I think he doesn't believe the will is fully free before we are born again, and from a point of view I would agree. Meaningly, before we are born again we can't live for the outmost purpose, we must first be born again.
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Eternal Security - Is the Gospel
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I think he doesn't believe the will is fully free before we are born again, and from a point of view I would agree. Meaningly, before we are born again we can't live for the outmost purpose, we must first be born again.
You were speaking to me about the above highlighted verse.
You did not properly represent what happened.
How dumb would I have to be to use that verse to show that God would take us back????????????????????
I was showing that one could LEAVE JESUS AND BE LOST AGAIN.
In this particular verse Paul was speaking about THE JEWS who tried to leave their legal way to salvation and "try" Jesus.
They came to a point where they could no longer feel that following Him was right because they felt guilty about leaving their religious ways.
If THEY went back to legalism they were trampling the blood of Christ underfoot and there remained FOR THEM no further sacrifice for forgiveness of sin.
A Gentile is not a Jew. A gentile was not following any legal religion of the ONE TRUE GOD. If THEY left Jesus, which they also could, they could come back any time they wanted.
I posted The Prodigal Son to show that the Father will ALWAYS take someone back as long as they don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Please do not mis-represent me.
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Yes, very true! The prodigal son is a very comforting story to us if we have been sliding away from God. The Father has his arms open wide. The story is great in love, God's love to man.
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Doug Melven
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It actually matches up quite well.
Especially with this statement you added at the end.
Unless you think God makes mistakes and gives a child of His eternal life and then for whatever reason takes it back.
Initial and ultimate salvation are not in Scripture. I don't try to understand false doctrine.
God gave us eternal life and will never reject us or be mad at us or disown us.
This I can show from Scripture without taking a verse out of context.
Isaiah 54:9-10 says God will never be mad at us.
Ephesians 1:6 says we are accepted in the Beloved.
Hebrews 10:10 says we have been perfected forever.
Isaiah 49:16 says that a mother may forget her suckling child before God could forget about us because we are continually before Him.
John 15:1-6 is not a reference to the next life, but this life.
As I said before, not all verses pertain to eternal life. Some pertain to this life, some to the next.
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
Some verses like this show we get rewards in the next life for suffering in this life.
But we must endure to see the reward.
Receiving eternal life is not dependent on our suffering or works or anything that comes from us.
It is all about Jesus Christ and God's promise.
You say you are worried about a new Christian seeing this doctrine and somehow losing there salvation.
The only reason I can think of you would say that is you think they would be like, Oh I am saved no matter what, because all my sins are forgiven I can just go live in sin.
This is wrong thinking according to what Jesus said in Luke 7:40-50
Jesus was having dinner in a Pharisee's house and a woman came in and began to wash His feet with her hair.
And the Pharisee said to himself if Jesus knew what sort of woman this was He would not let her do this, for she is a sinner.
So Jesus asked this Pharisee a question about who would love more, one who was forgiven little or one who was forgiven much?
The Pharisee replied that the one who was forgiven much.
Jesus told him that he had answered correctly.
Jesus then explained the one who is forgiven little loves little, but the one who is forgiven much, loves much.
If somebody were to say that because all there sins were forgiven then they could just go live in sin.
I would say this person does not understand what he has in Christ.
And rather than put him in fear of damnation if he doesn't live right I would explain to him what he has in Christ.
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Doug Melven
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If you believe this verse is only about Jews why would you cite it about Gentiles losing there salvation?
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Oh my.
If salvation can be lost, ANYONE can lose it.
Not only jews and not only gentiles.
Since you cannot come to comprehend the verse, why not just forget about it? Shall we continue with it sans fin?
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Most people on earth are never saved, so losing salvation wouldn't be any bigger problem for them.
However, multitudes of people who think they are saved find out on judgment day that they aren't. They lose what they only thought they had.
Ekklesia are saved in Christ Jesus by Faith, and if they are actually saved and remain saved until they die, then they are in truth eternally saved, and then it doesn't affect them either that others are not saved.
That leaves only a small group , relatively, of people who believe in osas.
Just like the general population,
some of them are saved,
some of them are not saved ......
