RC Sproul -- free will ???

Oloyedelove · May 20, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
It has taken me some years to get (a little) grasp on this. MB

An excellent very short video.
Please comment only after watching.

Everything he said in that video is 100% scriptural.

Cement · May 20, 2018

I have seen atheist do many good things and Paul speaks about Gentiles Romans 2:14 doing good works because God put into men’s hearts the his law. Romans 1:21 also talks about the believers who even though they they knew God did not glorify him and by their actions denied him. Does the Bible say that anyone is righteous of themselves? No. Does the Bible state that all men are totally depraved and can’t do anything but Sin before God? I have not found it anywhere to support such a claim. My personal experiences prove to me that this is a heretical doctrine. People can choose to worship and follow God or not it’s up to them. Jesus is the perfect being yet many who know of him still cynically mock him and deny him. Their hearts are the ones who are darkened and not some atheist who is trying to reason his own morality.

Oloyedelove · May 20, 2018

Invalidusername said:
That's a command from Paul and it's not saying believers are unable to sin but that they shouldn't.

Even Paul himself struggled with sin, Romans 7: "14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it."

That struggle in Romans 7 was before his salvation, so that's a very bad example you're making there...

Invalidusername · May 20, 2018

Oloyedelove said:
That struggle in Romans 7 was before his salvation, so that's a very bad example you're making there...

Incorrect. If it was before he was saved then how could he have the Spirit?

Think.

Micah888 · May 20, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
Please comment only after watching.

Since I am fully aware that R.C. Sproul holds to Reformed Theology (Calvinism) I will not be watching this video.

As far as I (and many other Christians) are concerned TULIP is NOT the true Gospel at all. It originated with Augustine and was accepted by the Reformers without even questioning the validity of these ideas.

The issue is this: How do sinners come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? And the answer is quite simple. It is the supernatural POWER of the Gospel and the supernatural POWER of the Holy Spirit which bring men to repentance and faith. A couple of the best examples of why TULIP is false is found in Acts chapters 2 and 10.

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

SINNERS ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY THE GOSPEL
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did God predestine only 3,000 Jews to be saved that day, and did He decree the rest of the Jews to damnation? Not likely.

God had chosen the nation of Israel to be His instrument in order to bring the Messiah and the Gospel to the whole world. He could not possibly have predetermined that the majority of Jews should be eternally damned. It was their own FREE WILL CHOICE to either believe the Gospel or disbelieve it. But as far as God was concerned, He wanted them all to be saved.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37)

Please notice "and YE would not". Does that not speak of free will to either believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or reject Him?

Kevin Snow · May 20, 2018

Micah888 said:
Since I am fully aware that R.C. Sproul holds to Reformed Theology (Calvinism) I will not be watching this video.

As far as I (and many other Christians) are concerned TULIP is NOT the true Gospel at all. It originated with Augustine and was accepted by the Reformers without even questioning the validity of these ideas.

The issue is this: How do sinners come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? And the answer is quite simple. It is the supernatural POWER of the Gospel and the supernatural POWER of the Holy Spirit which bring men to repentance and faith. A couple of the best examples of why TULIP is false is found in Acts chapters 2 and 10.

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

SINNERS ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY THE GOSPEL
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did God predestine only 3,000 Jews to be saved that day, and did He decree the rest of the Jews to damnation? Not likely.

God had chosen the nation of Israel to be His instrument in order to bring the Messiah and the Gospel to the whole world. He could not possibly have predetermined that the majority of Jews should be eternally damned. It was their own FREE WILL CHOICE to either believe the Gospel or disbelieve it. But as far as God was concerned, He wanted them all to be saved.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37)

Please notice "and YE would not". Does that not speak of free will to either believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or reject Him?

You should read my two posts I made answering this situation.

mkgal1 · May 20, 2018

This topic has always made my head spin, so I can't even read the other posts (nor can I formulate my own argument). I'll just copy and paste from the Orthodox site what I believe (in agreement):

St Andrew Greek Orthodox said:
Grace and free will. As we have seen, writes His Eminence Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, "the fact that man is in God's image means among other things that he possesses free will. God wanted a son, not a slave. The Orthodox Church rejects any doctrine of grace which might seem to infringe upon man's freedom. To describe the relation between the grace of God and free will of man, Orthodoxy uses the term cooperation or synergy (synergeia); in Saint Paul's words: "We are fellow-workers (synergoi) with God" (1 Corinthians 3:9). If a man is to achieve full communion (fellowship) with God, he cannot do so without God's help, yet he must also play his own part: man as well as God must make his contribution to the common work, although what God does is of immeasurably greater importance than what man does. The incorporation of man into Christ and his union with god require the cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will. (A Monk of the Eastern Church, Orthodox Spiritualit, p. 23). The supreme example of synergy is the Mother of God (see p. 263).

