Was peter naked while fishing?

Radagast said:

If not a drag net, then a trammel net, as I said. A net that would be dragged to shore.

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W2L said:

I have heard it said, by some posters, that Peter fished in the nude. They cite this scripture below. However it says Peter took off his outer garment. But did Peter have under garments on under his outer garment?

John 21:7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water.

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W2L said:

We have heard the word naked/stripped debated. I wonder if anyone knows what the Greek words for "outer garment" mean?

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W2L said:

Thanks. What do you think of the words "outer garment"? What does the greek say about this?

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W2L said: ↑
I have heard it said, by some posters, that Peter fished in the nude.

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Mountainmanbob said:

I'll tell you one thing for sure
you want to be real careful when casting with that fish hook.
I saw one go through my friends ear.
After witnessing that, I always wear a catchers cup when I fish.
M-Bob

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LittleLambofJesus said:

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Mountainmanbob said:

Looks like there was also an under garment which was worn by the men at all times.

Jewish Dress - Dictionary definition of Jewish Dress | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

I think we all kind of knew that? I've known a lot of fishermen and none of them have ever fished in the nude.
M-Bob

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Interesting.
Guess it is best to go to the Greek texts and also see where that form of the word, #1131, is used elsewhere in the NT.

STRONGS NT 1131: γυμνός
γυμνός, γυμνή, γυμνόν, in the Sept. for עֵירֹם. and עָרום, naked, not covered;
1. properly,
a. unclad, without clothing: Mark 14:52; Revelation 3:17; Revelation 16:15; Revelation 17:16; τό γυμνόν, substantively, the naked body: ἐπί γυμνοῦ, Mark 14:51; cf. Fritzsche at the passage; (τά γυμνά, Lucian, nav. 33).
b. ill-clad: Matthew 25:36, 38, 43; Acts 19:16 (with torn garments); James 2:15; (Job 22:6; Job 24:10; Job 26:6).
c. clad in the undergarment only (the outer garment or cloak being laid aside): John 21:7; (1 Samuel 19:24; Isaiah 20:2; Hesiod, Works, 389; often in Attic; so
Strong's Number G1131 matches the Greek γυμνός (gymnos),
which occurs 15 times in 15 verses

KJV) Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord.
Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord,
he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked/stripped/gumnoV<1131>) and did cast himself into the sea.
John 21:7
ton ependuthn diezwsato hn gar gumnoV kai ebalen eauton eiV thn qalassan

Of the 15 times #1131 is used, the exact word form used is used 5 times, 2 of those in Revelation:

3:17 16:15
Revelation 3:17
because thou sayest -- I am rich, and have grown rich, and have need of nothing, and hast not known that thou art the wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked/gumnoV<1131>,
Reve 16:15
Behold! I do come as a thief; happy/blessed is he who is watching, and keeping his garments,
that he may not walk naked/gumnoV<1131>, and they may see his unseemliness,'

Here is the other verse in Revelation using #1131

Reve 17:16
The ten horns you saw, and the beast, will hate the prostitute.
They will make her desolate and naked/gumnhn<1131>, devour her flesh, and burn her up with fire.

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Mountainmanbob said:

Looks like there was also an under garment which was worn by the men at all times.

Jewish Dress - Dictionary definition of Jewish Dress | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

I think we all kind of knew that? I've known a lot of fishermen and none of them have ever fished in the nude.
M-Bob

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bugkiller said:

Nice to see an old friend.

bugkiller

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Hi W2L.
#1903 is only used 1 time, so can't see how it is used in other verses.
It appears to be a combination of the prefix words #1909, #1722 and the root word #1416 and can see why there is a lot written on it by commentators [shown at bottom of post ]].
......Some writers identify the ἐπενδύτης with the inner garment or χίτων, others suppose it was the outer garment or ἱμάτιον.
And the reason assigned, ἦν γὰρ γυμνός, they say, is that he had only the χίτων.

YLT) John 21:7
That disciple therefore, whom Jesus was loving, saith to Peter, 'The Lord it is!'
Simon Peter, therefore, having heard that it is the Lord, did gird on the outer-coat/ep-en-duthn <1903>, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea;

STRONGS NT 1903: ἐπενδύτης
ἐπενδύτης, ἐπενδυτου, ὁ (ἐπενδύνω or ἐπενδύω, which see (cf. Winers Grammar, 25; 94 (90))), an upper garment (Tertulliansuperindumentum): John 21:7, where it seems to denote a kind of linen blouse or frock which fishermen used to wear at their work. (Sophocles fragment 391 Dindorf ((248 Ahrens): Pollux 7, 45, p. 717); the Sept. twice (thrice) for מְעִיל, 1 Samuel 18:4 (Alex.); 2 Samuel 13:18; (add Leviticus 8:7 Alex.).)

