Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2018

MDC said:
Sure it is. This is what you do to justify that salvation is based on mans works. To call a sinner to fully rest in Christ and seek His mercy for forgiveness is lying? The shame is your doctrine of works

Please explain how the following verses are not describing loss of salvation for not producing fruit and repenting of sin.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 21:27

For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.

1 Corinthians 4:20

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Ephesians 5:3-6

But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

Matthew 13:37-43

A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:45-51

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:7-8

Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 18:3-10

Doug Melven · May 22, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Why am I not afraid of OSNAS and you are?
Why is it so important for you to believe you can never be lost?

Because I have a pretty good idea just how holy God is.
And I also know that I don't even come close to the standard that Jesus set.
Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself.
Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
To him that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin.
And I don't always have perfect peace, and I would if my mind was stayed on Him all the time.

I see the holiness of God and all I can say is"Woe is me, I am undone".
I thank God that He is El,Nasa, the God who forgives. Psalm 99:8

GodsGrace101 said:
BTW, where did I say we're in charge of our salvation?
I said
Jesus saves us
We follow His directives.

As soon as you say that salvation can be lost. That means unless you do something your salvation will be lost.
Essentially putting you in charge.

GodsGrace101 said:
Oh. That's right. YOU don't like to follow His directives.
That must be why you have to cling so tightly to OSAS.
Otherwise you would NOT feel secure.
Yes. That's the ticket.

Please see the forum rules on flaming and goading. This is not allowed.

Doug Melven · May 22, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

Not talking about eternal life. This is a reference to this life and bearing fruit.

BNR32FAN said:
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

This passage is not talking about not inheriting salvation.
If it was that would be salvation by works.

BNR32FAN said:
Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Children of God are not evil. Nor can they become evil, because we are not defined by what we do. We are defined by who our Father is.

BNR32FAN said:
For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.

Okay. I do not see how this verse salvation can be lost.

BNR32FAN said:
Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

BNR32FAN said:
But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Do you believe that we can be saved by giving people a cup of cold water in Jesus name, visiting those who are sick and in prison, and feeding and clothing those in need?
What happened to being saved by grace through faith?

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

BNR32FAN said:
A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

BNR32FAN said:
All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Again, children of God are not defined by there actions, but by who there Father is.

BNR32FAN said:
Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Totally agree with this. What does it have to do with losing salvation?
Unless you believe we are saved by our works.

BNR32FAN · May 22, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Not talking about eternal life. This is a reference to this life and bearing fruit.

Actually it is talking about both eternal life and eternal damnation. You either have one or the other. There is no in between. Brother do you not realize that we are the branches? So what happens when we are cut off from Christ? We will lose our salvation if we are cut off from Christ.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit.

If Christ is in us we will produce much fruit. So what if we don’t produce fruit? Then we are cut off.

Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit.

If we are cut off from Christ or if we don’t remain in Him we will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

So if we don’t produce fruit we will be cut off because we have not remained in Christ we will be thrown into the lake of fire.

You skipped this one.

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

Does every tree not include believers? If believers don’t produce fruit they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Doug Melven said:
This passage is not talking about not inheriting salvation.
If it was that would be salvation by works.

This passage is about repentance. If we do not repent of sin we will not inherit the kingdom of God. If we don’t inherit the kingdom of God we are thrown into the lake of fire.

Doug Melven said:
Children of God are not evil. Nor can they become evil, because we are not defined by what we do. We are defined by who our Father is.

We are not defined by what we do? Jesus says this.

“Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:20

Doug Melven said:
Do you believe that we can be saved by giving people a cup of cold water in Jesus name, visiting those who are sick and in prison, and feeding and clothing those in need?
What happened to being saved by grace through faith?

Do I believe people can be saved by giving people a cup of cold water? Well I believe they can be condemned to the lake of fire for not giving a cup of cold water. Unless you don’t believe what Jesus said. But the sad thing is you do understand what He said. You just care more about being right than speaking the truth. There’s no way that you didn’t understand any of these passages. But that’s ok at least other people can see your point of view contradicts these scriptures and your agenda. You will twist all these scriptures to fit your beliefs but anyone who is truly seeking the truth will see thru your shallow answers and will not be misled. That’s my goal. Because you are obviously blinded by your own pride and arrogance to see the truth even when it’s right in front of you from The Savior Himself. You do realize that Jesus knows that you understand this don’t you?

Doug Melven said:
Again, children of God are not defined by there actions, but by who there Father is

Been there done that.

