If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Every time I see the title of the post, I think of the people who hold such a self-centered view that they think they have a right to declare God to be a monster--simply because he doesn't conform to their thoughts about what God should look like. If God is really God, how arrogant and stupid do you have to be to declare him to be a monster?
 
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Oldmantook

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Every time I see the title of the post, I think of the people who hold such a self-centered view that they think they have a right to declare God to be a monster--simply because he doesn't conform to their thoughts about what God should look like. If God is really God, how arrogant and stupid do you have to be to declare him to be a monster?
Your comment is quite ironic in that you correctly assert that God is not a monster. But you criticize people for attaching that label yet you resort to the same labeling when you declare others to be arrogant and stupid. The substance of the discussion lies in its content; not the title of the thread. Ad hominem arguments such as yours don't contribute anything to the discussion.
 
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mkgal1

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The substance of the discussion lies in its content; not the title of the thread
Exactly. And if a person were to read the thread (the full discussion) it should be recognized that the god that's spoken of that's being titled as a "monster" is the caricature that's been created...not the True God.
 
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Der Alte

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Exactly. And if a person were to read the thread (the full discussion) it should be recognized that the god that's spoken of that's being titled as a "monster" is the caricature that's been created...not the True God.
In what way? Is there a post in this thread which depicts the caricature you refer to?
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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Your comment is quite ironic in that you correctly assert that God is not a monster. But you criticize people for attaching that label yet you resort to the same labeling when you declare others to be arrogant and stupid. The substance of the discussion lies in its content; not the title of the thread. Ad hominem arguments such as yours don't contribute anything to the discussion.

Feel free to belittle my response; but understand your concept of God is mortally flawed if you think you have a right to characterize him as a monster. I stand by my initial comment, because to even label your own Creator a monster just demonstrates an immense amount of ignorance on your part. I don't see anyone in Scripture who knows God ever characterize Him in such a derogatory way. Your attempted manipulation of other humans to your point of view is not an excuse for such an ignorant comment--if you are really a believer. If you aren't in a living relationship with Him , then your ignorance and stupid comment would be more understandable. But, you don't claim that.
 
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Oldmantook

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Feel free to belittle my response; but understand your concept of God is mortally flawed if you think you have a right to characterize him as a monster. I stand by my initial comment, because to even label your own Creator a monster just demonstrates an immense amount of ignorance on your part. I don't see anyone in Scripture who knows God ever characterize Him in such a derogatory way. Your attempted manipulation of other humans to your point of view is not an excuse for such an ignorant comment--if you are really a believer. If you aren't in a living relationship with Him , then your ignorance and stupid comment would be more understandable. But, you don't claim that.
I agree with you that God is not a monster. Please point out in my reply where I did such a thing. The fact is I did not refer to God as a monster so I suggest you deal with the facts instead of resorting to innuendo. My whole point is that rather than resorting to an ad hominem argument as you you, it would be better if you had something to contribute - then contribute to the discussion itself instead of employing logical fallacy.
 
