LDS Mormons and the Bible

drstevej

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I think we have several times said the JST is more of a commentary, if you are going to go word for word Greek the KJV is probably more correct.


the theology of the KJV and the JST are very different. The JST change was to fit LDS works theology.

No translation of the Greek text agrees with the JST because no greek text uses the word for sanctification. Its dangereous to mangle the Bible to fit Mormonism.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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the theology of the KJV and the JST are very different. The JST change was to fit LDS works theology.

No translation of the Greek text agrees with the JST because no greek text uses the word for sanctification. Its dangereous to mangle the Bible to fit Mormonism.

Mormonism like Jehovahs Witnesses prevent the Bible for their warped theology
 
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He is the way

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Ok. you accept the 27 Books of the New Testament as the Inspired Word of Almighty God, which I assume to also accept to be completely Infallible and Inerrant? You speak of mistakes, do you mean in the Inspired New Testament? Can you give a few examples? Can I ask what do you think about the Revelation of Peter (besides that of John in the NT), and the Book of Wisdom of Solomon, also being included in the New Testament? Are these two writings also "Inspired", like the 27 Books? Or, the book, the Shepherd of Hermas? Should these three be accepted into the NT Canon?
Here are a few mistakes:
.How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple? (a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2) (b) Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)
How many were the children of Zattu? (a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8) (b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)
Who was the father of Shealtiel? (a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12) (b) Neri’ (Luke 3:27)
The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once? (a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19) (b) No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)
I haven't read any of those books so I would not be able to say.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Here are a few mistakes:
.How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple? (a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2) (b) Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)
How many were the children of Zattu? (a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8) (b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)
Who was the father of Shealtiel? (a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12) (b) Neri’ (Luke 3:27)
The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once? (a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19) (b) No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)
I haven't read any of those books so I would not be able to say.

There are no mistakes in the original autographs of the Holy Bible, which we do not have in our possession. What we do have are very good copies of the original Hebrew and Greek Bible. If you know textual studies, then you would be aware of the fact, that there are "errors" in the Bible due to some factors. Some are known as "scribal errors", when the scribe/copyist was in the process of copying the manuscripts, wrote the wrong information down, especially when this information is dictated to them. It is very easy when copying a long list of numbers, and going line by line, for the copyist to write the wrong number in the wrong place. Then we have intentional "errors", when the copyist deliberately made changes to the text, based on their "theology". For example 1 Timothy 3:16, we have the reading of "God was manifest in the flesh", which was changed to "who was manifest in the flesh". This change removes the testimony of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. We know, for example, that the two oldest complete Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, the Codices Vatacanius and Sinaiticus, of the 4th century, were part of those copied at the request of the Emperor Constantine. We also know, that at least two of the copyists were Acacius and Euzoius, both were supporters of the arch heretic, Arius, who denied the Deity of Jesus Christ (see, F Kenyon, Handbook to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament, pp.40-41, sq). The same can be said about the famous Trinitarian text of 1 John 5:7 (KJV/NKJV, etc), which was corrupted at a very early time. On this I have done a very deep study from the Greek grammar of the passage, and shown that the disputed words in verse 7, have to be part of the original text, as removing them cause grammatical problems in the Greek, which is impossible for the Word of God. You can see my study here, http://www.trinitystudies.org/Trinity/1jn5.6-10.pdf

There are scholars who have looked at these so called contradictions and mistakes in both testaments, in great depth, and from what I have read, none of the "problems" like those you mention are errors in any way. Sure there are "paradoxes" in Scripture, but actual contradictions, this is impossible, as the originals are indeed "inspired by God", Who cannot make mistakes.

Dr Gleason Archer has written a wonderful work on "Bible Difficulties", as have many others. It is worthwhile if you look at some of these. Also, some of the older more indepth commentaries deal with textual matters.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Joseph Smith did an amazing amount of work during his short life.

by misleading many thousands by his false "religion" which is not in accordance with the Teachings of God's ONLY Word, the Holy Bible.