Doug Melven said:
Totally agree with this. What does it have to do with losing salvation?
Unless you believe we are saved by our works

Good I’m glad you totally agree that not only faith is required for salvation but also repentance of sin. Your halfway there. Now if you would only realize that you must produce fruit and you must keep on repenting and producing fruit then you will have a chance to be saved. I say have a chance because knowing and doing are two different things. Knowing and not doing will lead to the lake of fire.

Doug Melven · May 22, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Actually it is talking about both eternal life and eternal damnation. You either have one or the other. There is no in between. Brother do you not realize that we are the branches? So what happens when we are cut off from Christ? We will lose our salvation if we are cut off from Christ.

We are heirs of God and so-heirs with Christ.
Being cut off from Christ means we are cut off from being co-heirs with Christ.
We are still heirs of God.
Like I said, not talking about our salvation.
2 Samuel 14:14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

LoveofTruth · May 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
Does this require our effort?

I see the labour there as to cease from our own works and walk in faith . But this trust in God's work in our heart and His work on the cross is not easy for the flesh.

But to abide in faith does not mean for a moment that we do not need to follow the Lord where he leads and to yield to the Spirit. We must yield to the Spirit and not to the flesh. Daily we die and the old man is not having dominion over us as we live in the new man. In this spiritual life we can manifest the life of Christ in our mortal bodies ( 2 Cor 4:10,11).

The effort to die to the flesh cannot be done in the flesh.

We cannot put to death the flesh by the flesh. It is a circumcision of the heart and to be crucified with Christ and risen with him. This is the power of the gospel as it relates to us. This is a deep inward reality to those who have been baptized into Christ and put on Christ. They that are Christ have crucified the flesh with its affections and lust and they do not live after the flesh and yield to it (as we abide in Christ through faith and continue in his word and commands in our heart). He that has suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

By the power of the Spirit, we mortify the deeds of the body and walk in the spirit. yes we do live and move and have activity in the flesh, but we do not yield to it and obey it. We have crucified the flesh as we are born anew in Christ.

I admit this is a very deep understanding, how the inward man is empowered and what relation God has working in us with our new man. But I do seek daily to live and understand this more to have the fellowship of his sufferings and to be perfect in Christ as he makes me perfect.

God comforts us in our daily afflictions and cross and we are risen with him to the newness of life. We have the comforter, the love of God shed abroad in our hearts the word sown, fellowship with God and the body of believers and edification from Christ through the body and many other spiritual blessings in Christ. He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

LoveofTruth · May 23, 2018

MDC said:
Your whole doctrine lacks faith in Christ. Therefore all you do is sin. John 15:5 proves salvation is monergistic.

What? Absolutely wrong.

I teach and have always taught that all believers are only able to have Christ dwell (abide, continue) in their heart by faith and continual believe daily unto the end. If they continue in the faith that is ( not works of the flesh or the law to be saved) If we abide not we are cast forth as a branch and withered. John 15 is clearly about someone who abides in Christ and has his life flowing through him as a branch connected to the vine and those who abide not ( or remain and continue not as the Greek word means) and then ware "without Christ" and withered and cut off and cast into the fire (of hell and lake of fire one day).

If a tree bears no fruit it is not a good tree and cut off. Fruit bearing is the evidence of abiding in Christ and walking in the Spirit and yielding to eh Spirit. If a person doesn't have some fruit he is in the flesh and not abiding in Christ.

MDC said:
"And the fruit that it bears is of God and He alone in Christ..

In Christ all believers are still existant as a new creation, we are not God or one big God together. We are distinct new creations and we are fellow labourers with God.

1 Corinthians 3:9
"For we are labourers together with God:.."

The fruit that a person bears is worked by God and Christ in them.(John 15:1-14 KJV, Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV etc etc etc) But the fruit of the spirit is manifest as we live and move in Christ and they see our good works and glorify our Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven

Jesus calls them "your good works" though they are properly worked by God in our new man. But they are still connected to believers. We don't do these works to save ourself, but we will not be in that salvation unless these works manifest in some way through faith.As James says

"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."(James 2:17,18 KJV)

Shewing faith is the issue. As we die daily and bear about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus the life also is made manifest in our mortal flesh and bodies ( 2 Cor 4:10,11 KJV) God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work.

Are God's works needful for salvation? Do we need to abide in such work? Is God's work on the cross and His work in all believers beginning at the new birth needful for salvation? if so what if a believer hardens through sin and has an evil heart of unbelief and departs form the living God? how can he then say he has faith. He will also have no works, or rather no God working in him and only have dead works and flesh and works of the law.

Christ dwells in the heart by faith. If we do not continue in the faith and his word then Christ no longer abides in us.

