Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Oh, yes, your posts are chock full of verses. And NONE of them support the notion that salvation can be lost.

GodsGrace101 said:

Can YOU post as many stating that we are eternally saved no matter what?

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Jesus didn't have to say "no matter what" even though that seems to be your sticking point. When He said whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life and shall never perish, the "no matter what" is obvious to any objective person.

I refer to your post no. 1352 in which you said this:

V.10 points out that whether believers are “awake” (alert/sober) or “asleep” (living like unbelievers), believers “will live together with Him”.

Could you post scripture please, that states we can live as we want to, like unbelievers, and still be saved -- living together with Him.
Thanks.

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What's wrong with 1 Thess 5:10? Isn't that one clear enough?

However, you know very well that's something I never preach. Because those who do live like unbelievers are in for a rought ride, since the Bible teaches painful discipline from God for such believers, complete with examples, none of which are pretty.

I think it's intellectually dishonest for your side to keep focusing on living like unbelievers with no consequences and STILL getting into heaven, when I have been very clear about the consequences.

JLB777 said:

Which is why I don’t use the word Trinity, or the word eternal security.

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Both are true, regardless of what you don't use.

Only those who believe and obey will have eternal life.

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Please share at least 1 verses that says this then.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36

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OK, what I see here is that 'believes' and 'rejects' are opposites. Now for at least 1 verse that says one must believe and obey to have eternal life.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ and turn to the antichrist and confess Him as lord and still have salvation?

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I refer your question to what Jesus said in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

This shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

MDC said:

The article is written from a “Calvinist” and is from a “Calvinist” reformed website. Yes scratching my head too. They completely disagree with your doctrine of losing salvation by works. But it also tells me you are confused and completely blind to the truth of the article written

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Here's a snippet from the article.
What do you not agree with?
That it's not necessary to work with the Holy Spirit to be pure?

sanctification addresses the dominion and corruption of sin in our lives. Justification is God’s declaring the sinner righteous; sanctification is God’s renewing and transforming our whole persons—our minds, wills, affections, and behaviors. United to Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, we are dead to the reign of sin and alive to righteousness (Rom. 6:1-23; 8:1-11). We therefore are obligated to put sin to death and to present our “members to God as instruments for righteousness” (6:13; see 8:13).

GodsGrace101 said:

I'm speechless!!!

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And yet, a fairly long post follows.

Do you understand ANY scripture at all???

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I understand quite a lot of Scripture.

I state facts and you don't understand the point.

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No, what you've stated are your opinions about things, which aren't found in Scripture.

I state Jesus is our freedom and you wonder from what, when I stated from what many times. Every Christian knows what we are freed from. You should find out.

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I know exactly what Jesus meant in John 8:31. Didn't you notice my question about what YOU think about what He meant? I wasn't searching for what He meant, but what YOU think He meant.

Do you really not grasp this difference?

Abiding does not equate to being saved?
Please read John 15:1-6 again.

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You're just not being teachable or reachable.

If we do not abide, we are cast aside like an unuseful branch, removed from the vine, and thrown into the fire.

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The agricultural metaphor has nothing to do with hell, as much as you'd like it to be.

If we DO abide we are connected to the vine and receive life from the vine.

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Absolutely wrong. The abiding is what WE do. Receiving life is what God does for us. I guess you're unfamiliar with this concept, yet you ask if I understand "any" Scripture.

One could ask that question of yourself.

Does anyone here on this thread not understand that this is referring to salvation and damnation?
Yes. You.

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Those who agree with your opinion are just as wrong as you are.

EternallyKeptByJesus said:

Its not that they can't, its that they choose not too. Just like the Pharisees who refused to accept that God would forgive sinners apart from the law.............
Be Blessed

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Good point.
And we all know what happened to them and the Sadducees in 70ad

Matthew 23:15
Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry-land to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Ezekiel 39:12/Reve 14:11]

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages....... [Luke 16:24,26]

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "
26 " 'And besides all this, between us[Jesus, Faith, Spirit] and ye[Moses, Law, Flesh] there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there ferry to us.' "

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
How many times must Jesus repeat Himself before you'll believe what He says?

Eloy Craft said:

I think you just said you are Jesus!

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Well, just read it again until you realize that I did not do any such thing.

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Oh, yes, your posts are chock full of verses. And NONE of them support the notion that salvation can be lost.

