The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Jesus

jgr

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We see that in Daniel 9 also between verses 26 and 27, with verse 27 referring to the end times when the false messiah will confirm the covenant with Israel and then will break it at the mid point.

There's no false messiah, explicit or implicit. There's only Messiah. And He breaks no covenant. He confirms the New Covenant in His Blood (Matthew 26:28), and in so doing causes cessation of the Old Covenant sacrifices and oblations.

Actually, Messiah the Prince in verse 25 should be translated Messiah the King. the Hebrew is nagid. The word was first used of King Saul.

The Hebrew "nagid" for prince is the same in verses 25 and 26. There is no difference explicit or implicit between the two. They both refer to Messiah.

And in verse 26, it says the people of prince "who is to come" will destroy the city and sanctuary. Not the prince himself.

Correct. The people of the prince Messiah were the Romans and the Jews, both of whom destroyed the city and sanctuary (see post #193).

It is not until verse 27 that the prince referred to in Verse 26 then shows up.

Messiah the prince shows up in verse 25.

And no "prince" confirmed "the covenant" with Israel for one week of years

At Calvary, Messiah confirmed His New Covenant, which began 3.5 years earlier with His own ministry to Israel, and continued 3.5 years thereafter with the disciples' ministry to Israel.

then abrogated it in the middle of that week of years

Correct. Christ did not abrogate the New Covenant which He had confirmed.

set himself up as the abomination of desolation referred to by Daniel and Yeshua.

The presence of the Roman armies in the holy city of Jerusalem was the abomination, and the destruction which they wrought brought desolation.

That comes later when the false messiah "confirms the covenant".

There is no false messiah who confirms a covenant. There is only Messiah who confirms His New Covenant. It is an everlasting covenant. (Hebrews 13:20)
 
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Copperhead

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At Calvary, Messiah confirmed His New Covenant, which began 3.5 years earlier with His own ministry to Israel, and continued 3.5 years thereafter with the disciples' ministry to Israel.

Actually, Yeshua established the new covenant at the last supper event.

I am one of those goofy idiots that takes the scripture in a serious way, not an allegorical or figurative fashion. I like to follow the hermeneutic maxim of "if the plain sense, within the context, makes sense... then seek no other sense". It takes some serious allegorical foot work and dismissing of basic grammatical construction to fit Messiah in verse 27.

Let's go back to basic grade school grammar. The "he" of Daniel 9:27 has to apply to the previous aforementioned person, which would be the "prince" of the people, not Messiah the Prince. So it is that "prince of the people" individual who is confirming the covenant.

And while the previous 69 weeks of Daniel 9 were literal in their application... that each of the 69 weeks represents a 7 year period from the time to restore and rebuild Jerusalem till the Messiah is cut off, and that has been confirmed in the mathematical work by Sir Robert Anderson in his book "The Coming Prince", then the final week has to be literal also. God is not capricious like Allah and jump from literal to allegorical / figurative to whatever within a context of a passage. And there was no abomination of the temple done in the 7 years after Yeshua being "cut off" per Daniel.

The sacrifice ending is a clear reference to where the sacrifices occur, at the Temple. So Roman armies in the city were not the abomination. Yeshua clarifies this:

Matthew 24:15 (NKJV) “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

The "holy place" is a clear reference to the Temple, not the city. And it is something or someone standing in the temple. Again, Roman armies did not occupy the temple in the 7 years following Yeshua's death. They never occupied it at all. They destroyed it in 70AD, almost 4 decades after Yeshua.

So since Yeshua is pointing us to Daniel 9:27, and He takes the abomination in a literal way to mean something or someone, then it must be a literal 7 year period that a individual confirms a covenant and in the mid point of that 7 years... 3.5 years... that individual breaks the confirmation of the covenant. "one who makes desolate" in verse 27 refers to an individual, just like Yeshua did.