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he-man

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I agree with you that God is not a monster. Please point out in my reply where I did such a thing. The fact is I did not refer to God as a monster so I suggest you deal with the facts instead of resorting to innuendo. My whole point is that rather than resorting to an ad hominem argument as you you, it would be better if you had something to contribute - then contribute to the discussion itself instead of employing logical fallacy.
The Bible tells us there is no place apart from God, that he is everywhere and fills all things, so how can He create a place apart from Him? Moreover, why would He create a place just to punish the ones He says He loves unconditionally? That is not the nature of a loving God.
Since God is everywhere and fills all things, in the spirit world there is nowhere to escape from God even if you wanted to [Ps 139:7-8].
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty [G1349 δικην] of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
If you where once in a condition to stand in God's presence, then "fell" away, you would not be able to stand any longer; you would be "out from standing," cowering and trying to hide from His presence.
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the depository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Psa 21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.
Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
Psa 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
1 Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
Jesus could not have preached to anyone, dead or alive, while His dead body lay in the tomb. Why? Because He was dead! If He was not dead during those "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), then His sacrifice for the sins of humanity was in vain!
Scripture says that, when Jesus died on the cross, like all men His "spirit [returned] to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7; see Matthew 27:50; Luke 23:46; John 19:30). The spirit of a human is not conscious in death, for Solomon tells us plainly that "the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Thus, the spirit of a dead person cannot do anything: "for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (verse 10). As the psalmist writes, when a man dies, "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; in that very day his plans [thoughts, KJV] perish" (Psalm 146:4; see also Job 14:20-21; Psalm 104:29).
Jesus, in order to taste death like every man (Hebrews 2:9), had to die just as every man does. He was completely dead for three days and three nights; He was without life and consciousness both in body and in spirit. He could do no preaching to anyone, much less "to the spirits in prison," whoever they are.
This kind of translation seems attributable to a presupposition of what these words mean, and intrinsically changes the meanings of these words from the original intent. The translators' own incorrect ideas have clouded their objectivity, an all-too-frequent occurrence with virtually all western language Bibles
Jesus and the Apostles were all Jews of course, as were nearly all the members of the first Christian Church. The first Christians saw themselves as inheritors of the covenant of Abraham
In the Gospel story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus clearly states that they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die.
Hades is translated as hell ten times in the New Testament, but it is also translated as "grave" in 1 Cor 15:55, another point of inconsistency.
When Death and Hades is placed in the fiery presence of God, in the "lake of divine fire", it is destroyed, because it is in the very presence of God, death can not exist when God is present.
It is interesting to examine the Greek word for "divine", it is from the Greek "theion", which could also mean "divine being", but also means "sulfur', or in Old English "brimstone" [lit. 'burning stone'].
Yet the word 'theion' is translated as "brimstone" or "sulfur" in Luke 17:29, Rev. 9:17, 14:10, 20:10, 21:8, which is where 'fire and brimstone' comes out of heaven, but it is equally interchange with the words "divine fire". Since this did not fit the translators' preconceived ideas, it is rendered always as brimstone in this context
Elsewhere in Revelation it states that the "heat comes out of heaven" and burns the enemies of God, yet does not harm the ones with God's seal on their foreheads. So the same heat, the heat that is the very life and light that comes from God, burns the sinners, and does not harm the ones that love God.
 
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2tim_215

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Romans 10:9 says,
Romans 10:9-11 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
If this is true, and I believe it is, this seems to me to be a rather small price to pay.
 
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he-man

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Romans 10:9 says,
Romans 10:9-11 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
If this is true, and I believe it is, this seems to me to be a rather small price to pay.
The price is free for we could never be good enough without the gift of Grace. Those who are not going to stay in the faith will be subject to eternal destruction.
 
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2tim_215

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Seems to me if you can't at the very least confess God's son and acknowledge that He (Jesus) was resurrected that God has every right to do what He wants with those who refuse to do so. The ones who are the monsters are the ones who murdered Him along with Satan whose influence they were under in committing the act.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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What does that have to do with the topic? God has all eternity to reconcile the lost.
Your response to my post is to side step and waffle.
The recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of 1000 prisoners released from prison more than 660 will return to prison. Many of them blame everyone but themselves for their situation, judges, juries, lawyers, witnesses etc. Many even seek revenge on those they blame.
.....If God reconciles/saves those who died unrepentant after they have been punished for an indeterminate period in fire, will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they blame and hate God for their punishment?
Since they're saved, they'll be as happy with God as anyone else whom God has saved and allowed (or caused) to suffer, whether in this life or postmortem. Such as Job.
Job is irrelevant. He was not being punished by God. Same old cop-out which does not address anything I said.
.....On what basis do you assume that people who are punished in fire for an indeterminate period of time will be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God who punished them when 66+% of criminals in prison here in this world return to prison and most of them blame judges, juries, lawyers etc. and even try to harm them. Do you suppose that God will wipe their memories so they won't remember the eons of punishment?
 
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2tim_215

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Matthew 13:41-43 (KJV)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50 (KJV)
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Bible says there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth for some. I'd rather be part of what God calls the "righteous" crowd.
 
