Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Bible2+ · May 21, 2018

bcbsr said in post #1298:

Eternal Security is strongly implied in the preaching of the gospel.

Note that the Bible does not teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if Christians do continue in the faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience to God, and do good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if Christians do continue in faith and good works of faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help other Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that Christians will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist, and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do these things (1 Timothy 4:1).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All of this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in Christians, but the healthy fear which all Christians are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all of this is said not to engender any despair in Christians, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ Himself, which all Christians must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right things (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus Christ is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give Christians more work to do for Him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if Christians ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back, and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work He is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

Bible2+ · May 21, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1302:

Which verse gives conditions beyond faith for salvation? None.

Consider Eph 2:8,9

That's initial salvation. Ultimate salvation requires works (Romans 2:6-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1302:

Jesus gave no conditions to recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

He did (Luke 13:3).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1302:

So your adding conditions from "other verses" is nothing more than eisegesis.

No, it's nothing more than what Jesus did in Matthew 4:7.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1332:

We receive eternal life as believers, or these verses are wrong:
John 3:16, John 5:24, 6:47.

They're right. But it can be lost (Matthew 24:48-51).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1332:

Now prove your thesis that being "into the fire" means going to hell.

John 15:6 refers to Revelation 20:15.

For John 15:6 shows that Christians who at one time were abiding in Jesus Christ as a branch in His vine (John 15:4-5) can wrongly employ their free will to stop abiding in Him, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1333:

I DO hope (have rock solid confidence of) for life with God in eternity . . .

Christians, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be obedient to God now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the rock, as it were, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient Christians will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1338:

The son remained a son throughout the parable.

But he eventually repented (Luke 15:18).

Whereas Christians are the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death, if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sinners even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1338:

Do you believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish? Jn 10:28

With conditions (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1339:

Do not make the mistake of thinking that salvation is a "prize".

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Here "being a castaway" refers to the ultimate loss of salvation, as in Matthew 7:23b.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1352:

[1 Thes. 5:] 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

With conditions (e.g. John 3:36b, Hebrews 10:26-29).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1382:

Peter said: believers have been born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED in 1 Pet 1:23

But they themselves are still corruptible (2 Peter 2:20-22).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1382:

The real problem is you just can't stand the thought of a believer who rebels to the point of greatly offending yourself should NOT be allowed into heaven.

Well, you just haven't met grace yet.

Grace does not cover unrepentant sin (Jude 1:4a, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Bible2+ · May 21, 2018

MDC said in post #1313:

You promote idolatry and SELF worship.

No, for Jesus Christ is still our Savior. For it is only by our continuing to abide in Him that we are able to believe, and do, the right things (Hebrews 12:2, John 15:4-5, Philippians 2:12-13). On our own, there is no way that we can ever save ourselves from hell. Also, Jesus is both our Savior and our King, our Lord: His name "Jesus", which means "YHWH the Savior" (cf. Isaiah 43:11), points to His role as our Savior (Matthew 1:21). And His title of the "Christ", which means the "Anointed" (cf. 2 Samuel 12:7), points to His role as our King (Mark 15:32), our Lord (2 Peter 1:11).

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MDC said in post #1315:

You believe your works merits justification.

Ultimate justification (James 2:24).

Bible2+ · May 21, 2018

GodsGrace101 said in post #1327:

I don't believe doctrine will save anyone . . .

Note that Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must also be a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9), and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, in order for people to be saved from hell, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the Biblical doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

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GodsGrace101 said in post #1328:

I'm not one to believe that doctrine saves us.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

GodsGrace101 said in post #1328:

The consequence of not obeying God is not a small matter.

Indeed, for obedience is required for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

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GodsGrace101 said in post #1362:

WHO on this forum said that producing fruit saves us??

Ultimately (John 15:2a).

Bible2+ · May 21, 2018

Doug Melven said in post #1341:

He has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and a sound mind. 2 Tim 1:7

When 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God has not given Christians the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (G1167) means "timidity". And the context means that a Christian is not to be timid before people (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he is ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:8), or afraid of suffering affliction from people for preaching the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God has not given Christians the spirit of the fear of people (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

Doug Melven said in post #1341:

There is no fear in love because fear has torment 1 John 4:19

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

Doug Melven said in post #1341:

This concept of fearing God will take away eternal life if we don't perform is a totally unScriptural concept.

Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

Doug Melven said in post #1341:

You can't say, "I sin and then repent".

Christians can repent from sin and be forgiven (1 John 1:9).

Doug Melven said in post #1341:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible, flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to immortal/incorruptible, resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it), like Jesus Christ was resurrected into on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies will not inherit the eternal (as opposed to the preceding, Millennial) aspect of the Kingdom of God, which will be on the New Earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who will not become Christians until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of Christians into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become Christians before the Second Coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house, and stay there for awhile, without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at Jesus' Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who will not become Christians at that time will enter the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom in their mortal bodies, without inheriting the Kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the third-heaven aspect of the Kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Two Witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of Christians into immortal physical bodies will not happen until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not happen until after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the Two Witnesses will ascend into the third heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it does not say that they will inherit the third heaven, just as when the apostle Paul said that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken into the third heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he does not say that he inherited the third heaven. And just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken into the third heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it does not say that they inherited the third heaven.

Doug Melven said in post #1341:

God's works, not our own.

Both at the same time (2 Corinthians 5:9; 1 Corinthians 3:9a).

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Doug Melven said in post #1383:

The problem with saying somebody cannot live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved is that people who think they are living holy lives don't see or they ignore all of the sins they are committing.

The ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2018

bcbsr said:
You're saying that you agree with the statement "There are many scriptures that say that we must produce fruit and refrain from sin or we will not be saved."

So which is it? Do you believe in salvation by faith apart from works, or do you believe that salvation is contingent upon producing fruits and refraining from sin?

I believe both.

There is salvation which cannot be gained by us personally.
We cannot do enough works to become saved. We are saved only by faith --- as in the O.T. also. We must believe in God, have faith and trust in Him to be saved. We must be born of above, as Jesus stated in John 3:3.

Jesus said that if we are not born of above, we cannot see the Kingdom of God. The K of G is here on earth. It is that unseen dimension where all in the spirit are one in Christ. Jesus meant for us to change and to also change the world by our following Him.

So -- A Kingdom is a real place. With a ruler, Jesus, and with a population, God's Body, or Bride, or US, and with rules that are to be followed so that the Kingdom could function properly.

If we want to remain in the Kingdom, we do have to follow the rules Jesus left us with. I guess some would call this "maintaining our salvation". OK. But that sounds so legalistic to me.

We maintain our salvation because we love our ruler and we love to be in the Kingdom.

But however you want to say it, we are required to follow God's rules, laws, commandments, or whatever you care to call it.
God has always demanded obedience from His people.

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
And what part of this doesn't mean eternal security for those who have been born again?

Jesus is the imperishable seed, not us.
We can perish if we do not believe.
John 3:16
PRESENTLY.

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Is there an actual verse that says this, or is this another opinion or presumption?

But I know there can be no such verse, since Jesus was clear about the final destination of everyone to whom He gives eternal life: they shall never perish.

I just cannot understand how anyone can not believe what Jesus said about recipients and never perishing.

You REALLY should start understanding it and believing it.

As to the verse you asked for which you say does not exist...
here they are...they are about how we must know Jesus to be saved.

John 8:31-32 and who is the truth?
John 8:36

John 8:54-55
The Pharisees SAID they knew God, but Jesus said they did not. So if we do not know God, we are not abiding in Christ and are lost.

John 14:7
verse 6 Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
verse 7 IF the apostles KNEW HIM, they would also have known the Father...

When doctrine is correct, anything can be proven.

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2018

Doug Melven said:
You should go back and read that post.
There is nothing in FG2's post about the mark of the beast.

Sin is sin.
And just to add to that list.
Do you always have perfect peace?
If you don't that means you are not trusting God. Isaiah 25:3

I didn't speak to FG about the mark of the beast. You're confusing me with someone else.

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2018

Doug Melven said:
The words "Eternal security" are not in the Bible, but the concept is.
Look at hese verses.
1 Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

2 Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

3 Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

4 Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

5 Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
6 Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

7 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Notice the 2 different believe's in this verse. The first one gives us eternal life. We possess it. We also need to believe for blessings. Not continue to believe to get something we already possess.

8 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

9 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Yet some people think Jesus will cast us out or cut us off from eternal life.

