RC Sproul -- free will ???

Mountainmanbob said:

It has taken me some years to get (a little) grasp on this. MB

An excellent very short video.
Please comment only after watching.

Click to expand...

I like what Sproul says here, although I admit it is difficult to understand for many people because they don't have the theological education that one needs as background to fully appreciate what he says. He is trying to say it briefly. It can be explained briefly, but very difficult to prove Biblically so briefly as that.

One of the points of confusion is the term "free will," and how that term is used in various contexts. Free will simply means that if a person exercises their "free will" by making a decision that is not under compulsion or duress by another person, then that person is expressing themselves, in what they want or have decided to do in their own interest.

So applied to response to the gospel, people might choose to follow Christ in response to the gospel message, whether they feel like they are under pressure or not (for example, the pressure of knowing they might be headed for the lake of fire judgment). In my specific case, I definitely felt that pressure very strongly, and felt like I was under duress, but in the end, I am a follower of Christ, and happy to be so. In that sense, I continue to exercise my "free will" to remain a follower of Christ.

However, I dare not claim that I am a Christian by my own independent "free will," lest I be found boasting in myself. The Biblical language (especially of the apostle Paul) tells us that before we were converted through the gospel message, we were very bad people in the eyes of God. It tells us we were:
dead in trespasses, walking the way of the world, children of disobedience and wrath, not righteous,
useless, bitter, haters of God, slaves of the devil, held captive to do his will, under the evil one's control, mind set on the flesh, not able to please God. IOW, dirty rotten sinners having no intention to do God's will, loathing of His law. (the doctrine of original sin).

But God, rich in mercy and love, raised us up from death to life (in the spirit) and seated us with Christ in the heavenlies (by grace we were saved). At that time we heard the gospel and believed. Therefore even our faith is a gift of God.

This special revelation from God tells me something about myself that transcends my own senses and reason. It tells me something that I couldn't possibly know naturally, and so I simply have to believe it because the word of God says it. It tells me that my will was once a slave to the devil and to the sinful nature, and that I was not able to respond favorably to the gospel call, until God raised me to life in the spirit because of His kindness. In this way did God free my enslaved will from the devil's hold, and granted me to have liberty from sin, thus giving me a will (i.e. a spiritual will) free from sin. This is brought out in 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

This condition is a gift of God - by grace are we saved. We are born again, not by any "free will" of ours, because before we are raised to life by God, we're dead, and spiritually dead people don't have the will, wisdom, understanding, or desire to be born again. We must be granted the conditions for it by God. Thus, when Jesus said "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit," He is implying that we don't have control of it, only God does. Only God has control of our eternal destiny.

Therefore we cannot say that we came into the faith by some "free will" decision, as if we were autonomous in that decision. Before we were born again, our will was slave to Satan. After we were born again (through the gospel message), our will was freed from Satan, and is now enslaved to Christ and righteousness.

When I was first born again, I didn't understand anything, nor did I know this special revelation of God about what He did to me. So at the time it appeared to me like I was making my own "free will" decision, because no one held a gun to my head or a knife to my throat. I simply heard the statement "don't play around with God" (meaning He is serious about holiness), and I envisioned the lake of fire, heard God tell me "this is your last call," and the fear of God drove me to my knees. I thought I was reasoning it out in my own mind at the time, but now I know that God was at work, and He was the one compelling me to believe and trust in Christ for my salvation.

So in that sense, in the spiritual plane, the idea that we don't really have "free will" is true. We make "free will" decisions from our limited point of view in the natural plane, but from God's point of view, we were not able to decide favorably to the gospel message until God changed our will to make it favorable to His favor. If what Paul wrote about this is true (I believe it is), then our being Christians is God's work, not ours.
1 Cor. 1:30 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."
Phil. 2:13"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Jn. 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Therefore, since even my faith is God's work, I boast that God saved me by His grace, according to His kindness and love, and I shun any boast that I had an autonomous free will making the decision to become a Christian apart from the movement of God's divine imposition. In light of this fact, I put my faith continually in God's ability to move me in the direction He wants me to go (i.e. led of the Spirit), instead of trying to make my own independent decisions. From a natural point of view, it appears like I am making "free will" choices; but from the spiritual point of view, I am a bondslave of Christ.
TD

Invalidusername said:

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Click to expand...