On judgment day they find out which is which. The only ones in this group that should be very concerned is those who are not saved. If they realize this, then perhaps they can turn to Yahweh by faith in Jesus and be saved. Then they won't have a problem really unless they do somehow, like thru rebellion and unbelief , lose their newfound salvation.
However, multitudes of people who think they are saved find out on judgment day that they aren't. They lose what they only thought they had.
Ekklesia are saved in Christ Jesus by Faith, and if they are actually saved and remain saved until they die, then they are in truth eternally saved, and then it doesn't affect them either that others are not saved.
That leaves only a small group , relatively, of people who believe in osas.
Just like the general population,
some of them are saved,
some of them are not saved ......
On judgment day they find out which is which. The only ones in this group that should be very concerned is those who are not saved. If they realize this, then perhaps they can turn to Yahweh by faith in Jesus and be saved. Then they won't have a problem really unless they do somehow, like thru rebellion and unbelief , lose their newfound salvation.
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I'm sorry you feel this way. Most persons who believe in eternal security do NOT understand J and S. If they did, they would let go of eternal security lickity split.
Here is a great article that explains J and S really well. It would behoove you to read it and understand it, but it's also for those reading along that are interested...
The words justification and sanctification have largely fallen out of use in Western culture. Sadly, they are also fading from sight in the Christian church. One reason this decline is distressing is that the Bible uses the words justification and sanctification to express the saving work of Christ for sinners. That is to say, both terms lie at the heart of the biblical gospel. So, what does the Bible teach about justification and sanctification? How do they differ from one another? How do they help us understand better the believer’s relationship with Jesus Christ?
Justification is as simple as A-B-C-D. Justification is an act of God. It does not describe the way that God inwardly renews and changes a person. It is, rather, a legal declaration in which God pardons the sinner of all his sins and accepts and accounts the sinner as righteous in His sight. God declares the sinner righteous at the very moment that the sinner puts his trust in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-26, 5:16; 2 Cor. 5:21).
What is the basis of this legal verdict? God justifies the sinner solely on the basis of the obedience and death of His Son, our representative, Jesus Christ. Christ’s perfect obedience and full satisfaction for sin are the only ground upon which God declares the sinner righteous (Rom. 5:18-19; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 2:8). We are not justified by our own works; we are justified solely on the basis of Christ’s work on our behalf. This righteousness is imputed to the sinner. In other words, in justification, God puts the righteousness of His Son onto the sinner’s account. Just as my sins were transferred to, or laid upon, Christ at the cross, so also His righteousness is reckoned to me (2 Cor. 5:21).
By what means is the sinner justified? Sinners are justified through faith alone when they confess their trust in Christ. We are not justified because of any good that we have done, are doing, or will do. Faith is the only instrument of justification. Faith adds nothing to what Christ has done for us in justification. Faith merely receives the righteousness of Jesus Christ offered in the gospel (Rom. 4:4-5).
JUSTIFICATION IS A COMPLETE AND FINISHED ACT. SANCTIFICATION IS AN ONGOING AND PROGRESSIVE WORK IN OUR LIVES
Sanctification
Finally, saving faith must demonstrate itself to be the genuine article by producing good works. It is possible to profess saving faith but not possess saving faith (James 2:14-25). What distinguishes true faith from a mere claim to faith is the presence of good works (Gal. 5:6). We are in no way justified by our good works. But no one may consider himself to be a justified person unless he sees in his life the fruit and evidence of justifying faith; that is, good works.
Both justification and sanctification are graces of the gospel; they always accompany one another; and they deal with the sinner’s sin. But they differ in some important ways. First, whereas justification addresses the guilt of our sin, sanctification addresses the dominion and corruption of sin in our lives. Justification is God’s declaring the sinner righteous; sanctification is God’s renewing and transforming our whole persons—our minds, wills, affections, and behaviors. United to Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection and indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, we are dead to the reign of sin and alive to righteousness (Rom. 6:1-23; 8:1-11). We therefore are obligated to put sin to death and to present our “members to God as instruments for righteousness” (6:13; see 8:13).
Second, our justification is a complete and finished act. Justification means that every believer is completely and finally freed from condemnation and the wrath of God (Rom. 8:1, 33-34; Col. 2:13b-14). Sanctification, however, is an ongoing and progressive work in our lives. Although every believer is brought out once and for all from bondage to sin, we are not immediately made perfect. We will not be completely freed from sin until we receive our resurrection bodies at the last day.
