Should people living in sin be rejected from the church

FireDragon76 said:

It's not lying to refrain from shaming and humiliating other people.

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If someone comes out and asks me if his sin is cool with God
and I give Him Scripture, is that shaming him?

Grip Docility said:

John 5:39 shows that Jesus’ mercy trumps what is written, because what is written testifies of Him.

He said it. That it up with Him.

I wrote so much more in that post and you glossed over it. I even expressed a sorrow in my life.

I self disclosed in that post and you glossed over it.... and went to correction mode.

Why?

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Your post was edited 30 minutes ago.

There was no story of the past
in your post when I responded.

BNR32FAN said:

So no one “at the place where you go to worship”(since I’m not allowed to say “your church”) has ever been remarried? They must now divorce to continue attending church? Does the pastor at the place where you worship marry people who are divorced?

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is being remarried a sin?
Is LIVING IN SIN the same as having sinned in the past?
forgives caps for emphasis, in a hurry.

sunlover1 said:

Your post was edited 30 minutes ago.

There was no story of the past
in your post when I responded.

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I removed a single name at that time, but the story was there . You’re avoiding the interpersonal aspect of relating to the unrepentant.

You are playing a dangerous game and to be sincere, I’m not going to connect the dots.

There is now a strong contradiction apparent in your theology.

sunlover1 said:

If someone comes out and asks me if his sin is cool with God
and I give Him Scripture, is that shaming him?

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That’s just it. No sin is cool to God. Not one. James 2:10 is imperative to take into account.

We all need Him equally and any other understanding is “missing the mark”.

sunlover1 said:

If you're born again, you don't continue in
sin, according to God.
Does your church believe 1 John 3:9

Little children,b let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.
9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Let
No
One
Deceive
You

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This is what I suspected was lurking behind your doctrine.

This is a statement that is put together without full understanding of the passages you are referencing.

Born Again, doesn’t mean carnally perfect.

Our battle is not against flesh and blood, yet you are bringing it back to sin.

You said no rules, but sin is only present when the Law is factored in.

Contradiction is growing.

sunlover1 said:

is being remarried a sin?
Is LIVING IN SIN the same as having sinned in the past?
forgives caps for emphasis, in a hurry.

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Jesus spelled it out. Divorce and celibacy are all that may be counted as not sin. Also, divorce for the reason of infidelity was given...

If a woman is with another man, after divorce for any reason other than infidelity, it is adultery, by the sermon on the Mount.

If you realized the same God that used marriage to relate to His people was speaking, you may understand why I keep trying to reference Matthew 23.

As it stands, there is a grain of contradiction rolling around in your words and it’s not adding up.

Do you really think God came to tell us how to micro manage one another?

He didn’t. He came to Save us! We need saving! Capitol P eriod.

The Sin of the world is unbelief. (John)

Go and Sin no more. (John)

If anyone says they are without Sin, they make Him a Liar. (John)

Our battle is not against flesh and blood. (Paul)

You judge by the flesh, I judge no one. (Jesus)

And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
(Jesus)

- Why does Jesus say “repentance” in place of “bind people to righteousness of the Law”? Galatians has the answer.

- What defines sin? “The Law”

Has it occurred to anyone that the Son who was sleeping with his fathers “wife”... was literally betraying his father in a greivious way? As in horrible betrayal?

Even he was brought back in 2 Corinthians 2 by Paul’s request.

There is more to scripture than can be grasped if one only meditates on the big picture being conveyed.

Grip Docility said:

That strong delusion is of Satan...

Jesus called the teachers of the Law and Pharisees serpents and sons of Satan.

Would they kick the member out?

What would Jesus do?

You do not understand “Perfect Love”...

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It seems that Jesus idea of perfect love is different than yours.

“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin against you, go and show him his fault — but privately, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother.If he doesn’t listen, take one or two others with you so that every accusation can be supported by the testimony of two or three witnesses.If he refuses to hear them, tell the congregation; and if he refuses to listen even to the congregation, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax-collector. - Matthew 18:15-17 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:15-17 - Complete Jewish Bible

This is what Jesus would do. Why? Because repentance is the key to this whole thing. Indeed God rejects the unrepentant. The one who walks in unrepentant sinfulness is doomed. Hebrews tells us that.

There is a proud heart who says I am better than you, that is the pharisee. Then there is the humble heart that sees a brother walking in sin and trys to confront and help them out of a humble heart. Then there is the sinning brother who responds with pride which says "how dare you talk to me about sin" which is also pharisaical. Or the humble brother who says "forgive me for I have sinned."
There is the humble forgiving brother and the prideful unforgiving one.