It is some folk's gnostic, allegorical scripture interpretation which includes throwing out all of basic grammatical sentence structure that leads to all sorts of problems and applying of things to passages that are not contextually accurate. The goal post keeps getting moved and there is no objective standard.
 
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Copperhead

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Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


.

Oh boy. You are confusing covenants.

The Abrahamic covenant, a covenant of the Land, indeed was confirmed to Abraham and his seed. And that can include those of gentiles who are grafted in thru Yeshua, but that doesn't mean the gentiles (or the church as a whole) are the heirs. It is a unconditional covenant established by God to the physical Hebrews. They couldn't abrogate it if they wanted to. And it is still in effect because the sun rose this morning, the moon is shining tonight, and the waves are still roaring on the sea shore.

And because Israel is a nation today, as per Ezekiel 4 in conjunction with Leviticus 26, and would be brought back initially in unbelief per Ezekiel 36 and 37, the Abrahamic Covenant i still in effect. If that is not the case, then God did not remember His promise, and those that come to faith in Yeshua, the promises made to us are in jeopardy also.

But I believe that God is one who delights in making and keeping His promises. He keeps them because His name is on the line.

But the covenant being referenced in Jeremiah 31 regarding a new covenant is the previous Mosaic covenant that was established at Sinai. Notice, the Lord is talking about is the one that He made when He brought their fathers out of Egypt. That proves it is not the same covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which lived before that. Now it is true, gentiles are grafted into the tree, but gentiles are NOT the tree. As per Paul...

Romans 11:16-18 (NKJV) For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

A analogy comes to mind, something I heard back in my youth when I was in the Army...... "just because you have been to the rifle range, that doesn't make you veterans". Same thing applies, just because one is grafted into the tree of Israel, that doesn't make them Israelis. The grafted in branches partake of the nourishment of the faith of Abraham. This faith is expounded upon in Hebrews 11.

And what of the Davidic Covenant? Did you forget that one? That is still in play also, unless Gabriel was lying to Mary and the prophets were full of wild blueberry muffins. And the Noahic covenant... again, still in play. I saw a rainbow the last time it rained, so the Noahic covenant, made with all mankind, is still in effect, just as God promised and is true to His word.

Best not to confuse covenants as that can lead to false doctrine.
 
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jgr

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Actually, Yeshua established the new covenant at the last supper event.

He established it at the last supper, and confirmed it at Calvary.

Let's go back to basic grade school grammar. The "he" of Daniel 9:27 has to apply to the previous aforementioned person, which would be the "prince" of the people, not Messiah the Prince. So it is that "prince of the people" individual who is confirming the covenant.
Messiah is the only individual identified as a prince in the entire passage.

The "he's" of Daniel 9:27 point to their antecedent of the "prince" in Daniel 9:26.

The "prince" in Daniel 9:26 points to its antecedent of the "Prince" Messiah in Daniel 9:25.

"Prince" in both instances is the Hebrew "nagid". There is no distinction drawn between the two occurrences.

And while the previous 69 weeks of Daniel 9 were literal in their application... that each of the 69 weeks represents a 7 year period from the time to restore and rebuild Jerusalem till the Messiah is cut off, and that has been confirmed in the mathematical work by Sir Robert Anderson in his book "The Coming Prince", then the final week has to be literal also. God is not capricious like Allah and jump from literal to allegorical / figurative to whatever within a context of a passage. And there was no abomination of the temple done in the 7 years after Yeshua being "cut off" per Daniel.

There's nothing more literal than a 70th week which consecutively and contiguously follows the 69th week. And there's nothing more illiteral than a decapitated 70th week which interposes a conjured "false messiah" who is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage.

Matthew 24:15 (NKJV) “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

Luke's parallel:

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Jerusalem, the holy city, was the referenced holy place.