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

1903. ep-en-dutes ep-en-doo'-tace from 1902; a wrapper, i.e. outer garment:--fisher's coat.
1902. ependuomai ep-en-doo'-om-ahee middle voice from 1909 and 1746; to invest upon oneself:--be clothed upon
1909. epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc
1722. en en a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by,
1416. duno doo'-no or dumi doo'-mee prolonged forms of an obsolete primary duo doo'-o (to sink) to go "down":--set.

1744. enduno en-doo'-no from 1772 and 1416; to sink (by implication, wrap (compare 1746) on
1746. enduo en-doo'-o from 1722 and 1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively):--array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on.

He are some comments from commentators on it:

John 21:7 Biblehub

21:7
Λέγει, saith) A quiet life more quickly observes Divine things, than an active life: and yet this latter furnishes an opportunity of doing so, and does not fail to produce fruit in the case of saints.—ἐπενδύτην) Suidas explains ἐπενδύτης as τὸ ἐσώτατον ἱμάτιον, the inmost garment.
But the LXX. render by the word ἐπενδύτης, מעיל (the long upper garment worn by persons of rank).—διεζώσατο, girt on himself) Peter [did so, because he] reverenced the presence of the Lord, whereas he had been previously engaged with his fellow-disciples in a more familiar manner.—γυμνὸς) He had script off (whilst fishing with his fellow-disciples) τὸν ἐπενδύτην.[401]—ἜΒΑΛΕΝ ἙΑΥΤῸΝ ΕἸς ΤῊΝ ΘΆΛΑΣΣΑΝ, he cast himself into the sea) being likely to reach the Lord sooner by swimming than by ship.
Comp. Matthew 14:28, “Peter said, Lord, if it be Thou, bid me come unto Thee on the water.”[402] The love of Jesus draws one through fires and waves.

21:7
This sudden change of fortune John at once traced to its only possible source, Ὁ Κύριός ἐστι. “Vita quieta citius observat res divinas quam activa.” Bengel. Σίμων οὖν … θάλασσαν. The different temperaments of the two Apostles as here exhibited have constantly been remarked upon; as by Euthymius, “John had the keener insight; Peter the greater ardour”. Peter τὸν ἐπενδύτην διεζώσατο.

Some writers identify the ἐπενδύτης with the inner garment or χίτων, others suppose it was the outer garment or ἱμάτιον. And the reason assigned, ἦν γὰρ γυμνός, they say, is that he had only the χίτων.
That one who was thus half-dressed might be called γυμνός is well known (see Aristoph., Clouds, 480); but it was not the outer garment round which the belt was girt, but the inner. And besides, Peter must often have appeared before Jesus in their boat expeditions without his upper garment. And to put on his Tallith when about to plunge into the sea was out of the question. He was rowing, then, with as little on as possible, probably only a subligaculum or loin-cloth, and now picks up his ἐπενδύτης, a garment worn by fishers (Theophylact), and girds it on, and casts himself into the sea.

21:7
He girt his fisher's coat unto him (for he was naked).--That is, as the words in the original clearly imply, he put on, and girded round his body the garment which workmen customarily used. This seems to have been a kind of linen frock worn over the shirt, and the Talmud has adopted the Greek word here used to express it. The word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and the rendering "fisher's coat" probably gives a correct idea of what is meant.

The common usage of the Greek and Hebrew words answering to the English word "naked," makes it probable that St. Peter was wearing some under-garment, and that reverence for the Lord, into whose presence he is about to go, led him to add to this the outer frock. (Comp. Acts 19:12.)

21:7
The word of John satisfied him, and, not seeing for himself what John saw with mental eye, he accepted the joyful news, and was the first to spring into the sea, and, with his usual energy, to cast himself at his Master's feet. He girt his coat about him (for he was naked).
The word γυνός does not mean perfectly nude. A man who had simply the χιτών or tunic upon him was practically thus regarded. The word γυμνός occurs in Isaiah 20:2; 1 Samuel 19:24; Job 24:10 in the same sense. The proper name for the tunic, or garment next the skin, was ὑποδύτης, and that which was put over the tunic was ἐπενδύτης and ἐπένδυμα (Meyer and Wettstein, in loc.).

The Talmud has Aramaized the word, calling it אפגדתא (ependetha), and used it for the workman's frock or blouse, often without sleeves, and fastened with a girdle. Dr. Salmond truly says that this reference to an act which to ordinary men would have suggested a different arrangement of dress, reveals the eye-witness. Hengstenberg suggests that Peter simply girded his upper garment for the purpose of swimming more easily; but, as Luthardt observes, with this ἐπενδύτης already upon him, he would not have been "naked" And he cast himself into the sea, intending, whatever might be the fate of the laden net, to be the first to greet and worship the Lord. Of the reception he met with John says nothing: he knew nothing.
The Lord had some special instruction for him a little later. It is not in harmony with the words, as Gerhard supposed, that Peter walked triumphantly upon the waters. Not a hint of it occurs. The hundred yards were rapidly covered, either by swimming or wading to the shore meanwhile.