When was Paul under the law? Was it when he became a believer or before?
Was it not Paul that taught that we are not under the law in the same Romans 7 and goes on to explain that?

Oloyedelove said:

When was Paul under the law? Was it when he became a believer or before?
Was it not Paul that taught that we are not under the law in the same Romans 7 and goes on to explain that?

Click to expand...

So freedom lies in submission to the Will of Christ. What else is new?

Oloyedelove said:

When was Paul under the law? Was it when he became a believer or before?
Was it not Paul that taught that we are not under the law in the same Romans 7 and goes on to explain that?

Click to expand...

Firstly, we ought to think in terms of spiritual truth in these things. Paul is talking about what is happening in the spiritual plane, so the faith he is talking about is something driven by the Spirit, which is far deeper than mere knowledge of what Christ has done for us. It's trusting in Christ (no matter what happens in our life), and it transcends our feelings. We trust God whether we feel like it or not.

When Paul uses the phrase "under the law," he is talking about a mindset, which manifests in attitudes and behavior. It is a matter of where we are directing our faith. If we are trusting in our ability to obey the commandments of God (moral code), our faith is misdirected, and Paul calls this being "under the law." When we are directing our faith to Christ (that is, fully trusting Him to handle our salvation needs), Paul calls that being "under grace."

But there is also another sense Paul uses those phrases, in the absolute sense. If we believe the gospel message that Christ's death and resurrection is sufficient to save us from our sins and reconcile us to God, then we are under grace in the absolute sense. Being under grace absolutely means that God is the one who secures us in Christ. It is then a matter of us getting our mindset in unity with the absolute truth that we are under grace, which matures our attitudes and actions to manifest the fruits of the Spirit.

Conversely, if we have not yet set our trust in Christ and His work as our absolute acceptance with God, then we are still "under the law" in the absolute sense. We then have an obligation to believe the gospel and repent from our independence from God by surrendering to His call.

Therefore, the context of Paul's statements determine whether he is talking about being "under the law" in the absolute sense or the mindset sense. For example, in Rom. 6:14-15, the usage is the absolute sense. In Gal. 4:21 he is using it in the mindset (relative) sense.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Rom. 7 is describing a transition experience, that is, transitioning from unbelief to belief; in other words, conversion. He is reasoning out in logical detail the relationship between the law and the human condition, and how that applies to the gospel message. So it is a very human way of looking at conversion. We see our need for a savior, therefore we hope in Him.

Finally, we should not condemn ourselves just because we don't see ourselves as perfectly mature Christians yet. We all have a long way to go on this journey of the narrow way. The important thing is to see Rom. 7 as an encouragement to trust in Christ today more than yesterday, not only to save us from God's wrath (death), but also from the sins we do.
TD

Mountainmanbob said:

It has taken me some years to get (a little) grasp on this. MB

An excellent very short video.
Please comment only after watching.

Click to expand...

Basically, he is saying that we have free will BUT. . let me put conditions on that. Which is correct.

Mountainmanbob said:

Seems that RC is saying that we have free will in certain areas and in other areas we don't?

It's hard for man to grasp this.
We always think that we like what is fair. Fair according to man and his simple little thoughts.

M-Bob

Click to expand...

Have you heard of Pelagius?

Mountainmanbob said:

It has taken me some years to get (a little) grasp on this. MB

An excellent very short video.
Please comment only after watching.

Click to expand...

OK MMB,
I don't know who this guy is but he seems important.

When the bible speaks of free will it means the ability to choose what is right and what is wrong. Some will add to this that true free will is not affected by any outside force. Well,,, good luck. Our entire lives are affected by everything around us.

So if I'm a saved person I will TEND to do God's will.
If I'm an unsaved person I will TEND to do satan's will.

In either case, I have the free will to choose what I will do.
Does this go against God's sovereignty? No. Because as we, in our little lives, choose which course to take, God, in the end, will achieve HIS purpose, not matter what we choose.