The West (The Latin Church), since time of Augustine and the Pelagian controversy, has discussed this question of grace and free will in somewhat different terms; and many brought up in the Augustinian tradition--particularly Calvanists (Protestants)--have viewed the Orthodox belief of 'synergy' with some suspicion. Does it not ascribe too much to man's free will, and too little to God? Yet in reality the Orthodox teaching is very straightforward, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in" (Revelation 3:20). God knocks, but waits for man to open the door--He does not break it down. The grace of God invites all but compels none. In the words of Saint John Chrysostom: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no on" (Sermon on the words 'Saul, Saul...). 'It is for God to grant His grace,' said Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died 386 A.D.); "your task is to accept that grace and to guard it" (Catechetical Orations, 1, 4). But it must not be imagined that because a man accepts and guards God's grace, he thereby earns 'merit'. God's gifts are free gifts, and man can never have any claims upon his maker. But man, while he cannot 'merit' salvation, must certainly work for it, since "faith without works is dead" (St. James 2:17).

God gave Adam free will--the power to choose between good and evil--and it therefore rested with Adam either to accept the vocation set before him or to refuse it. He refused it. Instead of continuing along the path marked out for him by God, he turned aside and disobeyed God. Adam's fall consisted essentially in his disobedience of the will of God; he set up his own will against the Divine Will, and so by his own act he separated himself from God. As a result, a new form of existence appeared on earth--that of disease and death."

"The Orthodox teaching of salvation is based on the doctrine of free will. In his fall man did not lose his free will. Man could still choose to be with God or without Him--he just could not move by himself back towards God, as the path was closed by the "ancestral" or "original sin."

Christ cleared that path, and now our salvation is the matter solely of our choice. God honors our choice--whatever it is. This is the reason God does not make demons disappear: God respects their free will, as free will is a feature of divinity (that, unfortunately, can be misused.) We are saved through cooperation of our will with God's--called synergy in Orthodox Christian theology--the doctrine famously expressed by Saint Athanasius the Great as "God does not save us without us." Christ Himself promised His response to those seeking His help: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" (St. Matthew 7:7-8).~The Free Will of Man According to the Holy Orthodox Christian Church

GraceBro · May 20, 2018

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:39-40

You can't refuse what you don't have the free will to accept.

Almost five minutes of corrupting the Gospel in order to hold on to the belief that man does not have free will to choose.

Andrew Jeremiah · May 20, 2018

It seemed to me at the end that Sproul left them contemplative/speechless.

RC1970 · May 20, 2018

GraceBro said:
"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:39-40

You can't refuse what you don't have the free will to accept.

Almost five minutes of corrupting the Gospel in order to hold on to the belief that man does not have free will to choose.

Everyone refuses to come to Him until they are quickened.

The Bible says in Ephesians 2:4-5, But God, who is rich in mercy,
for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)

Spiritually dead people cannot choose the things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Mountainmanbob · May 20, 2018

RC1970 said:
Spiritually dead people cannot choose the things of God.

Sounds like in the case of one being Called (Chosen) there is no free will?

I agree with that.

Many are Called
few are Chosen.

M-Bob

GraceBro · May 20, 2018

RC1970 said:
Everyone refuses to come to Him until they are quickened.

The Bible says in Ephesians 2:4-5, But God, who is rich in mercy,
for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.)

Spiritually dead people cannot choose the things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14: The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Spiritual death is not about a person's ability to choose or not, it is simply the condition of a person prior to salvation because of Adam's sin in the Garden (Genesis 2:17). Spiritual death is the condition all people are born in because we come into this world in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their savior then the life of God is restored to them through the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is what it means to be born again or quickened. 1 Corinthians 2:14 is about how an unbeliever, someone spiritually dead to God, cannot understand the things of God because the Holy Spirit of God, who discerns God's truth, is not in them. It has nothing to do with free will. Similarly, Ephesians 2:4-5, is about God making believers alive by coming to indwell us at the moment of salvation and that it is God's grace and mercy that saves us not our works. Again, this is not about free will. As I stated before, if you can refuse something as stated in John 5:39-40, it means you have a choice. We will just have to agree to disagree. Grace and peace.