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he-man

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Seems to me if you can't at the very least confess God's sons and acknowledge that He (Jesus) was resurrected that God has every right to do what He wants with those who refuse to do so. The ones who are the monsters are the ones who murdered Him along with Satan whose influence they were under in committing the act.
The monsters were not literally a Devil or a Satan because there is no fallen angel. Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are overscrupulous and full of idle deities and superstitions of evil spirits in regard to religion. δεισιδαιμονέστερος [G1174 ] Get thee behind me, Satan - Υπαγε οπισω μου σατανα. Get behind me, thou adversary. This is the proper translation of the Hebrew word שטן Satan, from which the Greek word is taken. [CLARKE]
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Is a devil - Has the spirit, the envy, the malice, and the treasonable designs of a devil. The word “devil” here is used in the sense of an enemy, or one hostile to him. [BARNES]
It was not a literal satan
that fell, it was the figure of all superstitions about demons. The phrase “from heaven” is to be referred to the lightning, and does not mean that he saw “Satan” fall “from heaven,” but that he fell as quick as lightning [falls] from heaven or from the clouds. Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Devil: From Middle English fend, fiend, feond, viend, veond ("enemy; demon"), from Old English Feond ("enemy"), from Proto-Germanic *fijandz. Cognate with Old Norse fjandi (Icelandic fjandi, Danish fjende, Swedish fiende, Norwegian fiende, West Frisian fijan, Low German Feend, Fiend, Dutch vijand, German Feind, Gothic(fijands), all of them meaning foe. The Old Norse and Gothic terms are present participles of the corresponding verbs fjci/(fijan, "to hate"). Akin to Sanskrit ritzila (piyati, "(he) reviles").
Mat 13:25
  and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away, [YLT]
 
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2tim_215

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The monsters were not literally a Devil or a Satan because there is no fallen angel. Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are overscrupulous and full of idle deities and superstitions of evil spirits in regard to religion. δεισιδαιμονέστερος [G1174 ] Get thee behind me, Satan - Υπαγε οπισω μου σατανα. Get behind me, thou adversary. This is the proper translation of the Hebrew word שטן Satan, from which the Greek word is taken. [CLARKE]
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Is a devil - Has the spirit, the envy, the malice, and the treasonable designs of a devil. The word “devil” here is used in the sense of an enemy, or one hostile to him. [BARNES]
It was not a literal satan
that fell, it was the figure of all superstitions about demons. The phrase “from heaven” is to be referred to the lightning, and does not mean that he saw “Satan” fall “from heaven,” but that he fell as quick as lightning [falls] from heaven or from the clouds. Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Devil: From Middle English fend, fiend, feond, viend, veond ("enemy; demon"), from Old English Feond ("enemy"), from Proto-Germanic *fijandz. Cognate with Old Norse fjandi (Icelandic fjandi, Danish fjende, Swedish fiende, Norwegian fiende, West Frisian fijan, Low German Feend, Fiend, Dutch vijand, German Feind, Gothic(fijands), all of them meaning foe. The Old Norse and Gothic terms are present participles of the corresponding verbs fjci/(fijan, "to hate"). Akin to Sanskrit ritzila (piyati, "(he) reviles").
Mat 13:25
  and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away, [YLT]
Yes, Satan is our adversary but how do you explain Rev 12:7-9?
Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
If Satan were leading a horde of angels in heaven against another group of angels led by Michael (who in fact was an archangel or "chief" angels) what would that make Satan?

And in Jude we see that Michael would not bring a railing accusation against the devil who according to Rev 12:9 (also called the serpent and the dragon and who is Satan by his proper name). If Michael is in fact is an archangel or chief angel, thought it not proper to rail against the devil (Satan) then it stands to reason that Satan himself (once Lucifer) is an archangel himself, especially since he was the one who led other angels in rebellion against God.

When Paul spoke to the men in Athens on Mars Hill (which I presume you are referring to) he was speaking to Gentiles who believed in mythical gods, not the God of the Bible. He spoke of the "unknown God" which they did not know and yes, they believe in superstitions, not the Jehovah of the Bible.

When Jesus referred to "a devil" (which actually means demon) He was referring to Judas who was possessed at the time. As for Jesus seeing Satan "fall" from heaven, I'm more inclined that this was Him prophesying and has not necessarily occurred already. Regardless, this was specifically the person Satan that He was referencing. I'm sure Satan himself would prefer you not believe this and believe that this was some sort of methaphor He was speaking.
 