Adam and Eve had free will before the fall and after the fall.
No one has ever been able to show me from scripture where or when man lost free will. In fact there are many verses in the bible that attest to our free will, beginning in the O.T. and going through to Revelation.

Calvin took free will away from man with his teachings.
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Perseverance of the Saints

So it seems to me he spoke around the idea a bit. I don't know if he's reformed in his theology or not. He could have been more clear. When someone speaks around ideas, it means, to me, that they do not want their idea to be very clear.

Kevin Snow said:

So let us consider the different angles of approach in terms of free will. RC Sproul offered a good two sided perspective of free will to choose to be righteous versus our ability to choose a sandwich. He said we have free will in regards to the sandwich but we don't have free will in regards to righteousness, since as Christ said, "anyone who sins is a slave to sin." John 8:34

But there is another two sided perspective about salvation and free will. Do we choose to believe in God ourselves or is it predestined? And many say that predestination is like some opposite of free will. We either are on one side or the other. But the scriptures teach both at the same time. Consider:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
~Romans 8:29-30

In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. ~Ephesians 1:5

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will ~Ephesians 1:11

And yet we find that Paul often encourages others in the way of free will:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ~Philippians 2:12

Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.
~2 Corinthians 6:1

and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain ~1 Corinthians 15:2

Then also consider the point Jesus makes about his most faithful servant:

Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ~Matthew 24:45-51

If Christ takes this position about his most faithful servant, saying that even he is liable to be thrown in with the hypocrites and if Paul continues to exhort his disciples questioning them in whether they believed in vain, then we are sure that there is some matter of free will in being saved.

So both are happening at the same time; both being predestined and also having the will to choose to be saved. And we see this perspective here in this scripture:

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. ~Matthew 24:24

So it will appear as though there will be some elect as becoming deceived though God knew their hearts from the beginning that they would.

The answer to all this is the difference between what man sees and understands to be the church and what God sees and understands to be the church. God knows those who are his:

But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” ~2 Timothy 2:19

So then in regards to what we are able to tell, man can lose his salvation and has choice in whether he will be saved or not and we are to live in that regard "working out our salvation with fear and trembling." But in regards to God our election is sure for it says:

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” ~John 10:28-30

So to sum this entire thing up, we see all of this at work in one passage here:

And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. ~Mark 13:20

Therefore, we all are saved where our salvation depends on our circumstance but God for whom he has chosen, makes sure that there is a way of escape for us so that we may live before him.

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. ~1 Corinthians 10:13

So again, in regards to what we see, we are saved dependent on what we choose to do, but in regards to God, he saves us himself by keeping us from what is too much for us to handle, even to the end of time he will change time so that we are saved.

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. ~Romans 8:37-39

Click to expand...

Your first three verses have nothing to do with predestination as you're explaining it.

Mark 13:20 is speaking about the Jews.

I'm sorry, you've written too much and I can't respond to all.

Mountainmanbob said:

Seems that RC is saying that we have free will in certain areas and in other areas we don't?

It's hard for man to grasp this.
We always think that we like what is fair. Fair according to man and his simple little thoughts.

M-Bob

Click to expand...

We don't have the free will that God has.
I could want to fly in my will, but I won't be able to.
Only God has total free will.
Some will say we don't have free will because they understand it as I stated above.
But, as I said before, biblically it only means our free will choice to make a moral decision.
For instance Deuteronomy 30:19 or Joshua 24:15.

GodsGrace101 said:

Your first three verses have nothing to do with predestination as you're explaining it.
Mark 13:20 is speaking about the Jews.

Click to expand...

I'm not mistaken at all. The first three verses are simply speaking of the reality of being predestined by God for salvation. And that is exactly how I am explaining it.

If you wish to disagree with someone you're going to have to do better. The disagreement is plain in your case but the reasoning you left out! Why would you do such a thing? It seems you're only interested in expressing your opinion but don't want anyone to know why you have this opinion. You are entirely unaccountable therefore and are not seeking the truth which comes from above.