Jesus didn't have to say "no matter what" even though that seems to be your sticking point. When He said whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life and shall never perish, the "no matter what" is obvious to any objective person.


What's wrong with 1 Thess 5:10? Isn't that one clear enough?

However, you know very well that's something I never preach. Because those who do live like unbelievers are in for a rought ride, since the Bible teaches painful discipline from God for such believers, complete with examples, none of which are pretty.

I think it's intellectually dishonest for your side to keep focusing on living like unbelievers with no consequences and STILL getting into heaven, when I have been very clear about the consequences.

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YOU said it.
I just posted it.
Care to see your post again?
No. 1352

GodsGrace101 said:

How does one lose salvation by works?

That's why I'm scratching my head.

It's from a CALVINIST site. Go figure...
Even calvinists know what justification and sanctification is.
Even GOT QUESTIONS knows what it is.
MOST churches know what it is, they just don't teach it for fear of emptying out the pews.

Better to teach cheap grace and easy believism.

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You teach that salvation can be lost by works! The article doesn’t. Your understanding of justification is that of a papist, works based salvation. And definitely not in agreement with the article. It’s obvious you are completely blind to the truth behind the article. Your doctrine believes sanctification is the means to final justification. That’s false! If you were in agreement with the article you’d know that both justification and sanctification are works and graces of God. So therefore a believer is completely secure in Christ and will endure in faith to final glorification by Gods power.

FreeGrace2 said:

Now that would be rather ridiculous to think. Given all the verses I've shared about how to have eternal life.

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If the other guy disagrees with you about the meaning of scripture what good is posting more scripture? You gotta agree on scripture.

GodsGrace101 said:

How does one lose salvation by works?

That's why I'm scratching my head.

It's from a CALVINIST site. Go figure...
Even calvinists know what justification and sanctification is.
Even GOT QUESTIONS knows what it is.
MOST churches know what it is, they just don't teach it for fear of emptying out the pews.

Better to teach cheap grace and easy believism.

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What you call cheap grace and easy believism is nothing more than a smokescreen for your fight with antinomians. Your circle of Judaizers and antinomians are in the same camp actually

GodsGrace101 said:

Here's a snippet from the article.
What do you not agree with?
That it's not necessary to work with the Holy Spirit to be pure?

sanctification addresses the dominion and corruption of sin in our lives. Justification is God’s declaring the sinner righteous; sanctification is God’s renewing and transforming our whole persons—our minds, wills, affections, and behaviors. United to Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, we are dead to the reign of sin and alive to righteousness (Rom. 6:1-23; 8:1-11). We therefore are obligated to put sin to death and to present our “members to God as instruments for righteousness” (6:13; see 8:13).

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I agree with the article

Eloy Craft said:

If the other guy disagrees with you about the meaning of scripture what good is posting more scripture? You gotta agree on scripture.

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If some other poster misunderstands a verse or series of verses, I'll never agree with him/her.

FreeGrace2 said:

Well, just read it again until you realize that I did not do any such thing.

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That will give me a taste of eternity!

MDC said:

You teach that salvation can be lost by works! The article doesn’t. Your understanding of justification is that of a papist, works based salvation. And definitely not in agreement with the article. It’s obvious you are completely blind to the truth behind the article. Your doctrine believes sanctification is the means to final justification. That’s false! If you were in agreement with the article you’d know that both justification and sanctification are works and graces of God. So therefore a believer is completely secure in Christ and will endure in faith to final glorification by Gods power.

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First of all, you haven't understood anything of what I've said.
HOW COULD ONE LOSE SALVATION BY WORKING!!!
It's the opposite.

Justification is a COMPLETED work by God. We have nothing to do with it but believe and have faith.
Sanctification is a work of God, Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to help us. Help us what? Be in agreement with God regarding our sanctification and work toward it.
Sanctify: to be set apart for service to God.
God gives us the grace to be able to do this IF WE ALLOW HIM.

Jesus is standing at the door and is knocking.
He's KNOCKING, lightly.
Revelation 3:20

MDC said:

I agree with the article

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Sure doesn't seem like it.
But I hope so.

MDC said:

What you call cheap grace and easy believism is nothing more than a smokescreen for your fight with antinomians. Your circle of Judaizers and antinomians are in the same camp actually

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What's an antinomian?


Cheap grace:
We depend on God's grace for everything. So it becomes cheap. God gives us all the grace we need - but we have to do something to. Like obey His commandments.

