously sleeping awaiting the resurrection of the body. The body sleeps, not the spirit. But they are not a part yet of the age of the resurrection, which happens at the return of Christ, recall it is when the dead in Christ rise.

They are spirit and alive to God, and PERFECTED SPIRITUALLY, there is no further improvement t be made in the spirit of those born again, as they are in fellowship with God and He even indwells their spirit.
as it says in v23
"to the spirits of just men made perfect, " The new creation is a perfect work having the everlasting eternal life right now as God has, and God is alive inside them.

But the mind and the flesh has yet to be redeemed and perfected which will happen when we are finally reunited with a glorified, perfected body. Focus on the spirit of a man as being what is saved, being created a living being is the new spirit God creates inside of you, and view the soul as the mind, more a part of the flesh. Our spirit being perfected is in spiritual communication with the Father, and He teaches our spirit, reveals spiritual things to our spirits, but the mind can dwell on the things of the flesh, so has to be reoriented back to spiritual things, the set your mind on things above idea, not on the things of this world.
Our spirit is LOCKED together with His Holy Spirit, never to be parted. and I find that amazingly wonderful and a deep truth. As scripture says we are ONE SPIRIT WITH HIM, not one soul.
1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

1 Corinthians 2:6
[ Spiritual Wisdom ] However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

1 Corinthians 2:13
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Hebrews 12
18 For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Click to expand...

For a good pastoral answer to the issue at hand:

Does My Soul Sleep After Death?

redleghunter said:

For a good pastoral answer to the issue at hand:

Does My Soul Sleep After Death?

Click to expand...

If we alive to God in the Spirit right now and joined to the Lord as one spirit with Him, then so shall we ever be with the Lord, wherever He is, we shall be also, and we shall also be like Him, and He is not sleeping, and we are certainly not asleep awaiting the resurrection. When Jesus raised the dead, he said they were sleeping, not dead and some would mock Him. Perhaps Lazarus was having a great time in Paradise with Abraham and all the prophets of God and Christ cried that He had to bring Lazarus back to this life.
The JW also do not believe that story of the rich man and Lazarus as having any reality. As it points out they are consciously awake after their bodily deaths.

And we also read of the transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah appear and talk with Christ, they were not yet resurrected, and they were not sleeping, even Peter witnessed that.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

I'm just curious if another term for lexical shuffle is called the "root word fallacy", or if there is a difference? I remember having to plow through this fallacy roughly seventeen years ago in a NT interpretation course using a book by Robert Stein and a book by D.A. Carson. It does get a bit frustrating, especially when a person like me, knows so little of the original languages, much more the breadth of meanings behind terms. Overwhelming sometimes, but is what it is.

Click to expand...

Yea I've ran into that, bara is the word used for Creation in Genesis 1. The unused root means to cut, which is pretty consistent with the way it's used in Genesis 1. The Qal form is always and only used for God, that much is inescapable. Yet it goes unaddressed with so many theistic evolutionists, so yea, I've dealt with that before.

Grace and peace,
Mark

redleghunter said:

There is something special, something divine going on here. Genesis chapter 2 does not tell us much of what this ‘breath of life’ actually entails. Are we to assume as the OP suggests that is just God giving Adam a dose of oxygen to get his lungs and circulatory system going? Perhaps that may be the case as a secondary effect, however, much more is going on here. Like the New Birth, there is a supernatural aspect going on here. Why? Because YHWH is the actor, He is giving this ‘breath of life.” We only need to go to Genesis chapter one to see what is going on and ‘what’ makes this unique creation, man, so special apart from all other created beings.

On Day 6 of creation we have the following:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:26-27 NASB)​

Click to expand...

The term 'bara' us used five times in the text, three times in that verse. It's called a parallelism, the ancient Hebrews used those for emphasis. The text is emphasizing that Adam were created, there is no escaping that in the language. Some 400 times Adam is used in the OT synonymously with humanity. There is a reason for that, it's the same reason that Israel is used synonymously with the nation that descended from him.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Butch5 said:

I think it's obvious that you didn't study those words through the Bible in that short a period of time.

Click to expand...

On the contrary. I've looked at claims that folks like you have made for years. So what are you? A Jehovah Witness or something of the like?

[COLOR=#000000]Butch5 said:

It doesn't m[/COLOR]atter if you buy it, it's what the words mean.

Click to expand...

So says you.

Butch5 said:

The passages that you presented don't say that man can live apart from the body. That tells me that you're presupposing that man can live apart from the body.

Click to expand...

Nope I'd have to say that you're the one way out there on a limb. I just merely quoted the scripture that Samuel did have a conversation with King Saul and it gives his actual words and he certainly was not in his physical body. 1 Sam 28: 7 Also with Jesus it states that he had a conversation with Moses and Elijah Matt 17:3 and you'd claim it's not true?
And if "spirit" is just "breath" and it's the only thing it can mean then how about Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul [the breath??] the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple" God needs to convert our breath? I hardly think so. He converts our spirits to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Butch5 said:

This thread is continued from another that asked how God made people ready for Heaven. In that thread it was my contention that man is a physical, not spiritual, being. For that claim I turn to Genesis 2:7 where Moses records how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Click to expand...

Of course man is a spiritual being. Perhaps you should learn what God breathed into man's nostrils. That word 'breath' means 'spirit'.

Pro 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Isa 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

As James said, the body without the SPIRIT is dead.

sdowney717 said:

And if all that is not enough, absent from the body means PRESENT with the Lord, clothed with our habitation which is from heaven. Unless you think we are laid out in heaven in a comatose state!, how absurd...

Click to expand...

I agree with you here. Butch makes paradise a graveyard.

Since, then, it is man's mind and not his body that thinks (and it thinks from the delight of its affection), and since man's mind is his spirit, which lives after death, it follows that man's spirit is nothing but affection and the thought therefrom.

Butch5 said:

The word spirit is a metaphorical use of the word breath. If you read what I posted you'd know that I said that the breath or spirit in man is God's. It is the breath or spirit of life. It was breathed out of God and into. However, it is not man. Genesis 2:7 states plainly that man was created from the of the earth. Man was created and existed before God breathed into him. Thus man is not a spiritual being. He was not alive until God breathed into him the breath or spirit of life. it was then that the transformation took place and man became a living soul.

Click to expand...

Butch, everything man has is God's. Man is a recipient of life from God.

Every man's spirit is affection and thought therefrom; and as every affection is from the love and every thought is from the understanding, every spirit is his own love, and his own understanding therefrom. For this reason, when a man is thinking solely from his own spirit, which he does when meditating at home by himself, he thinks from the affection which belongs to his love.

From this it is clear that when a man becomes a spirit, as he does after death, he is an affection of his own love, and is no other thought than what belongs to his affection. He is an evil affection, which is a lust, if his love has been a love of evil; and he is a good affection if his love has been a love of good; and every one has a good affection so far as he has shunned evils as sins; and every one has an evil affection so far as he has not so shunned them.