Mark 13:20 is most certainly not referring to the Jews at all but is referring to the end times which is those last days of these last days. The end times are specifically referring to the time it takes Jesus Christ in heaven to open the first seal all the way to opening the 7th seal and completing this seal which has 7 trumpets and completing the 7th trumpet which has 7 bowls of God's wrath. The corresponding time on earth for the time it takes to complete those heavenly actions are known as "the end times."

But even if we consider the "elect" to be Jews in this instance it does not change anything about the argument. So you are mistaken, the elect are the elect whether they are Jews or not, as it states here:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. ~Romans 10:12

So again, you've stated your belief about something without offering your reasoning. This is a huge mistake to do because it makes you out to be the authority in the situation, which you are not as it says:

Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. ~Matthew 23:10

If Christ were to teach us here, then we would take this stance here:

Let us choose what is right; let us know among ourselves what is good. ~Job 34:4

And the only way to do that is to reason.

Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. ~Isaiah 1:18

Mountainmanbob said:

Yes, a little.
No theologian here up top the mountain.
Maybe you could share a little?
M-Bob

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Pelagius, a Catholic who was condemned for his heretical belief on free will, taught that man could find God and justify himself through his own free will to choose right from wrong.

The Catholic Church condemned his teaching and stated that man cannot begin to believe without first being drawn by God's Holy Spirit. Man has free will to choose to believe what God gives him to believe.(Abraham)

Man cannot justify himself through free will. Man has to have Grace. Only through Jesus can we find justification.

As Sproul pointed out, pagan free will negates God from the equation.

Kevin Snow said:

I'm not mistaken at all. The first three verses are simply speaking of the reality of being predestined by God for salvation. And that is exactly how I am explaining it.

If you wish to disagree with someone you're going to have to do better. The disagreement is plain in your case but the reasoning you left out! Why would you do such a thing? It seems you're only interested in expressing your opinion but don't want anyone to know why you have this opinion. You are entirely unaccountable therefore and are not seeking the truth which comes from above.

Mark 13:20 is most certainly not referring to the Jews at all but is referring to the end times which is those last days of these last days. The end times are specifically referring to the time it takes Jesus Christ in heaven to open the first seal all the way to opening the 7th seal and completing this seal which has 7 trumpets and completing the 7th trumpet which has 7 bowls of God's wrath. The corresponding time on earth for the time it takes to complete those heavenly actions are known as "the end times."

But even if we consider the "elect" to be Jews in this instance it does not change anything about the argument. So you are mistaken, the elect are the elect whether they are Jews or not, as it states here:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. ~Romans 10:12

So again, you've stated your belief about something without offering your reasoning. This is a huge mistake to do because it makes you out to be the authority in the situation, which you are not as it says:

Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. ~Matthew 23:10

If Christ were to teach us here, then we would take this stance here:

Let us choose what is right; let us know among ourselves what is good. ~Job 34:4

And the only way to do that is to reason.

Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. ~Isaiah 1:18

Click to expand...

Romans 8:29-30 is speaking about HOW we get saved.
God did not predestine anyone for salvation.
John 3:16 FOR WHOEVER BELIEVES
WHOEVER can choose to believe in God.

But God did foreknow who would believe in Him and be saved.
Salvation economy teaches us that we will be saved in a particular way --- through Jesus the Christ.

Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Those whom God FOREKNEW would accept Jesus, He PREDESTINED to BECOME conformed to the image of His Son. They are predestined to be like Jesus, NOT to be saved.

Jesus is the first-born among many saved brethren.

Whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, He also called. God calls all men to salvation.
Romans 1:19-20 Some do not accept the call, but God knew who would.

Those that respond to the call are justified and saved, those who are justified will also be glorified. (at the resurrection).

Ephesians 1:5
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

God decided before the beginning of time that we would be predestined as son THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. This also is speaking to a method of salvation. God invites all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

Ephesians 1:11
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

In Christ is our reason for living and our purpose.
We will serve His purpose.

Philippians 2:12 says that we are to work out our own salvation.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2 also tell us that we work together with God and it goes on to speak of the ministry. I don't know why you posted this...