Christ has won both justification and sanctification for His people. Both graces are the concern of faith in Jesus Christ, but in different ways. In justification, our faith results in our being forgiven, accepted, and accounted righteous in God’s sight. In sanctification, that same faith actively and eagerly takes up all the commands that Christ has given the believer. We dare not separate or conflate justification and sanctification. We do distinguish them. And, in both graces, we enter into the richness and joy of communion with Christ through faith in Him.
source: What Are Justification and Sanctification?
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We should discuss 2 Corinthians 4:17 separately.
You do cover a lot of ground!
I agree with what you say above.
The problem is that YOU believe this and I respect you for it,
but many do exactly what you say and believe they could continue in their sinful life and still be saved.
Why take the chance? Why not just tell them the truth instead of being afraid to hurt their feelings?
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That's right.
But they can lose it (Matthew 24:48-51).
Regarding John 5:24, it refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10-11).
With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).
For the same reason that we are initially born as infants but then later become born again when we become Christians.
That is, God could have skipped the infant stage and just created everyone like he created Adam.
But just as God saw a need for an infant stage, so he saw a need for initial salvation.
That's what Romans 2:6-8 says, with regard to ultimate salvation. But our righteous deeds are not our "own" insofar as we could never do them apart from abiding in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-5).
The Bible shows that not everyone can be saved (John 8:43-47).
It does. God "makes" vessels unto dishonor (Romans 9:21), also called vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22).
Also, Romans 9:11-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) only as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals whom they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).
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Christians must endure to the end to be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).
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It can't, but it can be lost by our believing dying (Hebrews 6:4-8).
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It is, just as Hebrews 10:27 is about going to hell (Revelation 14:10-11).
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Obedience is required for ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9).
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That's right.
For in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by merely having some water sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?
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Any believer in the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he or she is elect. For only elect people become believers in the Gospel (Acts 13:48b).
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No matter where Christians live, if they have enough water to drink, to cook their food, to irrigate their crops, to water their cattle, to wash themselves, and to wash their clothes, then they have enough water to pour into a tub in which they can immerse (baptize) new Christians. And if they do not have enough water to do these things, then they are in a location which is unsuitable for human habitation, and they need to move where water is available for them to survive, and to immerse (baptize) new Christians.
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He does that (John 8:36) only so long as we cooperate along with him, and don't wrongly employ our free will to return back to committing unrepentant sin (2 Peter 2:20-22), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).
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It is (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
That's ultimate salvation (Romans 8:23-55).
1 Corinthians 3:15 refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner, by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20), and the glorying in human leaders of the Church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus Christ Himself, and the everlasting wisdom of His Word the Holy Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a Christian, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, then he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).
Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
In the original Greek Textus Receptus, and in the KJV, the latter half of this verse states the condition for the first half. If the latter half is not done, then the first half does not apply, as other verses also make clear (Romans 8:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26-29).
That's what it means, just as the "live" in Romans 8:13 refers to eternal life (Romans 8:11-13).
It is, just as Matthew 7:23b is.
That is, Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).
Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).
Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.
The crowns of eternal life (James 1:12).
Because God does not take away free will (2 Peter 2:20-22).
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Hebrews 10:10,14 means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ's body on the Cross has sanctified and perfected Christians. But the perfect tense does not denote permanence. For example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have washed my child", this does not mean that the child has been made permanently clean. For after having been washed, the child can then wrongly employ his free will to go out and play in the mud. Similarly, spiritually-washed Christians (1 Corinthians 6:11) can wrongly employ their free will to go back to wallowing in the mire of sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Luke 12:45-46). Also, the "forever" in Hebrews 10:14 does not denote a permanent perfection, but means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus is perpetually applied in the ongoing, and eternal, process by which Christians are "being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14, see the original Greek tense), so long as they are repenting from and confessing to God every sin that they commit (1 John 1:9,7, Hebrews 10:26-29).
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For initial salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). But after that, faith alone is not enough (1 John 3:7) for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Titus 3:8).