My point to you earlier about the 27 Books of the New Testament, which you accept as the Word of God. On what basis do you accept only these 27 Books for the New Testament? I mentioned some more books, like the Revelation of Peter, which was accepted as "Canonical" by some in the early Church, and also listed among the New Testament Books, in the earliest "Canon", known as the Muratorian Canon. Why not these additional books? I know you argue that the BOM is also "inspired" by God, however, you would never include this in the same category as the actual Books of the New Testament, nor, that they should form part of the original New Testament. My point to all those who accept the 27 Book Canon of the New Testament, on what basis is this acceptance made?
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Here are a few mistakes:
.How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple? (a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2) (b) Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)
How many were the children of Zattu? (a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8) (b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)
Who was the father of Shealtiel? (a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12) (b) Neri’ (Luke 3:27)
The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once? (a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19) (b) No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)
I haven't read any of those books so I would not be able to say.

Let me deal directly with one of your examples of "mistakes", to show exactly what I mean by copyists "errors".

You mention Solomon's appointing of people to work on the Temple. 2 Chronicles 2:2 says that the number was 3,600; and 1 Kings 5:16 says the number was 3,300. Clearly 300 adrift. According to the Hebrew Masoretic Text, which was complied between the 6th and 10th centuries A.D., the text in 1 Kings reads, "3,300". The Septuagint version of the Greek Old Testament, which in many places represents older Hebrew manuscripts, in the Codex Vaticanius (4th cent. A.D.) reads, "3,600", which agrees with 2 Chronicles 2:2. However, in the Codex Alexandrinus (5th cent.), it reads, "3,500". Like the Hebrew manuscripts, the Greek of the Septuagint, is also represented in copies, which has variant readings. This shows that through careful textual studies, so called "contradictions" are not what they are made out to be.
 
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He is the way

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Let me deal directly with one of your examples of "mistakes", to show exactly what I mean by copyists "errors".

You mention Solomon's appointing of people to work on the Temple. 2 Chronicles 2:2 says that the number was 3,600; and 1 Kings 5:16 says the number was 3,300. Clearly 300 adrift. According to the Hebrew Masoretic Text, which was complied between the 6th and 10th centuries A.D., the text in 1 Kings reads, "3,300". The Septuagint version of the Greek Old Testament, which in many places represents older Hebrew manuscripts, in the Codex Vaticanius (4th cent. A.D.) reads, "3,600", which agrees with 2 Chronicles 2:2. However, in the Codex Alexandrinus (5th cent.), it reads, "3,500". Like the Hebrew manuscripts, the Greek of the Septuagint, is also represented in copies, which has variant readings. This shows that through careful textual studies, so called "contradictions" are not what they are made out to be.
Copyists "errors" are still errors.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Copyists "errors" are still errors.

but you fail to realize that these are in the copies of manuscripts, not in the original autographs. When compared they are not that big a difference to the content where they are found. You need to look at textual studies to understand this better. You have not dealt with #507
 
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He is the way

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but you fail to realize that these are in the copies of manuscripts, not in the original autographs. When compared they are not that big a difference to the content where they are found. You need to look at textual studies to understand this better. You have not dealt with #507
We don't have the original Biblical manuscript. All we have are copies.
 
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He is the way

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by misleading many thousands by his false "religion" which is not in accordance with the Teachings of God's ONLY Word, the Holy Bible.

My point to you earlier about the 27 Books of the New Testament, which you accept as the Word of God. On what basis do you accept only these 27 Books for the New Testament? I mentioned some more books, like the Revelation of Peter, which was accepted as "Canonical" by some in the early Church, and also listed among the New Testament Books, in the earliest "Canon", known as the Muratorian Canon. Why not these additional books? I know you argue that the BOM is also "inspired" by God, however, you would never include this in the same category as the actual Books of the New Testament, nor, that they should form part of the original New Testament. My point to all those who accept the 27 Book Canon of the New Testament, on what basis is this acceptance made?
God still speaks to His people through His prophets. He said He would. That is why the Bible is not God's only word:
(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)

7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Joseph Smith asked God if he should translate the Apocrypha and this was the answer he was given:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 91:1 - 6)

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.
3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.
4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;
6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.
 
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mmksparbud

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Copyists "errors" are still errors.

And JS made many errors that you all just minimize and say they are "corrections"--You have more of those in his writings than are in the entire bible!
 
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mmksparbud

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I think we have several times said the JST is more of a commentary, if you are going to go word for word Greek the KJV is probably more correct.


