Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

zoidar said:

As we see in Heb 10 continuing willfully sinning will lead us to losing salvation.

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It doesn't say that, you assume it says that. Hebrews 10:26-31 is about rejecting the Covenant.
Under Mosaic law, only certain offenses were worthy of death.
Idolatry, Sabbath breaking and adultery. All 3 of which are representative of being in a covenant relationship.
And if you are born-again you have not rejected the Covenant of peace. You have accepted it.

zoidar said:

Maybe we should read Heb 6 with Heb 10 in mind:

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But you really don't understand either verse, so what's the point?
Hebrews 6:4-6 is not saying someone can lose or reject there salvation.
Read the verses before it.
Do those things.
He is stating verses 4-6 as something that cannot happen.
but if it could happen, it would be impossible to get it back.
If we possess eternal life and don't live forever, did we have eternal life? No, would live forever if we at one point ever possessed eternal life.
God has given His Spirit to us a earnest payment.
For God to give us the Spirit and not give us eternal life would mean God broke a promise. And God always keeps His promises.
Psalm 15:4 says a godly man swears to his own hurt.
That is he keeps a promise even if it is inconvenient to do so.
Do you think God would break His promise because He didn't like the result of our lives?

Doug Melven said:

You will have to elaborate on Romans 2 unless you believe in salvation by works. Then there is no need for you to elaborate.

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I don't have to , especially since you and others appear not to care.
But if you happen to read it,
you can see WHO GOD SAYS IS JUSTIFIED, and who God Says in NOT JUSTIFIED.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

People do not learn from Jesus ...... usually. (If they did, there wouldn't be such errors! )

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One wonders how we know what Jesus taught at all, when even those he did teach didn't learn.

Doug Melven said:

Do you think God would break His promise because He didn't like the result of our lives?

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What is the promise? Is it not whoever believes in the Son has eternal life? And as James states: For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:26). So "faith" without works is not counted as faith. As long as we walk in relationship with Christ the promise is eternal life.

James 2

"18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Here you see the meaning of faith. It's believing in Christ and being obedient to what he says.

Eloy Craft said:

One wonders how we know what Jesus taught at all, when even those he did teach didn't learn.

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Yes, that seems like a catch-22 sometimes or a lot of times, doesn't it? A no win no win situation instead of win - win.

The one thing important is what Jesus told Mary and Martha.

If people learned this, oh what a difference it would make !

(like in ACTS assembly of Ekklesia, et al, who it is written they were continually full of peace and joy and righteousness)

I said this:
"Here is the word 'believe' in John 3:16
NT:4100 pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o); from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):
KJV - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

I'm not seeing your point."

zoidar said:

To have faith in someone means to believe in him and in what he says.

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OK. Really no different than the definition I found in a Greek lexicon.

So to have faith in Jesus means believe in him and do what he says.

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You just said to believe in Him and in what He says. Now you've moved the goalposts and say "do what He says".

Well, He said a lot of things. But only a few things for salvation. So you need to get your story straight.

If you don't do what he says, how can it be said that you have faith in him, since your actions prove otherwise.

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Listen, no one is able to follow His commands perfectly.

46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.” /Luke 6

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OK, what's the point here? Believers are commanded to sanctify Christ AS LORD in 1 Pet 3:15.

Luke 6:46 says nothing about losing salvation, or whatever else you may think.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Or other Scripture that it seems you continually avoid.

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Maybe you could show these verses I avoided?
Or do you just like to make unfounded accusations to make yourself feel better?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No.

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Then why don't you answer those verses I posted in 1175 or would you prefer to avoid them.
Do you who accuse others of avoiding verses, do you avoid verses yourself?

Doug Melven said: ↑
Would this be enough verses to show eternal security?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No.

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Even though there are quite a few, there is only 1 needed to show eternal security:

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

There are 2 ways to view and explain this verse.

red words = the CAUSE of having eternal life, which is Jesus Himself.
blue words = the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is never perishing.

The other way is that the colored words represent the CONDITION for never perishing.

That condition is to be given eternal life by Jesus Christ.

Now, if either of these explanations can be shown to be in error, please proceed.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Picture this: A child in an orphanage believes every day that he will get adopted.
Then one day a loving couple come along and adopt him.
And each day he tells his new parents, I am believing that you will not send me back to the orphanage.
This goes on for days. Each day the new parents tell the child, we love you and will not send you back.
Finally the grieved parents ask the child, don't you trust the word we gave you that we would not send you back.

Our Heavenly Father gave us a promise that we would get to live with Him forever.
He gave us His Spirit as a down payment on our future reward for trusting Him.
Do you not trust this Word?