John 15 is clearly about a saved person abiding in Christ and bearing fruit as he does and another who abides not and bears no fruit and is withered and cut off.

MDC said:
But yet you think this proves that man must maintain good works to stay saved.

I never said he must remain in works of the law, or works of the flesh and old man. But I have said he must abide in Christ work in him as a branch cannot live except it abide in the vine.The works believers abide in are God's works in them. as scripture clearly shows and as is often not considered in this discussion. These verses touch on this and why such works are needful.

"20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."(Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV)

"12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."(Philippians 2:12,13 KJV)

We see that such work of God and our abiding in him and working in the new man is needful for our salvation. This is only done through faith For only in faith will Christ abide in us , or dwell in us

Ephesians 3:17 KJV
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

and only in faith can we overcome the world, for only as Christ dwells in our heart can we live in him and do all things. Our new man can do all things in the power of the Spirit. IF we yield to the Spirit and not to the flesh.

Romans 8:13 KJV
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

"4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1 John 5:4,5 KJV)

Revelation 2:7 KJV
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Revelation 2:26 KJV
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nation"

Revelation 3:5 KJV
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Revelation 3:12 KJV
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Revelation 3:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Revelation 21:7
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

2 Peter 2:19 KJV
"...for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

Romans 12:21 KJV
"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

2 Peter 2:20 KJV
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

MDC said:
No! It is mere fruit, and all elect believers bear it, some 30 fold some 60 fold and so on. So the elect are secure in Christ.

You use the expresion "mere fruit". But Jesus says we can know a tree by its fruit

Matthew 7:18 KJV

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

Matthew 7:19, 20 KJV
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Luke 13:9
"And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned... 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

MDC said:
That’s the gospel you don’t believe in

I believe this gospel and there is a condition attached to it as Paul clearly said

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [notice the "if ye keep in memory part] 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"(1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Bible2+ · May 23, 2018

bcbsr said in post #1530:

[Re: A believer not producing good fruit or repentance]

Doesn't happen.

It does.

For note that John 15:2a refers to Christians, who are branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

*******

bcbsr said in post #1531:

A person is saved by faith apart from works

Initially (Ephesians 2:8-9), but not ultimately (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24).

Bible2+ · May 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1537:

It is our physical body where SIN lives.

Not true, by itself. Otherwise, Jesus would have sin, for He is in a physical body (Luke 24:39). But He has no sin (Hebrews 4:15).

-

Also, this brings to mind that Christians really need to beware the mistaken ideas of Gnosticism (2 John 1:7).

For Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says that everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is purely spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches that all humans used to be purely spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped within fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering within fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early Church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the Church during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon), and himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 12:9).

Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with Buddhism and Hinduism:

1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says that the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, while they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

The Bible contradicts each of the four points above:

1. The material realm is real, and was created by YHWH God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God Himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39), and He remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.

2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11) into an immortal human body of flesh and bones like the immortal human body of flesh and bones which Jesus Christ obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which He will remain forever as Christians' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and at His Second Coming He will show the scars of the Crucifixion on His body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a New Earth, in the sense of a new surface for the earth, with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1537:

Where do you think sin comes from anyway?

The heart (Matthew 15:19, Jeremiah 17:9).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1538:

If there were conditions, then Jesus was REMISS and WRONG by leaving any of them out in His statement about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

No, for He expects us to know more than one verse (Matthew 4:4), just as He pointed out to Satan that the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) has a condition placed on it by the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1538:

There are no conditions because there aren't any conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

There are (e.g. Luke 13:3).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1540:

This [2 Tim. 2:12b] has nothing to do with either getting saved or staying saved.

It does, just as Matthew 7:23 does.

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1581:

Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvation, per Heb 12:2.

Hebrews 12:2a means that it is only because of Jesus Christ that Christians came to believe, and have the ability to continue to believe, to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). But Jesus does not take away Christians' free will. So it is possible for them to wrongly employ their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1596:

Please quote just one verse that says producing fruit is necessasry to get into heaven.

Matthew 7:21

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1597:

And Peter was clear about eternal security when he penned 1 Pet 1:23, which says believers have been born again of imperishable seed.

But they themselves can still perish (2 Peter 2:20-22, Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 1:10-11).

Bible2+ · May 23, 2018

Doug Melven said in post #1553:

We continue to repent after being saved, not to get or stay saved, but to become more like Christ.

Both (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #1553:

And if what you said is true, which it's not, nobody would get to golive with Jesus after death.

Not every Christian fulfills Jude 1:4.

Doug Melven said in post #1553:

He does not punish believers for there sin.

He does, if it's without repentance (Hebrews 12:5-11).