Interesting. Your main, original prophet, who claimed to be writing the words of God Himself, His version of the bible you now call a "commentary" and the KJV--supposedly full of human errors and apostasy--you now claim is more accurate the JST?!
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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We don't have the original Biblical manuscript. All we have are copies.

meaning what? that these copies do not faithfully represent the originals? Neither do we have the original writings of Homers Iliad and Odyssey, or of Caesar's wars, but only very late copies? How many do you hear who question their genuineness? I get the distinct impression that you are trying to justify the glaring errors in the BOM, by attacking the Authority and Infallibility of the 66 Books of the Holy Bible.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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God still speaks to His people through His prophets. He said He would. That is why the Bible is not God's only word:
(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)

7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Joseph Smith asked God if he should translate the Apocrypha and this was the answer he was given:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 91:1 - 6)

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.
3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.
4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;
6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

Firstly, as much as you would like the Bible to say that there are prophets after the closing of the Bible Canon, and thereby include your Joseph Smith, I can tell you that even from your Scripture verse of Amos, it says absolutely nothing of this. You fail to understand what the Apostle Paul writes in Ephesians 2:20, where he is speaking of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, as being, "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone". This very clearly means that the Church's FOUNDATION is the Apostles and Prophets, which means they are NOT part of the STRUCTURE, which is what the Church is for the past 2000 years.

Secondly, the stuff that JS supposed to have heard from God on the books of the Apocrypha, did you know that ALL of what he says above, was already know for CENTURIES to the Church, this is OLD, LATE news! Anyone can mouth off what is recorded already in Church history, and claim that God told him in revelation! And there are some gullible enough to believe them!
 
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withwonderingawe

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Your main, original prophet, who claimed to be writing the words of God Himself,

Did he say so when he was working on the New Testament?

Here is an example of commentary

King James Version, Matthew 16:24–25: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”


What does it mean to “take up his cross, and follow me” and how do you 'lose your life' yet 'still find it'?

Joseph expanded this by adding an explanation which is not in any Greek text, we all know this.

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me.

“And now for a man to take up his cross, is to deny himself all ungodliness, and every worldly lust, and keep my commandments.

“Break not my commandments for to save your lives; for whosoever will save his life in this world, shall lose it in the world to come.

“And whosoever will lose his life in this world, for my sake, shall find it in the world to come.”

Therefore, forsake the world, and save your souls; for what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"


Now you can say he added works but it's definitely commentary.
 
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Rescued One

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Joseph Smith did an amazing amount of work during his short life.
He thought so, too, before his demise.

"Come on! ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."
History of the Church, Vol. 6, sermon 1844, p. 408-409
 
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mmksparbud

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Did he say so when he was working on the New Testament?

Here is an example of commentary

King James Version, Matthew 16:24–25: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”


What does it mean to “take up his cross, and follow me” and how do you 'lose your life' yet 'still find it'?

Joseph expanded this by adding an explanation which is not in any Greek text, we all know this.

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me.

“And now for a man to take up his cross, is to deny himself all ungodliness, and every worldly lust, and keep my commandments.

“Break not my commandments for to save your lives; for whosoever will save his life in this world, shall lose it in the world to come.

“And whosoever will lose his life in this world, for my sake, shall find it in the world to come.”

Therefore, forsake the world, and save your souls; for what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"


Now you can say he added works but it's definitely commentary.

Yes--it just makes no sense that your prophet writes a translation of the KJV because the KJV has supposedly been corrupted and is not accurate--but you claim that the KJV is more accurate than his. Don't get it.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Yes--it just makes no sense that your prophet writes a translation of the KJV because the KJV has supposedly been corrupted and is not accurate--but you claim that the KJV is more accurate than his. Don't get it.

Well then you have a problem
 
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mmksparbud

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Well then you have a problem

No--I don't. Seems like the problem is yours for you don't know who to believe. The KJV is corrupted and your prophet is not accurate. Since I do not have a problem with checking out the Hebrew/ Aramaic and Greek for fine tuning of the scriptures, and am secure knowing that the scriptures are the same as the ones Jesus Himself read--the OT (due to Dead Sea Scrolls)and He expressed no problem with them---I have no problem at all.
 
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