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he-man

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Yes, Satan is our adversary but how do you explain Rev 12:7-9?
Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. If Satan were leading a horde of angels in heaven against another group of angels led by Michael (who in fact was an archangel or "chief" angels) what would that make Satan?
That is funny because what John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. ' Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And in Jude we see that Michael would not bring a railing accusation against the devil who according to Rev 12:9 (also called the serpent and the dragon and who is Satan by his proper name). If Michael is in fact is an archangel or chief angel, thought it not proper to rail against the devil (Satan) then it stands to reason that Satan himself (once Lucifer) is an archangel himself, especially since he was the one who led other angels in rebellion against God.
Because the Lord had alread rebuked him: Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, Adversary; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
When Paul spoke to the men in Athens on Mars Hill (which I presume you are referring to) he was speaking to Gentiles who believed in mythical gods, not the God of the Bible. He spoke of the "unknown God" which they did not know and yes, they believe in superstitions, not the Jehovah of the Bible.
At an earlier stage of the language it might have been possible to establish different renderings, but now the English equivalents are so stereotyped that any change seems impossible. Thus the rendering of διαβολος and διαμονιον by the same word 'devil' is a grievous loss ; and it is much to be regretted that Wycliffe's translation of διαμονιον by ' fiend ' was not adopted by Tyndale, in which case it would probably have become the current rendering.
Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart: The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002
When Jesus referred to "a devil" (which actually means demon) He was referring to Judas who was possessed at the time. As for Jesus seeing Satan "fall" from heaven, I'm more inclined that this was Him prophesying and has not necessarily occurred already. Regardless, this was specifically the person Satan that He was referencing. I'm sure Satan himself would prefer you not believe this and believe that this was some sort of methaphor He was speaking.
In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge) Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here. While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition. Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches. There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings. Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil. Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tested, I am tested of God: for God cannot be tested with evil, neither testeth he any man: Jas 1:14  But every man is tested, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 
Jas 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren. 
 
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2tim_215

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That is funny because what John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. ' Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Because the Lord had alread rebuked him: Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, Adversary; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
At an earlier stage of the language it might have been possible to establish different renderings, but now the English equivalents are so stereotyped that any change seems impossible. Thus the rendering of διαβολος and διαμονιον by the same word 'devil' is a grievous loss ; and it is much to be regretted that Wycliffe's translation of διαμονιον by ' fiend ' was not adopted by Tyndale, in which case it would probably have become the current rendering.
Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart: The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002 In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge) Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here. While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition. Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches. There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings. Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil. Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tested, I am tested of God: for God cannot be tested with evil, neither testeth he any man: Jas 1:14  But every man is tested, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 
Jas 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren. 
Interesting response, no devil (Satan). The Bible says there is, this is not tradition (unless you want to call it sound Christian doctrine). And what does a "Satanist" have to do with it? You can believe what you want to believe (or not believe). I know who my enemy/adversary is. I really don't see how any of what you said applies to any of this. You're trying to make Satan into just a concept when he's a person which does exist. What does James 1:16 have to do with this? No one said "the devil made me do it'. At least I don't think so.
 
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he-man

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Interesting response, no devil (Satan). The Bible says there is, this is not tradition (unless you want to call it sound Christian doctrine). And what does a "Satanist" have to do with it? You can believe what you want to believe (or not believe). I know who my enemy/adversary is. I really don't see how any of what you said applies to any of this. You're trying to make Satan into just a concept when he's a person which does exist. What does James 1:16 have to do with this? No one said "the devil made me do it'. At least I don't think so.
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths. Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent
and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist. (Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).
In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of "Ha-Satan," the "adversary" of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on the subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in it's character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual
influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to ha-satan. The subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever. Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture. The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." It is easy to see how modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel". ME: from med. L., from L. daemon (or its dimin. daemonium), from Gk daimōn 'deity, genius'. The word "demon" (or daemon) comes from the Greek "daimon", which means "spirit". In ancient times, this term denoted spirits in general, without making a distinction between good or evil. Seir Seirath, hairy; goat; demon; tempest Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary Hebrew demon (שׂעיר). WYCLIFF BIBLE- Read and Study the Bible Online - Search, Find Verses =bibles&q=fiend&t=wyc&c=n
Matthew 4:5 Then the fiend took him into the holy city, and setted him on the pinnacle of the temple, Revelation 12:12 WYC Therefore, ye heavens, be ye glad, [Therefore, glad ye, heavens] and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the earth, and to the sea; for the fiend is come down to you, and hath great wrath [having great wrath], witting that he hath little time.
Arabic for Satan: trickster (also: cheat, conman, fraudster, imposter, deceiver) a person who cheats or deceives people; a wicked or cruel person. "a fiend thirsty for blood and revenge"; Villain, beast, brute, barbarian, monster, ogre, sadist, evildoer, swine G4567 σατανα σατανάς accuser, cruel wicked and inhuman person, adversary, opponent[G1140 & G1228] G 1140 δαίμονα δαίμονας fiend, troublemaker, demon, mischievous person, cruel, wicked, and inhuman person compare [G4567 & G1228] G1228 διάβολος διαβολης διαβαλλων διαβολέας 'slanderer' 'accuser', diabolical (adj.) Slanderous, hurtful, or corrupting. One who slanders, hurts, and corrupts (casting or sowing throughout) compare [G4567 & G1140]. Whether the devil is directly the cause of man's sinning?
Now God cannot be the cause of sin, as stated above (C/ [79], A[1]). Therefore it follows that in this respect, a man's will alone is directly the cause of his sin. Augustine proves (De Lib. Arb. i, 11) that "nothing else than his own will makes man's mind the slave of his desire." Now man does not become a slave to his desires; except through sin. Therefore the cause of sin cannot be the devil. but man's own will alone. In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of “Satan,” the “adversary” of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on his subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in his character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to him. The captivity brought the Israelites face to face with the great dualism of the Persian mythology, the conflict of Ormuzd with Ahriman, the co-ordinate spirit of evil; but it is confessed by all that the Satan of Scripture bears no resemblance to the Persian Ahriman. His subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever.
Demoniacs. This word is frequently used in the New Testament, and applied to persons suffering under the possession of a demon or evil spirit, such possession generally showing itself visibly in bodily disease or mental derangement. It has been maintained by many persons that our Lord and the evangelists, in referring to demonical possession, spoke only in accommodation to the general belief of the Jews, without any assertion as to its truth or its falsity. It is concluded that, since the symptoms of the affliction were frequently those of bodily disease (as dumbness, Matt. 9:32; blindness, Matt. 12:22; epilepsy, Mark 9:17-27), or those seen in cases of ordinary insanity (as in Matt. 8:28; Mark 5:1-5), the demoniacs were merely persons suffering under unusual diseases of body and mind.
 