I also fail to understand why you posted 1 Corinthians 15:12.

God does not pick and choose who will be saved,
He desires all men to be saved.

Oloyedelove said:

When was Paul under the law? Was it when he became a believer or before?
Was it not Paul that taught that we are not under the law in the same Romans 7 and goes on to explain that?

Click to expand...

If you read the whole chapter and think Paul's struggle is only before he was unsaved, you clearly need some help with reading comprehension.

GodsGrace101 said:

God does not pick and choose who will be saved,
He desires all men to be saved.

Click to expand...

It's just grammar, or whatever, or not..... As Written in His Word, God does pick us, Ekklesia, to be His, by His Will we are born again - NOT by the will of man, NOR of the flesh. He grants us eternal life in and by and through our Master, Savior, the Messiah Jesus.

Yes, He desires all men to be saved. Just as His Word Says .... that is no contradiction.

But also , as Written in His Word, few ever find the narrow Road to Life - JESUS! , while many remain on the wide way to destruction apart from Jesus.

Invalidusername said:

If you read the whole chapter and think Paul's struggle is only before he was unsaved, you clearly need some help with reading comprehension.

Click to expand...

Actually, many scholars with "excellent" reading comprehension in many languages
fail to understand Scripture (all Scripture, not just Paul)

Yarddog said:

Pelagic, a Catholic who was condemned for his heretical belief on free will, taught that man could find God and justify himself through his own free will to choose right from wrong.

The Catholic Church condemned his teaching and stated that man cannot begin to believe without first being drawn by God's Holy Spirit. Man has free will to choose to believe what God gives him to believe.(Abraham)

Man cannot justify himself through free will. Man has to have Grace. Only through Jesus can we find justification.

As Sproul pointed out, pagan free will negates God from the equation.

Click to expand...

Could you please quote your source?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It's just grammar, or whatever, or not..... As Written in His Word, God does pick us, Ekklesia, to be His, by His Will we are born again - NOT by the will of man, NOR of the flesh. He grants us eternal life in and by and through our Master, Savior, the Messiah Jesus.

Yes, He desires all men to be saved. Just as His Word Says .... that is no contradiction.

But also , as Written in His Word, few ever find the narrow Road to Life - JESUS! , while many remain on the wide way to destruction apart from Jesus.

Click to expand...

Are you calvinist in theology?
If so, I understand what you're saying, even though I don't agree with it.

If not, please explain better.

GodsGrace101 said:

Romans 8:29-30 is speaking about HOW we get saved.
God did not predestine anyone for salvation.
John 3:16 FOR WHOEVER BELIEVES
WHOEVER can choose to believe in God.

But God did foreknow who would believe in Him and be saved.
Salvation economy teaches us that we will be saved in a particular way --- through Jesus the Christ.

Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Those whom God FOREKNEW would accept Jesus, He PREDESTINED to BECOME conformed to the image of His Son. They are predestined to be like Jesus, NOT to be saved.

Jesus is the first-born among many saved brethren.

Whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, He also called. God calls all men to salvation.
Romans 1:19-20 Some do not accept the call, but God knew who would.

Those that respond to the call are justified and saved, those who are justified will also be glorified. (at the resurrection).

Ephesians 1:5
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

God decided before the beginning of time that we would be predestined as son THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. This also is speaking to a method of salvation. God invites all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

Ephesians 1:11
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

In Christ is our reason for living and our purpose.
We will serve His purpose.

Philippians 2:12 says that we are to work out our own salvation.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2 also tell us that we work together with God and it goes on to speak of the ministry. I don't know why you posted this...

I also fail to understand why you posted 1 Corinthians 15:12.

God does not pick and choose who will be saved,
He desires all men to be saved.

Click to expand...

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. ~ John 17:9

If God ONLY foreknew then this would not be right of Christ to pray but he should pray for ALL people. But as it says here:

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger. ~Romans 9:11-12

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
~Romans 9:14-16

For the very fact that it does not depend on HUMAN WILL then we KNOW that God predestines us according to HIS WILL.