So since Yeshua is pointing us to Daniel 9:27, and He takes the abomination in a literal way to mean something or someone, then it must be a literal 7 year period that a individual confirms a covenant and in the mid point of that 7 years... 3.5 years... that individual breaks the confirmation of the covenant. "one who makes desolate" in verse 27 refers to an individual, just like Yeshua did.

The abomination was literal. The contiguous 70th week was a literal seven years. Messiah literally confirmed the New Covenant at Calvary 3.5 years into the 70th week. No covenant was broken. Messiah desolated the city and sanctuary using His enlisted people, the Romans; and His covenant people, the Jews.

It is some folk's gnostic, allegorical scripture interpretation which includes throwing out all of basic grammatical sentence structure that leads to all sorts of problems and applying of things to passages that are not contextually accurate. The goal post keeps getting moved and there is no objective standard.

Some folks like to contrive their own rules of grammar and interpretation to deform Scripture to match preconception. There is nothing more objective than 70 contiguous weeks whose theme is Messiah the Prince, and His perfect and completed accomplishments at Calvary.
 
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BABerean2

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Oh boy. You are confusing covenants.

The Abrahamic covenant, a covenant of the Land, indeed was confirmed to Abraham and his seed. And that can include those of gentiles who are grafted in thru Yeshua, but that doesn't mean the gentiles (or the church as a whole) are the heirs. It is a unconditional covenant established by God to the physical Hebrews. They couldn't abrogate it if they wanted to. And it is still in effect because the sun rose this morning, the moon is shining tonight, and the waves are still roaring on the sea shore.

You are promoting a type of "Dual Covenant" Theology, based on race.

Your confusion comes from ignoring the words of Abraham's Seed found below.


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


In Matthew 21:33-46 Christ reveals that the "son" is the "heir" to the land, instead of those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone".
Christ told the Jewish leadership that the kingdom would be taken from them and it would be given to another "nation" bringing forth fruit.
That "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

You are correct in the fact that it is an "unconditional" covenant promised to the physical seed of Abraham.
That seed is Jesus Christ. (Matthew 1:1, Galatians 3:16)
Otherwise you would have to cut 1 John 2:22-23, and Titus 3:9 out of your Bible.

You are replacing the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

You are replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

You are replacing the word "so" with the word "then" in Romans 11:26.

The form of "Dual Covenant" Theology that you are promoting is a type of "Replacement Theology", which replaces Christ with others.


.
 
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Copperhead

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Matthew 21:33-45, the parable of the vineyard, is not about Yeshua inheriting the land. It is about those that are tending the vineyard, that they are corrupt and they will be replaced with those who will tend it properly. In the context of the passage, Yeshua is giving this parable in the presence of the Jewish leadership confronting Him. It is how the vineyard will be taken from them, since they are corrupt, and given to those who will tend it properly. Most likely beginning with the Apostles.

And who is the vineyard?

Isaiah 5:7 (NKJV) For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant

It has nothing to do with the Abrahamic Covenant regarding the land. At best, it refers to the Mosaic Covenant given at Sinai.

1 John 2:22-23 is not apropos to the main point of Israel and the land.

Titus 3:9, not disputing about any genealogies. Just expressing the Abrahamic covenant is still in force and applies to the Hebrew people. Not even including any discussion about endless genealogies. But it is true, those that do not hold that God delights in making and keeping His promises, it is unprofitable and useless to discuss these things with.

Romans 11:26, I didn't replace "so" with "then". I don't recall even posting a copy of Romans 11:26 in my posts. I did post Romans 11:16-18. I could be wrong, but you are going to have to show where I changed the word "so" to "then" in the passage. I think you are straining at a gnat.

Romans 9:8. A close reading is saying that not all the children of Abraham are part of the promise, only those thru Isaac. Remember, Abraham had a son via Hagar. So only those that are of the lineage thru Isaac are children of the promise, not those that are of the lineage of Ishmael. Also, only those of the lineage of Jacob, not Esau. Look at the whole context and not just one verse. Paul is delineating who is the seed of the promise so that those who might claim to be from Ishmael or Esau cannot claim the promise given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 
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BABerean2

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Matthew 21:33-45, the parable of the vineyard, is not about Yeshua inheriting the land.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

.
 