Doug Melven said in post #1553:

He is merciful to our unrighteousness and He does not impute sin to the believer.

Only so long as we repent (Luke 13:3).

Doug Melven said in post #1553:

We have a righteousness that is not our own.Philippians 3:9

In the sense that we can't be righteous on our own (John 15:5).

Indeed, it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1558:

These bodies are subject to weakness, disease and death. Jesus' body was not subject to these 3 things.

It was (Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 4:15). That's why He was able to die on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3).

Doug Melven said in post #1558:

You should really figure out why Jesus had to be born of the Holy Spirit and not man.

Both, for Mary His mother is human (Luke 1:35).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1563:

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

When the apostle Paul said: "it is no more I that do it" (Romans 7:17,20), by "I" he meant only his "inward" self (Romans 7:22), his spiritual mind (Romans 7:25,23, Ephesians 4:23). He was not denying that it was another, carnal part of himself doing it. For he admitted: "I am carnal" (Romans 7:14), and referred to the sinfulness of "my flesh" (Romans 7:18), and "my members" (Romans 7:23). And so he referred repeatedly to the sin which "I do" (Romans 7:15-16,19).

It is the same with everyone. For everyone sins only after being enticed by his "own" lust (James 1:14-15). So in Romans 7:17,20, the apostle Paul did not mean that Christians are not responsible when they commit a sin. They still have to repent after they commit a sin (2 Corinthians 12:21; 2 Corinthians 7:9, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:19, Revelation 3:3), or they will ultimately lose their salvation (1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 10:26-29).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1564:

What is the Gospel?

The Gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved from hell by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the Gospel is that we can be ultimately saved from hell if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from every sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to, and peace with, everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and do not blaspheme God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), and do not remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and do not worship the future Antichrist, or his image, or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1620:

What about a new believer who committed some sins and now thinks he has lost his salvation and becomes extremely depressed?

It is only if Christians continue in a sin without repentance until death (1 John 5:16b), or until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

Doug Melven said in post #1620:

Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him.

Only so long as they cooperate along with Him (2 Corinthians 5:9).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1623:

Children of God are not evil. Nor can they become evil, because we are not defined by what we do.

We are (1 John 3:7; 1 John 2:4).

Bible2+ · May 23, 2018

MDC said in post #1618:

It is mere fruit, and all elect believers bear it, some 30 fold some 60 fold and so on.

Note that only elect people become believers (Acts 13:48b).

Also, regarding the sower parable (Luke 8:4-15), the last three types of people all received God's Word and came into Christian faith. The one who came into faith on stony ground believed for awhile, but subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required for Christians in order for them to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).

Matthew 13:23 and Mark 4:8 mean that the thirty, sixty, and hundred-fold fruit applies only to that fruit brought forth by the Christians on good ground.

DaveM · May 23, 2018

it is sad the lack of love shown in a lot of these post,

bcbsr · May 23, 2018

zoidar said:
That passage is about that you can't work your way to salvation.

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. /James 2

James describes the relationship between faith and works pretty good. "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness". What does it mean that he believed God? It means that he trusted in God and obeyed him, was willing to sacrifice his son on the alter. So faith involves obedience. It's believing in what Jesus says and what he did for us on the cross, and to follow what he tells us to do.

Many Christians just see one side of the coin. They see trust in Jesus, but they forget about the other side that says be obedient. I think that is one reason we don't see that much of revival today. I'm sad to say that too many Christians don't live like Christians.

Paul's point in Romans 4 was that Abraham was given the promise in Gen 15:5 and having believed it in Gen 15:6 he was reckoned righteous, there being no intervening working between the two verses, which proves his point that salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

James on the other hand is wrong. He views Gen 15:6 as merely a prophecy not fullfilled until over a decade later when Abraham did a work of faith. James was wrong on many counts, such as in Acts 15 when he decreed salvation was contingent upon whether or not one ate meat of strangled animals.

BNR32FAN · May 23, 2018

Doug Melven said:
We are heirs of God and so-heirs with Christ.
Being cut off from Christ means we are cut off from being co-heirs with Christ.
We are still heirs of God.
Like I said, not talking about our salvation.
2 Samuel 14:14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Yes absolutely we can always come back to Christ but we can also always be cut off. The branches are gathered together and burned. Cut off from Christ gathered and burned. Will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Thrown into darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And they will go away into eternal punishment. The Angels will throw them into the firey furnace. Their fate is the firey lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. Are you starting to see a pattern here. Every one of these verses are directly discussing salvation.

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
This giving is not the cause. He gives eternal life to those who believe.