Micah888 · May 20, 2018

Andrew Jeremiah said:
It seemed to me at the end that Sproul left them contemplative/speechless.

Even the apostle Paul would be speechless after hearing this version of the Gospel.

ladodgers6 · May 20, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
It has taken me some years to get (a little) grasp on this. MB

An excellent very short video.
Please comment only after watching.

I love R.C. Sproul. Yes Free Will is a complicated subject. But once you get the gist of it, you understand the plight of mankind. One of the common mistakes people make of Calvinism is they believe we deny Free Will. Sinners are not force to sin. They sin willingly by their Free Will choice.

What Luther and Calvin taught, was that sinners are bound in sin. What does this mean? Their wills are bound by what they Love to so; desire, appetite, the heart of stone. They Love the darkness, and hate the light. So they do what they WANT! Nobody forces them to sin.

Here is Calvin & Augustine on Free Will:

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
- John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

"To will is of nature but to will aright is of grace." - Augustine

bling · May 20, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
Sounds like in the case of one being Called (Chosen) there is no free will?

I agree with that.

Many are Called
few are Chosen.

M-Bob

I was wondering if you were still around.

I listen to all RC Sproul had to say and I agree with somethings but disagree with his assumptions which lead to his conclusion, which he does not address:

The purpose of sin in helping humans fulfill their earthly objective is not addressed, so what is sin’s purpose?
The Bible does not call Adam & Eve’s first sinning a “fall” nor does it say human nature changed unless it is felt “knowledge of good and evil” is a fall and change in nature. Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had so why would our “nature” have to change for us to sin?
Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was totally dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your accepting His Love (charity/grace/mercy/forgiveness) where you are today?
The main issue: we can agree for man to make the free will choice to; join God/Love God/accept salvation/personally chose to be unselfish, would make man worthy of something even if it is just a little something and we know sinful unsaved man is not worthy of anything “good”. Unsaved man is hell bound, so why should he love the being sending him to hell?
Answer: All mature adults do have free will to make at least one choice and that choice is to wimp out/ give up/surrender or be a good soldier, be macho accepting what you fully deserve, and pay the piper. There are times in every mature adult’s life where the situation he/she has gotten themselves into will bring them to their senses and at these times they can choose to surrender or continue spiraling down. At the moment of choosing to surrender does not mean you love your enemy, done something noble, done something worthy of anything (you still hate Him), because of previous war crimes you deserve a torturous death, but being willing to accept (your enemy) God’s charity will allow God to shower you with unbelievable gifts. (This is like the prodigal on story and the prodigal son did nothing worthy of what he got).
Man’s earthly objective require a very limited amount of autonomous free will, so out of God’s Love for man, God provides mature adults with this limited free will.

Lot more can be said but if you or someone else could address each question we could move on.

Andrew Jeremiah · May 20, 2018

Micah888 said:
Even the apostle Paul would be speechless after hearing this version of the Gospel.

Actually, it was Paul of whom RCS learned. Paul was a staunch "God is a respecter of persons" kinda guy.
Paul taught election, predestination, God's will, all that was revealed in letter in the OT God gave Paul an understanding of the spirit.

Such as the Law was type and shadow of the Promised Holy Spirit.

Oloyedelove · May 20, 2018

Invalidusername said:
Incorrect. If it was before he was saved then how could he have the Spirit?

Think.

Pls go read the chapter again...

Micah888 · May 20, 2018

Andrew Jeremiah said:
Actually, it was Paul of whom RCS learned.

You must be thinking of some other Paul. Here is what the apostle Paul said by divine inspiration:

1 TIMOTHY 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [RCS DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS]

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. [RCS DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS]

ACTS 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: [RCS DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS]

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. [RCS DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS]

Invalidusername · May 20, 2018

Oloyedelove said:
Pls go read the chapter again...

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Anguspure · May 20, 2018

Mountainmanbob said:
It has taken me some years to get (a little) grasp on this. MB

An excellent very short video.
Please comment only after watching.

Awesome brother! Thanks so much. Clarifies much.

RC Sproul -- free will ???

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