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Copperhead

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And what is His inheritance.....

Isaiah 19:24-25 (NKJV) In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”

Jeremiah 10:16 (NKJV) The Portion of Jacob is not like them,
For He is the Maker of all things,
And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance;
The Lord of hosts is His name.

Psalms 78:62 (NKJV) He also gave His people over to the sword, And was furious with His inheritance. (one is not furious with an inanimate object like land, but a people.

Psalms 78:71 (NKJV) From following the ewes that had young He brought him, To shepherd Jacob His people, And Israel His inheritance.

Psalms 94:14 (NKJV) For the Lord will not cast off His people,
Nor will He forsake His inheritance.

Psalms 106:40-41 (NKJV) Therefore the wrath of the Lord was kindled against His people, So that He abhorred His own inheritance.
41 And He gave them into the hand of the Gentiles,
And those who hated them ruled over them.


But to whom is the land an inheritance?

Jeremiah 3:18 (NKJV) “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Ezekiel 45:1 (NKJV) “Moreover, when you divide the land by lot into inheritance, you shall set apart a district for the Lord, a holy section of the land; its length shall be twenty-five thousand cubits, and the width ten thousand. It shall be holy throughout its territory all around.

Ezekiel 47:13 (NKJV) Thus says the Lord God: “These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions.

Psalms 105:8-11 (NKJV) He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the allotment of your inheritance,”
 
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BABerean2

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And what is His inheritance.....

Isaiah 19:24-25 (NKJV) In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”

Jeremiah 10:16 (NKJV) The Portion of Jacob is not like them,
For He is the Maker of all things,
And Israel is the tribe of His inheritance;
The Lord of hosts is His name.

Psalms 78:62 (NKJV) He also gave His people over to the sword, And was furious with His inheritance. (one is not furious with an inanimate object like land, but a people.

Psalms 78:71 (NKJV) From following the ewes that had young He brought him, To shepherd Jacob His people, And Israel His inheritance.

Psalms 94:14 (NKJV) For the Lord will not cast off His people,
Nor will He forsake His inheritance.

Psalms 106:40-41 (NKJV) Therefore the wrath of the Lord was kindled against His people, So that He abhorred His own inheritance.
41 And He gave them into the hand of the Gentiles,
And those who hated them ruled over them.


But to whom is the land an inheritance?

Jeremiah 3:18 (NKJV) “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Ezekiel 45:1 (NKJV) “Moreover, when you divide the land by lot into inheritance, you shall set apart a district for the Lord, a holy section of the land; its length shall be twenty-five thousand cubits, and the width ten thousand. It shall be holy throughout its territory all around.

Ezekiel 47:13 (NKJV) Thus says the Lord God: “These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions.

Psalms 105:8-11 (NKJV) He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the allotment of your inheritance,”


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

.
 
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Copperhead

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Indeed, Yeshua is of the lineage of Abraham, but He is not the only one to which the inheritance is given. Look at some of those verses I gave you.... the twelve tribes inherit the land. Yeshua was just from one, and is only one of the "seed" singular of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

And all those that are descended from Abraham are his seed (singular), not seeds.

Romans 11:1 (NKJV) I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 Corinthians 11:22 (NKJV) Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. (notice again the singular seed, not seeds, and Paul even recognizes other descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (even unbelieving Hebrews) are "seed" singular, just as Paul is, and as Yeshua is)

Romans 9:8 (NKJV) That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (singular again, and as I expounded before, the children of the promise are only those thru Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not those of Ishmael, born of fleshly desire of Abraham to have an heir via Hagar instead of waiting upon the Lord to provide Isaac via Sarah, or later, Esau born of Isaac, only thru Jacob.)
 