Doug Melven said:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Picture this: A child in an orphanage believes every day that he will get adopted.
Then one day a loving couple come along and adopt him.
And each day he tells his new parents, I am believing that you will not send me back to the orphanage.
This goes on for days. Each day the new parents tell the child, we love you and will not send you back.
Finally the grieved parents ask the child, don't you trust the word we gave you that we would not send you back.

Our Heavenly Father gave us a promise that we would get to live with Him forever.
He gave us His Spirit as a down payment on our future reward for trusting Him.
Do you not trust this Word?

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Of course it's a beautiful story, but to trust in Jesus is one side of the coin. The other side is obedience, so the story of the orphan doesn't quite match.

Yes God has predestined all who repent and put their faith in him to be adopted as children.

FreeGrace2 said:

This was to MDC, who will give you a correct answer, but these 2 verses are in the context of John 5:24, 4 verses before v.28.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Now, what do we learn from this verse:
1. those who believe possess NOW eternal life
2. those who believe WILL NOT BE JUDGED same as John 10:28
3. those who believe HAVE CROSSED OVER from death to life

OK, having been given eternal life on the basis of believing, please explain how eternal life can die.

Well, I know that you can't do that.

The FACT of being eternal life means that life shall never perish. Ever hear that phrase before? Sure. John 10:28.

But you've been quite clear that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28, so this would mean that you don't believe what He said in John 5:24 either, since they mean the same thing.

So, why are you so interested in v.28,29, given that you don't believe what Jesus said in these other verses?

Are you just picking and choosing which verses you wan't to believe? Sure looks that way.

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FreeGrace2 said:

Did Jesus give you some Greek grammar lessons? lol

So what I am "hearing" here is that you don't really have a Greek expert who can support your unsubstantiated claim about the present tense.


If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. :0

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Actually, I had to go INTO the kitchen.
Are you saying I'm lying?
If so, you REALLY should stop talking to me.
Why would you, or anyone, care to speak to someone that lies!!!

Doug Melven said:

Jesus said that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
And somehow you think a good tree can become a bad tree. Can't happen.
If an evil person without Christ starts doing good works, like those listed in Matthew 25:31-46 do you think that will save him? That question was rhetorical, the obvious answer is no.
So, if a bad person can't become a good person apart from having faith in Christ and then Christ changing him.
What makes you think a good person can become and evil person apart from God reversing what He has done?

We are not sinners because we sin.
We are sinners because we were born that way because of Adam. Psalm 51:5, Romans 5:12
We did not become righteous because of anything we did, we were born-again that way. 2 Corinthians 5:17

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I see that you do not understand what initial and ultimate salvation are from your reply to @Bible2+
The only reason I mention this is because it would help you to really understand a lot if you DID understand the difference.
Try looking up Justification and Sanctification (which is the same thing) --- it would be interesting.

As to good trees and bad trees. Jesus always knew what He was talking about. Why do you debate with me what Jesus said? He was also VERY CLEAR about what He said (Paul could leave some doubt to many). Of course a good tree could only produce good..but let's see what else He said...

Jesus liked to use analogies because the people of that time knew all about olive trees.
How about exegeting John 15:1-6 ??
JESUS SAID that HE is the vine.
WE are the branches.
As I'm sure you know, the branches get LIFE from the vine.
verse 4

Our Father in heaven prunes the branches that produce good fruit so they could produce even more.
verse 2

Our Father in heaven takes away every branch that does not bear fruit...it is useless, like the unsalty salt in Mathew 5:13.
verse 2

The bible always agrees with itself.

IF we abide in Christ (abide means to keep living) we produce much fruit.
verse 5

IF WE DO NOT abide in Christ and do not KEEP LIVING IN HIM, we are thrown away as a branch, we dry up, we are gathered and cast into the fire and are burned.
verse 6

Please post what you do not agree with for the above.

If we have faith in Christ...............we have eternal life.
If we do not have faith in Christ.....we do not have eternal life.

Why? Because we are the branches and He is the Vine.
The life is in the Vine. If we stop having faith, the life in the Vine no longer reaches us....we are cut off.

Doug Melven said:

You said earlier that God would take us back when we were ready to come back.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

If salvation could be lost, there is no way to get it back.

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I've explained this more than once.
No use in repeating.
Read The Prodigal Son.
Read about how the Jews were USED TO FOLLOWING THE LAW.
Read about how they began to doubt their salvation in JESUS.
You'll have to come to this understanding on your own.

FreeGrace2 said:

You just said to believe in Him and in what He says. Now you've moved the goalposts and say "do what He says".

Well, He said a lot of things. But only a few things for salvation. So you need to get your story straight.

