Changing the Bible Sabbath by presumption alone ?

W2L · May 15, 2018

I heard a famous baptist tv preacher say that we still had to observe sabbath. Of course i assume he referred to sunday worship. I was shocked by this mans ignorance because he sounds so reasonable most of the time. Of course it might be me who is ignorant. Either way i see no command to follow any day, so i walk in liberty over such things. Sure Isaiah does talk about sabbath in the new heaven and new earth, but i assume it has a spiritual meaning instead of being literal. Again maybe its my ignorance, but we all gotta walk according to what we know, and not according to what we don't know.

Marco70 · May 15, 2018

Question
How many times is it written in the NT Gentile converts must observe a set Saturday Sabbath?
Answer: Zero

OldWiseGuy · May 15, 2018

If the Law reveals all truth why do we need the Spirit?
John 16:13

BobRyan · May 15, 2018

BobRyan said: ↑
Matthew 5 "do not even think that I came to reduce or abolish the LAW"
Mark 2:27 "the SABBATH was MADE for mankind"

Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met in the synagogues for Gospel preaching. And it is not a "mystery" as to how they were keeping the Sabbath "every Sabbath".

Question for you JLB - how many times is the term "Sabbath" used in the NT to refer to the Bible Sabbath of Exodus 20 -- but observed on a different day?

Answer: zero.

1. Many folks complain about the "mere quote" of the text as we see in your post.
2. The text is "irrefutable"
3. The text is very "old"

JLB777 said:
I agree and teach the Ten Commandments are eternal and the Church Is to keep them.

And so also do the many pro-Sunday groups in my signature line. You take a position that is very popular among Bible scholars.

I affirm you for doing so.

But as you may notice - the 99.9% postings here by those who oppose the Bible Sabbath is almost always against "the TEN" or any statement affirming "the TEN".

My question to you is where are the scriptures in the New Testament that instruct us how to observe the Sabbath under the New Covenant.

My question for you is where is the NT text saying that the scriptures telling us HOW to keep the Bible Sabbath have been deleted??.

Where does the NT say that the Sabbath remains as long as we do not keep it "HOW" God said it is to kept in the actual Sabbath Commandment
-on the seventh day "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10
- a day of rest Ex 20:8-10
- a day of holy convocation Lev 23:3

Where is it that the NT says "ok all ten remain as long as you don't keep Sabbath the way God said to keep it in the actual commandment"???

In your case you insist that it goes right down to the very wording of the Commandment that has been "invisibly changed".

Changed from "the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" into "any day you wish is THE Sabbath of the LORD" or "any way you wish is how to keep that 7th day Sabbath holy".

The burden of proof is on those who make such extreme assumptions.

You assume the salient point in your argument when you go to "Assume it is changed or details deleted and start over when reading the Jewish authors of the NT writing about God's Sabbath. So then if they still 'mean it' they must 'repeat it' ".

It would be like saying "find 'do not take God's name in vain' in the book of Titus and if you don't find it then it is up for changes" -- how in the world would inserts of that form be "merely assumed to be true"??.

Question for you: How many times is the term "Sabbath" used in the NT to refer to some day of the week that is NOT the 7th day??

Answer: zero.

The OT specification for observance of the Bible Sabbath spoken by God -
1. The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) Ex 20:10
2. A day of rest - Exodus 20:8-11 - no secular activity Isaiah 8:13
3. A day of "holy convocation" Lev 23:3

Question for you: What NT text says Sabbath commandment must not be kept with the specifications directed by God in scripture? ( i.e. in the OT)

Answer: there is not one such text.

JLB777 said:
Bob, do you go to a synagogue to reason with unsaved Jews on the Sabbath?
JLB

Doing so is not against my religion.

Question for you: What NT text says Sabbath commandment must not be kept with the specifications directed by God in scripture? ( i.e. in the OT)

BobRyan · May 15, 2018

JLB777 said:
Bob, do you go to a synagogue to reason with unsaved Jews on the Sabbath?
JLB

Doing so is not against my religion.