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BABerean2

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Psalms 105:8-11 (NKJV) He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the allotment of your inheritance,”

How can there be a land promise to all of the descendants of Abraham that lasts "forever" on this rotten, sin-cursed world, which is going to be burned up based on 2 Peter 3:10-13?

What does the Book of Hebrews say about the Old Testament Saints and Canaan land?



Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.
 
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jgr

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Indeed, Yeshua is of the lineage of Abraham, but He is not the only one to which the inheritance is given. Look at some of those verses I gave you.... the twelve tribes inherit the land. Yeshua was just from one, and is only one of the "seed" singular of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

And all those that are descended from Abraham are his seed (singular), not seeds.

Romans 11:1 (NKJV) I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 Corinthians 11:22 (NKJV) Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. (notice again the singular seed, not seeds, and Paul even recognizes other descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (even unbelieving Hebrews) are "seed" singular, just as Paul is, and as Yeshua is)

Romans 9:8 (NKJV) That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (singular again, and as I expounded before, the children of the promise are only those thru Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not those of Ishmael, born of fleshly desire of Abraham to have an heir via Hagar instead of waiting upon the Lord to provide Isaac via Sarah, or later, Esau born of Isaac, only thru Jacob.)

Dispensational attempts to racialize the gospel are as risible as they are detestable.

The expression "children of (the) promise" is found only one other place in Scripture, and there it refers unmistakably to all true believers. In this instance, it is the Galatian church comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles:

Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

This is in complete harmony with the Romans 9:8 declaration that the children of the promise are counted as the seed. If Paul was making a racial claim, there would be no need to describe anyone as counted as the seed. They would either be the seed genetically, or they would not.

But to be counted as the seed means that anyone of any ethnicity or ancestry, Jew, Gentile, descendant of Isaac or descendant of Hagar or Esau or anyone else; who places their faith in Christ, is counted as the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29).

And the children of any flesh, including that of Abraham and Isaac, are not the children of God until they themselves do likewise.

Another dispensational candidate for the round file.
 
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Copperhead

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Well, forever in terms of this world is until the end of the Millennial Kingdom, when the earth is burned up and a new heaven and a new earth come about per Revelation 21. But the promise will be realized in full during the Millennial Kingdom. Since time itself is a physical dimension, I am convinced that time will no longer be in existence after the new heavens and new earth are created. Eternity is not a lot of linear time, it is outside the dimension of time altogether.

But Hebrews is speaking of those who are of the faith of Abraham. The Promise of the Land is made to all the descendants, irregardless of their belief or not. It is not for their faith or belief that God will restore Israel to the land, it is for His name's sake to honor His promise to the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Isaiah 11:10-12 (NKJV) “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,

From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

the context of Isaiah ("that day" in V11 which is during the time when Gentiles are seeking Yeshua in V10) implies that this second time of restoration will occur during the period of the Ekklesia, when the gentiles seek the Root of Jesse, the Messiah. The time we are living in now.

And it is not for their sake that the Lord restores them, it is for the sake of His name.

Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

What part of "irrevocable" do some not get?

Isaiah says that they will be restored to the Land a second time. The conquest of the land when they came out of Egypt was not a restoration. The return from the Babylonian Captivity was the first. The second was in May 1948. Isaiah 11 along with Ezekiel 36 and 37 go into great detail about this, that they will be restored to the land initially in unbelief. And Ezekiel 4 along with Leviticus 26 breaks it down almost to the day regarding when Israel would become a nation the second time, in May 1948.

Eventually, the Messiah will reign as king over Israel in the land of the Promise, after the conflict of the Great Tribulation, which is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble by Jeremiah, and Jacob (Israel) will be saved as a group or entity out of that time when the nations make a final desperate move to destroy Israel....

Zechariah 14:3-4 (NKJV) Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

Ezekiel 37:24-28 (NKJV ) “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.