Easy Believism:
Once one is saved that need to NOTHING.
Jesus has already done everything for us -- nothing left to do.
At least they believe they could be saved if they'll only believe.

GodsGrace101 said:

First of all, you haven't understood anything of what I've said.
HOW COULD ONE LOSE SALVATION BY WORKING!!!
It's the opposite.

Justification is a COMPLETED work by God. We have nothing to do with it but believe and have faith.
Sanctification is a work of God, Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to help us. Help us what? Be in agreement with God regarding our sanctification and work toward it.
Sanctify: to be set apart for service to God.
God gives us the grace to be able to do this IF WE ALLOW HIM.

Jesus is standing at the door and is knocking.
He's KNOCKING, lightly.
Revelation 3:20

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Lol so you lose it by not working?! Same thing! I see what blinds you. The idol of free will! Sanctification is the result of being born anew by Gods Spirit. So the elects volition now desires righteousness, by nature. This is the result of salvation! “If we allow Him”? Your will is not independent and free from Gods will and decrees. God preserves His people through faith. But the elects perseverance in faith IS NOT what keeps or maintains our salvation. Its the FRUIT or RESULT of being saved in Christ. The writer of the article doesn’t agree with your free will Arminian stance of losing salvation. So for you to use this article is meaningless towards your stance. It actually proves how wrong you are and confused at that

GodsGrace101 said:

What's an antinomian?


Cheap grace:
We depend on God's grace for everything. So it becomes cheap. God gives us all the grace we need - but we have to do something to. Like obey His commandments.

Easy Believism:
Once one is saved that need to NOTHING.
Jesus has already done everything for us -- nothing left to do.
At least they believe they could be saved if they'll only believe.

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Being naive and pretentious is a cowardly move. Your whole fight is against antinomians. But yet you play dumb as if you don’t know what or who they are. You can’t fight against the true gospel of grace.. which you label as “Calvinism”

Bible2+ said:

But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

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Note that this makes no sense whatsoever.
Because Hebrews 13:5 says
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Note that we should do 2 things because God will never leave us or forsake
That means there can be no conditions on His staying with us.

Bible2+ said:

It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

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So much for God's promise that He will not impute sin to us.
And if God punishes us for a sin we commit, That would mean God is unjust, because He already punished Jesus for all our sin.
You should really do an indepth study of Isaiah 53

Bible2+ said:

Christians are commanded to fear God

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Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
See how Jesus translates the command to fear.
Matthew 4"10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
God does not want us to be afraid of Him.
Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Luke 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear nottherefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
We should fear God, which means to hold Him in awe or reverence. Not be afraid of Him.

Bible2+ said:

The ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).
Note that none of those verses you cite actually mean what you say they do.

Bible2+ said:

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24).

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You should actually read the passages you cite. It would save you a lot of trouble.
139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
There is nothing in this passage about God revealing sin to us.

GodsGrace101 said:

I didn't speak to FG about the mark of the beast. You're confusing me with someone else.

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No, you quoted what JLB said about what FG2 said.
JLB said that FG2 said that believers can take the mark of the beast.
And you said that was to be found in post 1352.
But if you read that post, FG2 said no such thing.
In fact a few posts after that he flat out denies saying that.

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FreeGrace2 said:

If some other poster misunderstands a verse or series of verses, I'll never agree with him/her.

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Then you believe that you are infallible.

MDC said:

Being naive and pretentious is a cowardly move. Your whole fight is against antinomians. But yet you play dumb as if you don’t know what or who they are. You can’t fight against the true gospel of grace.. which you label as “Calvinism”

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What grace?
Grace is love.
A loving God does not send people to hell with no reason.
I don't play dumb --- I try to be honest. Guess you can't take it.
You have listed yourself as a calvinist.
Calvinistic grace is VERY EXPENSIVE indeed.
So expensive that God does not dispense it to everyone.

Antinomianism (from the Greek: ἀντί, "against" + νόμος, "law"), is any view which rejects laws or legalism and is against moral, religious, or social norms (Latin: mores), or is at least considered to do so.[1]

In Christianity, an antinomian is one who takes the principle of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the Law of Moses.[2]

I reject legalism but I don't reject laws.
If by the Law of Moses we mean the 10 commandments and not the 613 commandments...
Then, Yes, I believe we are bound to the law of Moses.

So I suppose I am NOT an antinomian.