Jesus allows us to confront our sinning brother and we should hope that our brother will confront us when we need it.

But our concern should not JUST be for the sinning unrepentant brother, but for the WHOLE body of Christ and how if we let sin abide then it damages the whole body.

rjs330 said:

It seems that Jesus idea of perfect love is different than yours.

“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin against you, go and show him his fault — but privately, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother.If he doesn’t listen, take one or two others with you so that every accusation can be supported by the testimony of two or three witnesses.If he refuses to hear them, tell the congregation; and if he refuses to listen even to the congregation, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax-collector. - Matthew 18:15-17 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 18:15-17 - Complete Jewish Bible

This is what Jesus would do. Why? Because repentance is the key to this whole thing. Indeed God rejects the unrepentant. The one who walks in unrepentant sinfulness is doomed. Hebrews tells us that.

There is a proud heart who says I am better than you, that is the pharisee. Then there is the humble heart that sees a brother walking in sin and trys to confront and help them out of a humble heart. Then there is the sinning brother who responds with pride which says "how dare you talk to me about sin" which is also pharisaical. Or the humble brother who says "forgive me for I have sinned."
There is the humble forgiving brother and the prideful unforgiving one.

Jesus allows us to confront our sinning brother and we should hope that our brother will confront us when we need it.

But our concern should not JUST be for the sinning unrepentant brother, but for the WHOLE body of Christ and how if we let sin abide then it damages the whole body.

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I’ve been waiting for this to be pointed towards and am relieved you brought it forward.

Note that this isn’t about Law based sin or carnal immortality... but it is specifically about trangressing Love.

It’s says... (Sins AGAINST you) and I broached this on post number 593 about the situation discussed in Corinthians.

This isn’t about judging Law based sin, but a person stepping on another person.

As in, “Oie, yer sleeping with your (I hope to goodness it was his stepmom and that is awful too!) Mom and my WIFE. It is really hurting my heart and you’re my son to boot!”

No one seemed to catch this idea except the full grace side of the debate and it has been broached earlier.

This is about a 1 Corinthians 13 transgression
Plain and simple! The Son wasn’t loving His father as the son wanted to be loved!

This matter becomes entirely different under these points and Paul even brings the situation to 2 Corinthians 2 Forgivness. Reconciliation and Forgivness must have occurred somehow, and imagine that horrific family reconciliation!

Are you “seeing” the picture we are discussing?

People want to jump on the Law based sin bandwagon and attach this to human Immorality and carnal error, but the James 2 Royal Law is the real issue here.

Love.



and on this horrifying note, per the example in Corinthians... does Jesus want Forgivness to occur, despite the situations outcome?

1 John 2:2 is your answer. Jesus wrote “Forgive them” in his blood.

It would be rather difficult to enjoy fellowship if a husband had to see his wife attending with another man. Now multiply that betrayal by it being his son!

Now the picture is coming into focus. And still, Forgivness was found by 2 Corinthians 2!

Now that’s the power of God!

As for the spiritual implications of the situation Paul brought to light, I’m going to keep matters simple, but there’s a lot more to what Paul is actually being inspired to say than people are realizing!

Mother, Father, Son. (Spiritual Union Skewed) It goes back to Matthew 23 but that’s been ignored so many times it’s sad.

Grip Docility said:

I removed a single name at that time, but the story was there . You’re avoiding the interpersonal aspect of relating to the unrepentant.

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Interpersonal aspect of relating to the unrepentant??
The Bible says to avoid them.

sunlover1 said:

Interpersonal aspect of relating to the unrepentant??
The Bible says to avoid them.

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You said it. Shut down the gospel mechanism and stop praying for outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Time to give up on people and sort the wheat from the Tares...

Grip Docility said:

That’s just it. No sin is cool to God. Not one. James 2:10 is imperative to take into account..

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Of course God isn't cool with sin.
He's Holy.
Of course sin is sin.
Then there's this

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

12“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything. 13“Food for the stomach and the stomach for food,” but God will destroy them both. The body is not intended for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By His power God raised the Lord from the dead, and He will raise us also.

15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”a 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a man can commit is outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.b

The Bible seems to make a distinction about sexual immorality.
But then again, it's not like we're trying to excuse SIN, in any
form! Amen?

Grip Docility said:

You said it. Shut down the gospel mechanism and stop praying for outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Time to give up on people and sort the wheat from the Tares...

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Ugh, and once again, I did NOT say it.
God did.

sunlover1 said:

Ugh, and once again, I did NOT say it.
God did.