Question for you: What NT text says Sabbath commandment must not be kept with the specifications directed by God in scripture? ( i.e. in the OT)

Imagine if you will your "sunday Bible" where it says
"Every week-day-1 which they called the Lord's Day in remembrance of Christ's resurrection - they gathered and persuaded both Jews and gentiles about the Gospel. And those who heard believed Lord's day after Lord's day. In fact every Lord's day which is week-day-1.".

If you had such a text I might be tossing it over and over trying to find out if there was some mistake in the way you quoted it.

At times you have imagine for us that the term "Sabbath" as used in the NT does not reference any day of the week at all - no matter what God's Word says to the contrary in His command on that subject. Yet as we see in Acts 18:4 and Acts 17 and Acts 13 and ... it is the 7th day Bible Sabbath that they are referencing.

But since you have no such week-day-1 texts to support the alternative -- there is nothing for me to be skeptical about -- and nothing for you to defend.

So then that leaves you coming after all the "Sabbath after Sabbath" and "Every Sabbath" texts in the Bible.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

OldWiseGuy · May 15, 2018

The Sabbath is the seventh day, Saturday.
It is a day of 'rest and repose'.
Israel was commanded to assemble on the Sabbath, but that command was added to the commandment, which is simply to rest from ordinary work, and to memorialize the day.
The NT church assembled on the Sabbath out of tradition and necessity (unlike us they didn't have two days off per week).
Today we can rest on the Sabbath, and assemble on Sunday (or Sunday evening, or Wednesday evening).
Best of both worlds.

There is much more to learn about the ten commandments as well that most are unaware of, mainly that the commands are actually presented backwards; the last being the first, the first being the last, in the prophetic/fulfillment sense. This places the Sabbath command as the seventh one. Interesting.

BobRyan · May 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
The Sabbath is the seventh day, Saturday.
It is a day of 'rest and repose'.

And a day of "Holy Convocation" Lev 23:3
And a day for refraining from secular activity - Isaiah 58:13

OldWiseGuy said:
T
Today we can rest on the Sabbath, and assemble on Sunday (or Sunday evening, or Wednesday evening).

And "also" ignore whatever God's Ten Commandments say???

Or "in addition" to honoring God's ten Commandments?

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

BobRyan · May 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Israel was commanded to assemble on the Sabbath, .

And was given the "New Covenant" - Jeremiah 31:31-33

OldWiseGuy · May 15, 2018

BobRyan said:
And was given the "New Covenant" - Jeremiah 31:31-33

We know who the "house of Judah" is but who today is the "house of Israel" (the scripture isn't about the church)? This scripture supports what Paul taught, that there would be a "change" in the law; from the 'letter' to the 'spirit'; but what does this actually mean? Is it simply a no, really change, or is there much more to it? I already have the ability to refrain from stealing, coveting, lying, murdering, lusting, etc. Is the new covenant is just a no, really rehash of the old? Is that what Christ meant by "fulfilling" the law?

Marco70 · May 15, 2018

The core of the NC, repeated from Jeremiah:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary
Heb10:16-18
It is no longer an external law written on tablets of stone, but an internal law written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer. What is in your mind, you in your mind must know. Which makes it kinda futile to discuss, or try and persuade Christians as to which law they are obliged to follow.
The law in your heart, means you in your heart want to live as God desires you to live(simply put)
Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. Now if this only refers to past sins, you MUST live under a righteousness of observing the law, in which case we would have to remove half the books of the NT from our bibles, for then Paul preached a false message. Because your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more, sacrifices for sin is no longer necessary. Sacrifices for sins were for those IN the OC. So Paul was correct!
So if you transgress the law, you are not under the condemnation of the law, for, your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.
Is this a licence to sin?
No! for the law is in your heart, therefore you in your heart want to follow what has been placed there. The fact your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more, doesn’t change that one bit. Because the law is in your heart, you in your heart you no longer want to live according to your natural desires, but according to how God wants you to live. In this sense, you have been born again.
Jesus said to Nicodemus: Ye MUST(MUST) be born again. It is not an option, it is pivotal. For Christ will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart want to live as His Father desires them to.
But has everyone who goes to church truly been born again?