It will if you don't repent (Hebrews 10:26-29).
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He can allow an even worse disease to come upon someone if there is no repentance after He has healed them (John 5:14).
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John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).
Only so long as we repent (Luke 13:3).
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The elect are initially adopted based not on how they behave, but on predestination (Ephesians 1:5). But the elect will be ultimately adopted (Romans 8:23-25), or ultimately disowned (Luke 12:45-46), based on how they behave subsequent to their initial salvation (Romans 2:6-8), their becoming Christians. Regarding unadoption and readoption every time that Christians sin and repent, no reference has been made to that. For it is only if Christians continue in a sin without repentance until death (1 John 5:16b), or until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).
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Thanks for sharing that beautiful story from the Bible!.
I think we agree on how to become a child of God, repentance and trusting in Jesus. The difference between us is that I believe we have to live in obedience after being born again, where you believe obedience isn't necessary for salvation. I understand what you are saying, that if you are born again you follow Jesus out of love and won't willingly go back to sin. I think that is true, but that is not the whole picture. We can be tempted, and we can fall into temptations. Our love for God can be blown out, and we can fall back to our old lifestyle. We can go back to living in sin.
One reason I believe this is because it happened to me. I lost my faith in God, I lost my love to God, I fell back to living in sin, I even went back to my previous "faith" which was Buddhism. But friends prayed for me, helped me and I was brought back to the fold of God.
When I say obedience, I mean out of love. You can't through your own strength live in obedience, you have to be born again. To me salvation is an "obedience, love, faith - relationship" with Jesus. It's not just about believing a fact, it's about living with Christ, living for Christ.
I don't think God cuts us off the vine just like that. He wants us on that vine, and He is taking great care of us, sprinkling us with his Holy Spirit. But if we persist in sin we will be cut off, if not today then tomorrow. But God has great patience with us.
"6 And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7 And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ 8And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’” /Luk 13
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Eternal things. Eternal sin. Sin against the Holy Spirit. Can anyone point out a person who is in an eternal state of sin? That would be anyone who is going to die in their sin. Those going to hell, could say I have eternal security. The final end of individuals is by definition the final judgement of God. Can someone who has eternal security support that with evidence? Love is eternal and there is visible evidence of it, a manifestation consequential of human activity that is visible. Jesus said His love would distinguish disciples from the world.
No dispute about every person alive having a real eternal end. It's just that it is not revealed. Divine Revelation comes to us complete in full in the person of Jesus because He is God Incarnate. Nothing can be added. He is the Revelation of God in as much as can be received by a human. God Incarnated to be a visible tangible reality among men. A sign of God and the reality of eternal life.
Jesus gave Himself to the Church and all that is authentically Christ is visible tangible, Eternal life Incarnate. Eternal reality requires evidence, that is the essence of the Incarnation. The Church He established is Incarnational. His gifts are Incarnational. Did God reveal with visible signs that any one person's' end in eternity is certain? Oh, oops, of course the resurrection of Jesus.
The opposing scripture meanings batted back and forth are a visible sign, we can hope it's not a sign of eternal reality. That's why God Incarnated and why visible signs are necessary for man to believe with certainty. God expects us to believe Truth Incarnate, truth that isn't Incarnational would be beyond what is revealed.
No dispute about every person alive having a real eternal end. It's just that it is not revealed. Divine Revelation comes to us complete in full in the person of Jesus because He is God Incarnate. Nothing can be added. He is the Revelation of God in as much as can be received by a human. God Incarnated to be a visible tangible reality among men. A sign of God and the reality of eternal life.
Jesus gave Himself to the Church and all that is authentically Christ is visible tangible, Eternal life Incarnate. Eternal reality requires evidence, that is the essence of the Incarnation. The Church He established is Incarnational. His gifts are Incarnational. Did God reveal with visible signs that any one person's' end in eternity is certain? Oh, oops, of course the resurrection of Jesus.
The opposing scripture meanings batted back and forth are a visible sign, we can hope it's not a sign of eternal reality. That's why God Incarnated and why visible signs are necessary for man to believe with certainty. God expects us to believe Truth Incarnate, truth that isn't Incarnational would be beyond what is revealed.