And, this is WHY He IS the CAUSE. The giving of eternal life is WHY one possesses eternal life. So Jesus Christ is the CAUSE of whoever possesses eternal life.

When a person believes then after that he gives unto them eternal life (himself) and if they abide in him ( eternal life) they will continue in the Son and in the father. If they abide not they are cast forth.

Let's be clear here. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish. If there were, Jesus would have mentioned them in John 10:28.

Why is that not absolutely clear to you?

The view that recipients must continue to do something in order to not perish is FALSE and in TOTAL OPPOSITION to what Jesus very plainly said.

You need to align your views with those of Jesus.

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
Please stop avoiding a simple question.

I have never avoiding any of your attempted entrapment questions. I've given you answers that come straight from Jesus Christ. If that isn't good enough for you, that is not my problem.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus as Lord, and turn to the antichrist and confess him as Lord and still be saved?

Here I will go first.

The answer is no.

Yet, you have totally failed to prove your claim. You, along with others, have to force conditions into John 10:28 where Jesus didn't.

A born again Christian can not reject Jesus Christ and serve the antichrist as Lord and still be saved.

See. Very simple.

It’s simple for me because I’m not trying to hide a false doctrine.

The false doctrine is disagreeing with Jesus and making up what you want to believe.

Please prove your claim that anyone who has ever received eternal life can perish. From the Bible, of course.

Now it’s your turn.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus as Lord, and turn to the antichrist and confess him as Lord and still be saved?
JLB

Unlike your view, I stand with Jesus. I accept His teaching that those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

All you've ever proved is your rejection of what Jesus said: recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

What you've NEVER proved is that any recipient of eternal life CAN perish.

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
There are so many, but read again Matthew 10 again and again about 100 times in prayer

Why do you persist in this madness about anyone who has received eternal life perishing because they lost salvation.

How can you read John 10:28 and realize that NO recipient of eternal life can perish????

It appears that you're quite comfortable with Matt 10 being in complete opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

And since the plain words "loss of salvation" or "lose salvaton" are not found in ANY passage in the Bible, we know that John 10:28 is the CLEAREST verse on eternal security in the Bible.

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
You know what's mind boggling?
The fact that you always forget to read John 10:27

False statement, as you well know. I've acknowledged v.27 as a description of who Jesus' sheep are. There is no condition mentioned in v.27.

You don't like that part so you leave it out.

False statement again. Which you frequently make.

It's the part with the conditions in it.
HEAR
KNOW
FOLLOW

Do I have to mansplain the difference between a description and a condition?

You only like the easy part.

Anothe false statement. Which you're good at.

Read the Early Church Fathers.
Pre-Nicene. About 70-150 AD
They knew things you don't know.

Yeah, they did. They knew a lot of false doctrine.

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
They're smart questions.

No, I called them correctly.

Why am I not afraid of OSNAS and you are?

First, any professing Christian should be very afraid of being deceived and believing false doctrine.

Second, I have no fear of OSNAS. I have repeatedly refuted it with Jesus' own words.

Why is it so important for you to believe you can never be lost?

Because the Bible teaches it and it very notion that God's salvation can be lost/taken away/etc is false doctrine.

What's important to me is truth. But apparently not so much to you.

If the N.T. teaches us that salvation can be lost and the writers got a dry throat from telling us to behave or else, why would ANYONE not accept that as truth?

This would be a second class condition in the Greek. You can ask your Greek expert what that means.

BTW, where did I say we're in charge of our salvation?
I said
Jesus saves us
We follow His directives.

That was after I called you on it.

Oh. That's right. YOU don't like to follow His directives.

Seems you just love to make false claims.

That must be why you have to cling so tightly to OSAS.

I cling to what Jesus said.

Otherwise you would NOT feel secure.

I AM secure because of what Jesus said.

Also, I've noticed that persons that believe in OSAS are not as nice as the ones who DO NOT.

I'm blunt with those who push false doctrines. Just as Paul did and taught.

You say nasty things to people.

Is refuting false doctrine being "nasty"? Telling others they are wrong and then proving it from Scripture "nasty"? Such thinking is hypersensitive. Kinda like snowflakes.

Those on this forum that agree with me tend to be nicer persons.

I wonder why that is?

Should be rather clear. Those types are simply trying to hand on to their salvation, by what they do.

FreeGrace2 · May 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
Agreed.

However there are those here who promote the doctrine that teaches you no longer have to belief or have faith in Christ but you remain saved.

IOW, you can fall into unbelief, and serve other gods and still be saved.

Do you believe that way?

JLB

Some believe what Jesus said, and others don't believe what He said in John 10:28.

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