BobRyan · May 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
We know who the "house of Judah" is but who today is the "house of Israel"

House of Judah and House of Israel - as Jeremiah and his readers would have known the terms - could not possibly have been construed to "Exclude all Jews".

We probably both know that.

However there is absolutely no way to exclude the church from the New Covenant.

JLB777 · May 16, 2018

BobRyan said:
Question for you: What NT text says Sabbath commandment must not be kept with the specifications directed by God in scripture?

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
Galatians 4:9-11

God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

Paul teaches them about returning to the law, and the observance of days [Sabbaths] which will bring them back into bondage.

JLB

OldWiseGuy · May 16, 2018

BobRyan said:
House of Judah and House of Israel - as Jeremiah and his readers would have known the terms - could not possibly have been construed to "Exclude all Jews".

We probably both know that.

However there is absolutely no way to exclude the church from the New Covenant.

You lost me here. :scratch:

OldWiseGuy · May 16, 2018

JLB777 said:
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
Galatians 4:9-11

God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

Paul teaches them about returning to the law, and the observance of days [Sabbaths] which will bring them back into bondage.

JLB

True. The law is our "schoolmaster" even today, but we have to graduate at some point.

JLB777 · May 17, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
True. The law is our "schoolmaster" even today, but we have to graduate at some point.

The scriptures are very clear that Jesus came to redeem those under the law.

This pertained to the natural children of Abraham, and to some proselytes who chose to live among them.

The law of Moses never pertained to Gentiles living in their own land.

Among other things such as pointing the Jews to Christ, through shadows and types, and hidden imagery, as well as becoming a "fence" around the Covenant, because of transgressions, the law imposed requirements about returning to Jerusalem, each year, which resulted in the Jews living in other parts of Israel and even in other nations, being in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, to hear the Gospel, and be filled with the Spirit, and return to where they were from to spread the good news to rest of the world.

Now that that has been accomplished, the law [having served it's purpose] has become obsolete and has vanished away, having been nailed to the cross and taken out of the way.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17

In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

In addition, the ten commandments, did not originate with Moses and are God's eternal commandments, which we are to obey as the body of Christ.

Now that the law of Moses , which was temporary, is no longer a part of the Covenant, we are to keep the Sabbath the way Abraham did, or refer to what Jesus and His Apostles commands us about keeping the Sabbath.

That being said, the weekly Sabbath is a shadow of the rest to come, when the Lord returns and we "rest" with Him for 1000 years here on earth, which is that 7th Day.

JLB

OldWiseGuy · May 17, 2018

JLB777 said:
Now that the law of Moses , which was temporary, is no longer a part of the Covenant, we are to keep the Sabbath the way Abraham did, or refer to what Jesus and His Apostles commands us about keeping the Sabbath.

That being said, the weekly Sabbath is a shadow of the rest to come, when the Lord returns and we "rest" with Him for 1000 years here on earth, which is that 7th Day.
JLB

What are the new covenant requirements concerning the Sabbath?

yeshuaslavejeff · May 18, 2018

Jesus Heals. Follow Jesus.

Marco70 · May 18, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
What are the new covenant requirements concerning the Sabbath?

But many after drinking the old wine don't want the new, for they say: The old is better Luke5:39

OldWiseGuy · May 18, 2018

Marco70 said:
But many after drinking the old wine don't want the new, for they say: The old is better Luke5:39

The "old" went down easier, that's for sure.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait (difficult) is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

JLB777 · May 19, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
What are the new covenant requirements concerning the Sabbath?

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. Romans 15:5-6

He who and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

Loving God, and loving people is for everyday of the week.

JLB

Changing the Bible Sabbath by presumption alone ?

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