Listen, no one is able to follow His commands perfectly.

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I tried to explain it the best way I can. To believe in something a person commands is to do what that person commands. If there is a baker in town and he says the bread is very hot: "If you touch it you will get badly burnt!" If you then say: "Yes, I believe you", then you touch the bread and as the baker said you get burned. What does that mean? It means you never trusted in the baker, you never believed in him, if you did you wouldn't have touched the bread. It's exactly the same thing with faith.

There is a passage in the bible that describes this: Matthew 21

28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29 And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

You see, Jesus compares "believe" with "work in the vineyard". To believe in John the baptist was to do what he said: Repent, get baptized, give to those who have less, be happy with your pay etc. And of course believe in his message about the Messiah ... and that message is: Jesus is the savior of the world, he takes away the sins of the world, go follow him! "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3:30).

I also encourage you to read John 15:1-11, and read it without any preconceived ideas. What is Jesus saying?

15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Doug Melven said:

Once we believe, we are justified.
Roman 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Once we believe, we are sanctified
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Transformation is what you are talking about. This is not automatic.
This happens as we yield ourselves to Him and let the Word of God transform us. Romans 12:1-2
Not being transformed will not cost us our salvation, it will cause us a lot of pain in this life and rewards in the next life. but we will still be there.

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You repeat this all the time.

You're very good with scripture.
Could you post some scripture that shows how Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Jude and every writer is writing to give us rewards and not eternal life?

John 10:28
Proverbs 8:35
1 Peter 5:10
1 John 2:17
John 3:16
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
1 John 5:13
Psalm 139:23
Romans 6:23

shall I continue?

The ENTIRE BIBLE, Old and New Testament was written to that we might find eternal life in God our creator.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

They cannot honestly prove their position, in view of all Scripture.

You have provided over and again Scripture that shows they are wrong in their belief, as they have free will to continue to do so.

Just as everyone saved has free will NOT TAKEN AWAY BY JESUS.

Or, let them produce Scripture about "FREE WILL TAKEN AWAY" by Jesus or by the Father in heaven.

They cannot - there are none. They are boxed into a corner and might not give up since they have free will even to defend a false teaching - Jesus won't take that away from them either - but they will suffer for it, and maybe already did ?

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I worry for new Christians reading along who can be brought to believe that just because they walked down an isle and now "believe" they will have salvation.

This is a serious matter. It could cause someone's loss of salvation because the truth is the truth, whether or not anyone here believes it.

1 Timothy 4:1 says that in later times some will fall away from the faith. Since the faith has been established since the year 27 AD (about) and OSAS is a modern idea, then, indeed, that is falling away from the faith.

As to free will: Amen to that.
I've always asked for verses showing that after Adam we lost free will - but of course we haven't!

Just as it is our free will to believe and be saved,
it is our free will to walk away from God and lose that salvation.

Good point.

GodsGrace101 said:

I've always asked for verses showing that after Adam we lost free will - but of course we haven't!

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Believer's active trusting and relying on Yahweh, have their free will. (subject to Jesus completely willing of course).

There are some verses, like "God gave them over to believe their own delusions"
and
I think Ephesians 2 also,
that show that unbelievers at 'times' do not have free will to choose, even though they think they do.

They are subject to the prince of darkness,

until if ever they are bought by the preciousness, the BLOOD OF THE LAMB WHO IS SLAIN for their iniquity.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

People do not learn from Jesus ...... usually. (If they did, there wouldn't be such errors! )

So they will believe what their "favorite" group or "favorite" teacher says without ever finding out
that Jesus never taught it and that they are opposed to Him.

Just as He says in His Word repeatedly. And woe to those who cause little ones to stumble. Woe to those who cross mountains and deserts and oceans to make one convert, but won't lift a finger to do what is right and good.... their converts might never have a chance at life,
according to what is written in the BIBLE.

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I like what you said above that I highlighted.
I never thought of it this way.
But I've always known it's serious...
what about this...
James 3:1
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Believer's active trusting and relying on Yahweh, have their free will. (subject to Jesus completely willing of course).

There are some verses, like "God gave them over to believe their own delusions"
and
I think Ephesians 2 also,
that show that unbelievers at 'times' do not have free will to choose, even though they think they do.

They are subject to the prince of darkness,

until if ever they are bought by the preciousness, the BLOOD OF THE LAMB WHO IS SLAIN for their iniquity.

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John 8:36

God is sovereign. Nothing happens unless He so wills it.
This does not mean we don't have free will - you've expressed it correctly above.

We have the free will to swing at the ball the pitcher just threw.
God determines the outcome of the game.