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God stayed away from the Pharisees? Wait, God said to stay away from the unrepentant?

Or did He say to separate the wheat from the tares?

What is our limit on Forgivness to others?

How does the unrepentant receive gospel Love if we shun them?

Wait... when they’re righteous enough for church, again, or for a change, then they’re good to go?

How does sinners casting out sinners, for their sins, work again?

(1 John 1:8)

sunlover1 said:

Of course God isn't cool with sin.
He's Holy.
Of course sin is sin.
Then there's this

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

12“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything. 13“Food for the stomach and the stomach for food,” but God will destroy them both. The body is not intended for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By His power God raised the Lord from the dead, and He will raise us also.

15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”a 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a man can commit is outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.b

The Bible seems to make a distinction about sexual immorality.
But then again, it's not like we're trying to excuse SIN, in any
form! Amen?

Click to expand...

I have no desire to “excuse” sin, because it was Paid In Full. (1 John 2:2)

Matthew 23 would be wise to read. I’ve caught on, you don’t want to see the link in Paul’s use of Sexual Sin and the Adulterous Pharisees.

You’ve never noticed that Jesus continually broached marital infidelity to Israel and especially the Pharisees?

Do you not know who the persistent widow is?

Does any of this click?

But, I digress, consider 2 Peter 3:16

Also, Galatians sets forth fruits of the flesh in chapter 5 that seem oddly familiar.

The problem with lists is that they capture all of us at one point or another and Grace is all that’s left to cling to.

How is everything permissible for Paul, by the way?

Hmmmmm...

Are we on that “sin less than others” merry go round again?

How we treat the least of these... even the unrepentant... could call out our place in Division when He says... when you did this, you did it to Me.

Can I get an amen?

Along these same lines, how did God identify merciless people in the Old Testament?

Are you aware a gathering of believers is referred to as a woman?

Are you aware we are called the Body of Christ because we are “flesh of His flesh” because He consummated His marriage to us (Spiritually), through Mary of Israel, from the Line of Eve and David? Ephesians would be good to break out for this question.

Hint:
Bigger hint:

Grip Docility said:

I’ve been waiting for this to be pointed towards and am relieved you brought it forward.

Note that this isn’t about Law based sin or carnal immortality... but it is specifically about trangressing Love.

It’s says... (Sins AGAINST you) and I broached this on post number 593 about the situation discussed in Corinthians.

This isn’t about judging Law based sin, but a person stepping on another person.

As in, “Oie, yer sleeping with your (I hope to goodness it was his stepmom and that is awful too!) Mom and my WIFE. It is really hurting my heart and you’re my son to boot!”

No one seemed to catch this idea except the full grace side of the debate and it has been broached earlier.

This is about a 1 Corinthians 13 transgression
Plain and simple! The Son wasn’t loving His father as the son wanted to be loved!

This matter becomes entirely different under these points and Paul even brings the situation to 2 Corinthians 2 Forgivness. Reconciliation and Forgivness must have occurred somehow, and imagine that horrific family reconciliation!

Are you “seeing” the picture we are discussing?

People want to jump on the Law based sin bandwagon and attach this to human Immorality and carnal error, but the James 2 Royal Law is the real issue here.

Love.



and on this horrifying note, per the example in Corinthians... does Jesus want Forgivness to occur, despite the situations outcome?

1 John 2:2 is your answer. Jesus wrote “Forgive them” in his blood.

It would be rather difficult to enjoy fellowship if a husband had to see his wife attending with another man. Now multiply that betrayal by it being his son!

Now the picture is coming into focus. And still, Forgivness was found by 2 Corinthians 2!

Now that’s the power of God!

As for the spiritual implications of the situation Paul brought to light, I’m going to keep matters simple, but there’s a lot more to what Paul is actually being inspired to say than people are realizing!

Mother, Father, Son. (Spiritual Union Skewed) It goes back to Matthew 23 but that’s been ignored so many times it’s sad.

Click to expand...

Yes God wants forgiveness to occur. God also wants repentance to occur. Sin is always against someone. First and foremost it is against God, but secondly sin is against someone else. In Corinthians it was father son. But as Paul pointed out it's NOT just them God is concerned about. He's concerned about the rest of the church as well. One thing you cannot run from is that there was church discipline demanded. Matthew 23 is not about confronting sin. It's about hypocritical self righteous people.

Yet Paul speaks of humility. Going to someone with the RIGHT attitude. Humble. Looking to our own faults. Not judging others for doing the same things we are. Also never ever go to someone with the attitude that "I would never do that." It's about loving someone enough to help them overcome. But it's also about loving the entire body of Christ enough to know that unrepentant people need to be removed from us and the church.