"nations" here is the Hebrew Goyim, which is the Hebrew for gentiles. This passage is clearly a reference of the Messianic Kingdom.

So while it is true pertaining believers in Messiah now, in a spiritual sense there is neither Jew nor Gentile, that is regarding the Ekklesia (Church). But the Messianic Kingdom is comprised of those Jews and Gentiles who survive the Great Tribulation and enter into that period to repopulate the earth. There will then be the fullness of the promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob realized at that time. Israel will occupy the entire land of the Promise and Messiah will be king over them and all the world as well. And according to Ezekiel 45:1, only a section of the promised land will be reserved for the Messiah. All the rest will be occupied by physical Israel.

Jeremiah 23:7-8 (NKJV) “Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”
 
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Copperhead

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Another dispensational candidate for the round file.

And I plead "guilty" with no reservations! I feel nothing negative about being put in that camp. I am not a dispensational candidate... I am already there!

All dispensations actually means is that God revealed (dispensed more knowledge) Himself more in different periods of time. There was the time before the Flood. The time before the Mosaic Covenant given at Sinai. The time of the Mosaic covenant when Israel was the main focus. The Time of Messiah that we are in now. And the time when Messiah will reign on the earth and everyone will be without excuse. Each time period, more of who God is gets revealed more than the previous time. It is not limited in increments I just mentioned. Those are the biggies.

Did Noah understand all the nuances regarding Yeshua and his death, burial, and resurrection? Nothing in scripture indicates that he did. Nothing in scripture thru Noah's time goes into those kind of details. Those sorts of details hadn't been revealed in depth as they have been revealed to us after Yeshua's time here. So.... God "dispensed" more knowledge of Himself. That is what "dispensation" means.

And God is the same yesterday, today, and forever! He just didn't reveal all of Himself in one large dose from the beginning. Actually, in hidden ways He did. For example, the names of the lineage from Adam to Noah spell out the Gospel message as clear as any New Testament writer did.

He is the creator. He wrote the rules and the script. He gets to lay it out as He wants to. And if He chooses to reveal (dispense knowledge) more of Himself incrementally to us, that is His choice and we just have to deal with it.

Don't like it? Tough. You are calling out and complaining to the wrong person.
 
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BABerean2

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Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

What part of "irrevocable" do some not get?

The part that ignores two different groups of "they" in the verse.
There are "they" who are enemies of God, because they reject the Gospel.
There is another group of "they" who are the "election" that have accepted Christ, just as Paul did.

Paul started the chapter with two different groups of Israelites at the beginning of Romans 11, and he ends it in the same way.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

.
 
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Copperhead

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The part that ignores two different groups of "they" in the verse.
There are "they" who are enemies of God, because they reject the Gospel.
There is another group of "they" who are the "election" that have accepted Christ, just as Paul did.

Oh come on now. You certainly have more grammatical aptitude than that! At least I will start out assuming you do. Please don't cause me to change that opinion of your abilities.

The "they" in the second part has the antecedent of "they" in the first part of the verse. There wasn't any other entity introduced between those two uses of "they". Basic grammatical sentence structure says that the "they" are the same "they". It refers to the same entity.

I realize you don't agree with me on this issue. I am ok with that. But for us to have any kind of serious dialogue about such issues, we have to follow basic structures of language and grammar. Paul was not an illiterate goof ball who just showed up. He was one of the most well trained and literate Rabbis of His time, training at the feet of one of the most venerated Sages of Jewish antiquity, Gamliel. Well versed in several languages. A profound debater and expositor. And a Roman citizen to boot! Not some dweeb from the Negev. It is very fortunate for us that he is on our side of the fence!

So, let's follow his example.
 
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jgr

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And I plead "guilty" with no reservations! I feel nothing negative about being put in that camp. I am not a dispensational candidate... I am already there!