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God doesn't need to fight anyone. It would be no contest. It's actually Satan fighting against God and attempting to destroy His creation since he knows he's not powerful enough to defeat God. So one of the things he does is try and discredit Him as well as His word as if he could prevent one thing that God said He would do or from happening he realizes that would be his best chance for success. And since he knows where he's destined to go, bringing as many of God's creation with him is the best thing he stands to accomplish. Fortunately we have God's word to help prevent this from happening.

There's no duality here as in mythology. Satan (as Lucifer) is one of God's creations and became a fallen angel (a very powerful one) and was renamed to Satan (see Rev 12:7) describing his character. Satan would like nothing more than for you to make him a mythical character instead of the real person that he is.
 
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he-man

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God doesn't need to fight anyone. It would be no contest. It's actually Satan fighting against God and attempting to destroy His creation since he knows he's not powerful enough to defeat God. So one of the things he does is try and discredit Him as well as His word as if he could prevent one thing that God said He would do or from happening he realizes that would be his best chance for success. And since he knows where he's destined to go, bringing as many of God's creation with him is the best thing he stands to accomplish. Fortunately we have God's word to help prevent this from happening.

There's no duality here as in mythology. Satan (as Lucifer) is one of God's creations and became a fallen angel (a very powerful one) and was renamed to Satan (see Rev 12:7) describing his character. Satan would like nothing more than for you to make him a mythical character instead of the real person that he is.
What? Do you study History?
Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.


Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." It is easy to see how modern religions mistakenly adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".

The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths. Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God like a Satan, as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).


Acts 17:16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.
Rev 12:9??
That is funny because what John says leaves out your devil theory because according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. '
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


Tell my why you are not foolish when you say you think your devil is cast down from heaven when you consider what Job says in chapter 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me. Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11

The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years in as much as from the hand of God only good can come, but against him, the Creator of the universe, no opposing being could originally exist but through their own fault they fell (John 8, 44; 2 Pet. 2, 4; Jude 6);when Christ shall appear to overthrow the kingdom of [death] (1 Cor. 15, 26; Heb. 2, 14; 1 John 2, 8). SEE Winer, 2, 385

At an earlier stage of the language it might have been possible to establish different renderings, but now the English equivalents are so stereotyped that any change seems impossible. Thus the rendering of διαβολος and διαμονιον by the same word 'devil' is a grievous loss ; and it is much to be regretted that Wycliffe's translation of διαμονιον by ' fiend ' was not adopted by Tyndale, in which case it would probably have become the current rendering.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Hillel , son of the nm. morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! The name is a cognate of the Hebrew word Shachar (שחר) meaning dawn.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge) Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.


Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil
David Joris (c. 1501–1556
, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory.


Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart: The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002
 
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