And when they repent we welcome them back with open arms. Forgiving them as we want to be forgiven.

You just can't run from this.

No, what I wrote you was not to associate with anyone who is supposedly a brother but who also engages in sexual immorality, is greedy, worships idols, is abusive, gets drunk or steals. With such a person you shouldn’t even eat!For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn’t it those who are part of the community that you should be judging?God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves. - 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 - Complete Jewish Bible

Expel the evil doer. Don't eat with these people. Don't associate with them. Those are the words of the Lord. You can't run from them, you can't hide from them. You can't explain them away.

So how do we act. Shut up and not say anything? No

Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won’t be tempted too.Bear one another’s burdens — in this way you will be fulfilling the Torah’s true meaning, which the Messiah upholds.For if anyone thinks he is something when he is really nothing, he is fooling himself.So let each of you scrutinize his own actions. Then if you do find something to boast about, at least the boasting will be based on what you have actually done and not merely on a judgment that you are better than someone else; - Galatians 6:1-4 Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 6:1-4 - Complete Jewish Bible

Humility is the key. That's what Jesus was teaching. Not that we shouldn't do anything. But we need to be humble and repentant ourselves. No pride, no self righteousness. It is possible with the spirits help.

rjs330 said:

Yes God wants forgiveness to occur. God also wants repentance to occur. Sin is always against someone. First and foremost it is against God, but secondly sin is against someone else. In Corinthians it was father son. But as Paul pointed out it's NOT just them God is concerned about. He's concerned about the rest of the church as well. One thing you cannot run from is that there was church discipline demanded. Matthew 23 is not about confronting sin. It's about hypocritical self righteous people.

Yet Paul speaks of humility. Going to someone with the RIGHT attitude. Humble. Looking to our own faults. Not judging others for doing the same things we are. Also never ever go to someone with the attitude that "I would never do that." It's about loving someone enough to help them overcome. But it's also about loving the entire body of Christ enough to know that unrepentant people need to be removed from us and the church.

And when they repent we welcome them back with open arms. Forgiving them as we want to be forgiven.

You just can't run from this.

No, what I wrote you was not to associate with anyone who is supposedly a brother but who also engages in sexual immorality, is greedy, worships idols, is abusive, gets drunk or steals. With such a person you shouldn’t even eat!For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn’t it those who are part of the community that you should be judging?God will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves. - 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 - Complete Jewish Bible

Expel the evil doer. Don't eat with these people. Don't associate with them. Those are the words of the Lord. You can't run from them, you can't hide from them. You can't explain them away.

So how do we act. Shut up and not say anything? No

Brothers, suppose someone is caught doing something wrong. You who have the Spirit should set him right, but in a spirit of humility, keeping an eye on yourselves so that you won’t be tempted too.Bear one another’s burdens — in this way you will be fulfilling the Torah’s true meaning, which the Messiah upholds.For if anyone thinks he is something when he is really nothing, he is fooling himself.So let each of you scrutinize his own actions. Then if you do find something to boast about, at least the boasting will be based on what you have actually done and not merely on a judgment that you are better than someone else; - Galatians 6:1-4 Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 6:1-4 - Complete Jewish Bible

Humility is the key. That's what Jesus was teaching. Not that we shouldn't do anything. But we need to be humble and repentant ourselves. No pride, no self righteousness. It is possible with the spirits help.

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I don’t see a self righteous “I sin less” kind of bend to your core writing. I’m in very little disagreement with you, except that the context of the verse “Sins against you” is very clear. But, that’s a point of disagreement that I agree to disagree on.

You cited humility and shunned self righteousness. Currently, I’m gathering you extend grace to its limitless reaches.

- Grip

Grip Docility said:

God stayed away from the Pharisees? Wait, God said to stay away from the unrepentant?

Or did He say to separate the wheat from the tares?

What is our limit on Forgivness to others?

How does the unrepentant receive gospel Love if we shun them?

Wait... when they’re righteous enough for church, again, or for a change, then they’re good to go?

How does sinners casting out sinners, for their sins, work again?

(1 John 1:8)

Click to expand...

It works like this.

In the name of the Lord Yeshua, when you are assembled, with me present spiritually and the power of our Lord Yeshua among us,hand over such a person to the Adversary for his old nature to be destroyed, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 - Complete Jewish Bible

You see there is a time and place for severe action. Patience, forebearance, grace etc. Then finally discipline. For the good of all and for the good of the unrepentant.