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These statements refer to the Elect. For the most part, they are taught to be a group that is revealed but who they are as individuals isn't revealed. Paul, comes close at the end of his life when he saw no obstacles between himself and the Lord. That is an expression of a certain hope that comes from a life of faith in sight of it's completion.
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, so that they may also obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1
[ Salutation ] Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that is in accordance with godliness,
2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble.
The condition I meant was just enough water to live. I think I was clear about that in my post. I don't think God would want to generate survival fears to give Himself to them as long as the proper form is observed. God accommodates to the conditions of life, He meets us where we're at,
as modern conditions can also make immersion an unnecessary difficulty. Traditions of men, which are helpful, but not to be clung to......Luke 11:46
And he said, “Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.
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FreeGrace2
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FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Did Jesus give you some Greek grammar lessons? lol
So what I am "hearing" here is that you don't really have a Greek expert who can support your unsubstantiated claim about the present tense.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. :0
And you'd be able to quit making such erroneous statements about it.
Did Jesus give you some Greek grammar lessons? lol
So what I am "hearing" here is that you don't really have a Greek expert who can support your unsubstantiated claim about the present tense.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. :0
I stand corrected. Stay out of the kitchen.
No, I'm questioning your claim about the present tense. And since you previously made comments about knowing a Greek expert, why haven't you inquired about the meaning of the present tense. Which would clear it all up for you.
And you'd be able to quit making such erroneous statements about it.
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FreeGrace2
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FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You just said to believe in Him and in what He says. Now you've moved the goalposts and say "do what He says".
Well, He said a lot of things. But only a few things for salvation. So you need to get your story straight.
Listen, no one is able to follow His commands perfectly.
And here's why they are not the same. We are commanded to believe in Christ for salvation. And then believers are commanded to be holy, blameless, and worthy.
Wonder why? Because change in behavior is not automatic nor guaranteed. This is a fallacy, unfortunately perpetuated by many pastors and writers.
Consider these verses and why they were written to believers:
Worthy
Eph 4:1- As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
Phil 1:27- Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
Col 1:10 - And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.
2 Thess 1:11 - With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith
Holy
Rom 12:1 - Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God — this is your spiritual act of worship
1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ — their Lord and ours:
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless
Col 1:22 - But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
1 Thess 4:4 - that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable
1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life
2 Tim 1:9 - who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of tim
2 Tim 2:21 - If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
Titus 1:8 - Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined
Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 12:14 - Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord
1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
2 Peter 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
Blameless
1 Cor 1:8 - He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
Phil 1:10 - so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ
Phil 2:14-15 - Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Peter 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him
In fact, an unbeliever who thinks that following the Law, commandments, or commands from the NT gets no closer to heaven than any atheist.
You just said to believe in Him and in what He says. Now you've moved the goalposts and say "do what He says".
Well, He said a lot of things. But only a few things for salvation. So you need to get your story straight.
Listen, no one is able to follow His commands perfectly.
This equates with belief with obedience. They are not the same.
And here's why they are not the same. We are commanded to believe in Christ for salvation. And then believers are commanded to be holy, blameless, and worthy.
Wonder why? Because change in behavior is not automatic nor guaranteed. This is a fallacy, unfortunately perpetuated by many pastors and writers.
Consider these verses and why they were written to believers:
Worthy
Eph 4:1- As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
Phil 1:27- Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
Col 1:10 - And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.
2 Thess 1:11 - With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith
Holy
Rom 12:1 - Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God — this is your spiritual act of worship
1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ — their Lord and ours:
Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless
Col 1:22 - But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
1 Thess 4:4 - that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable
1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life
2 Tim 1:9 - who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of tim
2 Tim 2:21 - If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
Titus 1:8 - Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined
Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 12:14 - Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord
1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
2 Peter 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
Blameless
1 Cor 1:8 - He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
Phil 1:10 - so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ
Phil 2:14-15 - Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Peter 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him
It would mean I was stupid, or wasn't paying attention.
Not really, as I have just explained.
Given the list of verses I am sharing, one must believe BEFORE obedience means anything.
In fact, an unbeliever who thinks that following the Law, commandments, or commands from the NT gets no closer to heaven than any atheist.
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FreeGrace2
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The good news is that it can't be lost. Jesus made that clear when He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
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