10 Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

11 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
You don't belong to you anymore. Once you were joined to the LORD, you belong to Him now.

12 2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

13 Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

14 Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Because He is always with us we should do these 2 things.

15 1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The words "initial" and "Ultimate" salvation aren't in the Bible either but you accept those.

DM,
The above is for JLB777, but you keep posting verses that are correct but apparently misunderstood by you so I would like to comment.

Romans 5:8,9 Correct. But it doses not show the concept of eternal security. It just says Christ died for us and we are saved by His blood.

Romans 10:13 Correct. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. No eternal security concept here.

Colossians 1:12-13 Correct. Verse 10 states that we are to walk in a manner wothy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work. Not only does it not speak about the concept of eternal security, but it puts conditions on our salvation.

Ephesians 4:13-14 I spoke to this in detail and will only say that the seal can be broken. And his name blotted out of the book of life. Revelation 3:5

Hebrews 7:25
Hebrews 10:10, 14 Correct. God is able to keep us as long as we allow Him to and abide in Him. If we do not abide in Him, He cannot keep us. John 15:6

1 John 5:13 God gave us eternal life. The life IS IN THE SON.
So, whoever HAS THE SON HAS LIFE. If we do not have the Son, we do not have life.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 Correct. The foundation is the same...but some build upon it with silver and gold and some with hay and straw. Here we speak of rewards..we each do what we can for the Kingdom. But it does not speak about eternal security.

John 6:37 Jesus will NEVER cast out anyone who goes to Him for salvation. Correct. This does not, however, speak about eternal security.

Ephesians 4:30 Ditto as for Ephesians 1:13-14

Your numbers 10 & 11 All true. But it does not speak about eternal security -- in fact, once again it speaks in the present tense. One must BE A BELIEVER to be saved.

Philippians 1:6 He who has begun a good work in us will continue with it as long as we abide in Him. John 15:5

Hebrews 13:5 Again, Jesus will never forsake us, as long as we remain IN HIM.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Correct. We have all the gifts we need to keep on the road toward God and He will help us to get there blameless. John 16:7

I just don't see eternal security guaranteed in any verse you've quoted.

Here is what will guarantee it though:
John 17:3
3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
NASB

If we know God, the only true God (many were worshipped back in Jesus' time) and if we know Jesus whom God sent to teach us HIS ways and what we must do to be saved.

It is KNOW GOD and
KNOW JESUS

NOT, had known at some time in the past.
We must believe NOW.
It is always present tense.

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2018

@FreeGrace2
I found another verse about knowing God!
There are quite a few. If you've noticed, I never have a problem finding verses you request. The N.T. is chock full of them.

John 17:3
3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. "
NASB

And JESUS said it.

I'm sure you know that KNOW mean in an intimate way.
If we know God we have eternal life...
If we do not know God, we do not have eternal life.

bcbsr · May 21, 2018

zoidar said:
How can it not be a condition to be saved, when it's said:

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” /Matt 25

In the Mt 25 passage they were separated according to what they were - sheep or goats. No gradient. No other category. You're either a child of God or not. Those who are children of God behave as you would expect children of God to behave, and those not behave in accordance with their sinful nature.

One becomes a child of God not by good works but by faith apart from works.

"to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." John 1:12,13

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
not by works, so that no one can boast."

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:" Rom 4:4-6

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"Eternal security" is not there. Sorry, epic fail.
Not the words, the phrase, the doctrine, or the teachings(false ) that go along with the doctrine..... again, epic fail....

The epic fail here is the failure to recognize the obvious promise of eternal life in John 3:16.

Whosever believes shall not perish. How can anyone miss that message?

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2018

JLB777 said:
This scripture teaches us the condition required for eternal life.

Believe, which means obey.

Epic fail to understand words. From John 3:16
NT:4100 pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o); from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):
KJV - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

To believe is to trust.f Who ya trusting in for salvation? Your own righteousness and works, by (trying) to continue to do good, or in what Christ did for you?

Thanks for proving my point.