You've misunderstood.
The round file is a euphemism for the garbage can.
It is where a racialized apartheid pseudogospel belongs.
Unlike various individuals on these forums, I attack only the counterfeit message, never the messenger.

He is the creator. He wrote the rules and the script. He gets to lay it out as He wants to. And if He chooses to reveal (dispense knowledge) more of Himself incrementally to us, that is His choice and we just have to deal with it.

Don't like it? Tough. You are calling out and complaining to the wrong person.

He certainly is, did, and does. And His message is antiracial and unambiguous. Peter summarizes it perfectly.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

That's the gospel. Not a molecule of DNA to be seen.
 
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jgr

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Oh come on now. You certainly have more grammatical aptitude than that! At least I will start out assuming you do. Please don't cause me to change that opinion of your abilities.

The "they" in the second part has the antecedent of "they" in the first part of the verse. There wasn't any other entity introduced between those two uses of "they". Basic grammatical sentence structure says that the "they" are the same "they". It refers to the same entity.

I realize you don't agree with me on this issue. I am ok with that. But for us to have any kind of serious dialogue about such issues, we have to follow basic structures of language and grammar. Paul was not an illiterate goof ball who just showed up. He was one of the most well trained and literate Rabbis of His time, training at the feet of one of the most venerated Sages of Jewish antiquity, Gamliel. Well versed in several languages. A profound debater and expositor. And a Roman citizen to boot! Not some dweeb from the Negev. It is very fortunate for us that he is on our side of the fence!

So, let's follow his example.
The word "they" does not appear in the Greek. It has been translationally imputed. Antecedence is not applicable.

BAB2 is correct. Paul is describing two groups of indivduals. The first are unbelievers who are hostile to the gospel, and enemies thereof. The second are the believing remnant who have experienced the election of grace (Romans 11:5).

God's believers are God's beloved.

God's gifts and calling are extended exclusively to His beloved believing remnant. He does not revoke what He extends to them.

They are never extended to any unbeliever, irrespective of DNA.
 
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Copperhead

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You've misunderstood.
The round file is a euphemism for the garbage can.
It is where a racialized apartheid pseudogospel belongs.
Unlike various individuals on these forums, I attack only the counterfeit message, never the messenger.



He certainly is, did, and does. And His message is antiracial and unambiguous. Peter summarizes it perfectly.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

That's the gospel. Not a molecule of DNA to be seen.

Your condemnation of me actually makes me feel vindicated. One can always tell when they struck gold, when folks have a conniption like you are having. Oh, when you attack the message the way you have, you are indeed attacking the messenger. You disagree, and that's fine. Don't patronize me with that argument.

Again, your problem is not with me. You are barking at the wrong person. The guy who set the rules is in another pay grade above mine. You need to complain to Him if you feel offended.

True enough, God is no respecter of persons as Peter stated. But He is also a stickler about keeping promises He has made. And it is treading on dangerous ground to suggest that He changed His mind and threw Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) under the bus.

And you seem to be confusing individual salvation with the preserving of a group. Peter is addressing Cornelius' household. Cornelius is a Gentile. "Nation" in verse 35 you reference is ethos in Greek, the equivalent of Goy in Hebrew, which has generally been used to mean "gentile". Peter is becoming aware that Gentiles are acceptable to God thru Messiah. It has no relevance to this discussion.

You also have problems with basic grammar.
 
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Copperhead

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The word "they" does not appear in the Greek. It has been translationally imputed. Antecedence is not applicable.

BAB2 is correct. Paul is describing two groups of indivduals. The first are unbelievers who are hostile to the gospel, and enemies thereof. The second are the believing remnant who have experienced the election of grace (Romans 11:5).

God's believers are God's beloved.

God's gifts and calling are extended exclusively to His beloved believing remnant. He does not revoke what He extends to them.

They are never extended to any unbeliever, irrespective of DNA.

I respectfully disagree, as would my college English literature professors.
 
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