[401] Wahl Clav. New Testament makes it the upper tunic, somewhat approaching to the pallium or toga, and put on between the shirt and the outer garments, and therefore different from the shirt or chemise, χιτώνισκος or ὑποδύτης. Th. ἐπὶ and ἐνδύω.—E. and T.

[402] Archbishop Whately, in a MS. note kindly furnished to me, observes, that “εἰς, with the Accusative, probably means on, upon, not into. Had Peter been going to wade or swim, he would not have grit on his coat, but rather thrown it off (unless, as Beng. suggests, from reverence to the Lord). He received, probably, an intimation, that he should now perform the miracle in which his faith had formerly failed”—viz. walking ON the water.—E. and T.

21:7
he girt his fisher's coat unto him. The Greek word here used, is manifestly the of the Hebrews; and which, the Jewish writers say (b), was a strait garment, which a man put on next his flesh to dry up the sweat; and a very proper one for Peter, who had been toiling all night, and very fit for him to swim in; and, by what follows, appears to be put on him next his flesh: for he was naked; for to suppose him entirely naked, whilst fishing, being only in company with men, and those parts of nature having a covering, which always require one, was not at all indecent and unbecoming: ....

21:7
τὸν ἐπενδύτην διεζώσατο] He had laid aside the ἐπενδύτης, and was in so far naked, which, however, does not prevent his having on the shirt, χιτωνίσκος, according to the well-known usage of γυμνός,[280] nudus, and עַרוּם (see Perizonius, ad Ael. V. H. vi. 11; Cuper. Obss. i. 7, p. 39, Interpp. zu Jes. xxx. 2; Grotius in loc). In order, however, not to appear unbecomingly in his mere shirt before Jesus, he girded around him the ἐπενδύτης, i.e. he drew it on, so that he gathered it together by means of a girdle on his body. Hengstenberg says incorrectly: he had the ἘΠΕΝΔΎΤ. on, and only girded himself in the same (accus. of closer definition), in order to be able to swim the better. The middle with accus. of a garment always denotes to gird oneself therewith (Lucian, Somm. 6, de conscrib. hist. 3). Comp. περιζώννυσθαι, Revelation 1:13.

The ἐπενδύτης is not equivalent to χιτών (Fischer, Kuinoel, Bretschneider), but an overwrap, an overcoat. Any garment drawn over may be so called (see the LXX. in Schleusner, Thes. II. p. 436; Soph, fragm. in Pollux, vii. 45; Dind. 391, comp. ἘΠΈΝΔΥΜΑ in Plut. Alex. 32); it was, however, according to Nonnus and Theophylact, in the case of fishermen, and according to the Talmud, which has even appropriated to itself the word אטונדתא, in the case of workmen generally, a linen article of clothing (possibly a short frock or blouse) which, according to the Talmud, was worn, provided with pockets, over the shirt (according to Theophylact, also over other articles of clothing).
See especially Drusius in loc. According to Euth. Zigabenus, it reached to the knees, and was without sleeves.

γυμνός] He had, in point of fact, no other clothing on except the mere shirt (comp. Dem. 583. 21 : γυμνὸν ἐν τῷ χιτωνίσκῳ); for precisely διὰ τὴν γύμνωσιν (Theodoret, Heracleus) he quickly put on the ἐπενδύτης, which had been laid aside during his work.

He reached the land swimming, not walking on the water (Grotius and several others), which is an imported addition. The ἔβαλεν ἑαυτόν graphically represents the rapid self-decision.

[280] This also in opposition to Godet, according to whom Peter was quite naked. This would have been disgraceful even amongst barbarians. See Krüger on Thuc. i. 6. 4.


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LittleLambofJesus said:

Hi bugsy.
You, Frogster and I made a good team against the "law-keepers"...........

The letter kills.

The letter kills. (2)

Frogster
Galatians is the best!

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

From what I see in this verse, it wasn't the "letter" that brought these 2 dudes back to life, but the Spirit:

Revelation 11:11
And after three days and an half, the Spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

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Mountainmanbob said: ↑
I'll tell you one thing for sure
you want to be real careful when casting with that fish hook.
I saw one go through my friends ear.
After witnessing that, I always wear a catchers cup when I fish.
M-Bob

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Just when I think I heard it all

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Mountainmanbob said:

That fish is still alive, put it back in the water.
M-Bob

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LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Hi W2L.
#1903 is only used 1 time, so can't see how it is used in other verses.
It appears to be a combination of the prefix words #1909, #1722 and the root word #1416 and can see why there is a lot written on it by commentators [shown at bottom of post ]

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bugkiller said:

Hope it took you longer to put together than it did me to read. Good post.

bugkiller

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Thanks.
The Word is worth the time.........I hope others are edified by it as I am.
Speaking of which, have you checked out my thread on the Altar in Reve 11:1?
Fascinating study.............

Which Altar is shown in Revelation 11:1

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bugkiller said:

No, my time is more limited these days. But since you provided a link I might take the extra time.

bugkiller

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W2L said:

I have heard it said, by some posters, that Peter fished in the nude.

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