Your points have never been proven.

zoidar · May 21, 2018

Bible2+ said:
When 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God has not given Christians the spirit of "fear", the original Greek word (G1167) means "timidity". And the context means that a Christian is not to be timid before people (cf. Proverbs 28:1) because he is ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:8), or afraid of suffering affliction from people for preaching the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6). So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God has not given Christians the spirit of the fear of people (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28). God has given Christians the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, 1 Peter 2:17, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But Christians can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench God's Holy Spirit within them (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

Christians can repent from sin and be forgiven (1 John 1:9).

1 Corinthians 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible, flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to immortal/incorruptible, resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it), like Jesus Christ was resurrected into on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies will not inherit the eternal (as opposed to the preceding, Millennial) aspect of the Kingdom of God, which will be on the New Earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who will not become Christians until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of Christians into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become Christians before the Second Coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house, and stay there for awhile, without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at Jesus' Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who will not become Christians at that time will enter the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom in their mortal bodies, without inheriting the Kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the third-heaven aspect of the Kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Two Witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of Christians into immortal physical bodies will not happen until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not happen until after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the Two Witnesses will ascend into the third heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it does not say that they will inherit the third heaven, just as when the apostle Paul said that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken into the third heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he does not say that he inherited the third heaven. And just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken into the third heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it does not say that they inherited the third heaven.

Both at the same time (2 Corinthians 5:9; 1 Corinthians 3:9a).

*******

The ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Bible2+, you are refering to tons of verses, no one will read all those verses. I suggest you select a few verses that descibe what you want to say.

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Perfect. There is one.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Now, the only way to prove that being born again doesn't include being given eternal life.

So, be my guest. Prove away.

JLB777 said:
No mention of eternal security here.

Right. Just as there is no mention of the word "Trinity" in the Bible either, but the principle is as clear as the sky.

The words "shall never perish" which is on the basis of receiving eternal life IS eternal security.

It is an epic fail to miss that.

Only the result of meeting the condition of verse 27, which you failed to mention.

The ONLY CONDITION shown is for never perishing. And that condition is met when eternal life is received.

Another epic fail.

You can’t get around obedience.

Never tried either. But you seem to keep trying to ignore Scripture and the real meaning of words, like "believe", which isn't about obedience at all.

Without it, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Absolutely true. But you fail epically to understand what it means to inherit the kingdom.

To inherit does NOT mean to enter. There is no connection between those 2 words.

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Note that the Bible does not teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end

This is nothing more or less than teaching that salvation is probationary, and is ultimately based on what the believer does after receiving this "initial salvation". Yet, there is no such teaching in the Bible. This is the same as the Catholic church teaches.

Yet, Jesus said clearly in John 3:16, 5:24 and 6:47 that on the basis of believing, the believer POSSESSES (has) eternal life. This is a present tense reality. So, when one believes in Christ, they HAVE (right now) eternal life.

And Jesus then said clearly that those He gives eternal life (believers) they shall never perish.

There is no probationary period for the believer. The are serious consequences for rebellion, etc, but it doesn't include the threat of losing salvation.

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2018

Bible2+ said:
That's initial salvation. Ultimate salvation requires works (Romans 2:6-8).

I'm done with this nonsense. You've proven nothing. Except show epic failure to undestand simple Scripture. Rom 2:6-8 is IMPOSSIBLE for any human being to meet.

That's the whole point of the Law. No one can keep the Law continually. And Rom 2:6-8 is saying that only IF one CAN do that would they earn eternal life. But no one can.

Why stop at these verses. Let's move forward, as Paul did, and consider Rom 3:9 and 23. All are sinners, all have sinned, and all have missed the mark. Bingo. So much for your theory about Rom 2:6-8.

Then, Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Grace does not cover unrepentant sin (Jude 1:4a, Hebrews 10:26-29).

This shows the epic failure of the OSNAS crowd. No understanding of God's grace at all.

Apart from God's grace, no one would ever enter heaven.

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2018

Bible2+ said:
No, for Jesus Christ is still our Savior.

Since you've said that ultimate salvation is dependent upon our works, just HOW does Jesus actually save us then?

Please respond.

FreeGrace2 · May 21, 2018

bcbsr said: ↑
So which is it? Do you believe in salvation by faith apart from works, or do you believe that salvation is contingent upon producing fruits and refraining from sin?

GodsGrace101 said:
I believe both.

This admission is clear proof of your extreme confusion and confliction.

Two diametrically opposed ideas cannot both be true. It takes a break from reality to even think so.

Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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