FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Where is this supposed "ultimate salvation" mentioned in Scripture?
Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).
For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Jesus died for everyone.
No, He didn't, only for His sheep (John 10:14-15), the elect (1 Peter 1:2).
For the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).
Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).
Nonelect people cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect people (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Jesus died for everyone. 2 Cor 5:14,15 . . .
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 means that Jesus Christ died to save all elect people, the "us" in 1 Peter 4:1 and 1 Peter 3:18 (cf. 1 Peter 1:2), who are all His sheep (John 10:11,15). For not all people are His sheep/His elect (John 10:26, John 8:42-47, Matthew 13:38-42).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Jesus died for everyone. 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9 . . .
Hebrews 2:9 means that all manner of people can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved (Revelation 5:9b), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26c means that all manner of people came to Jesus during His first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. The original Greek word (G3956) translated as "every" or "all" can mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It does not have to mean absolutely all.
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Jesus died for everyone. 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2.
Regarding 1 John 2:2, Jesus Christ's divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone. But it was performed to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Romans 9:18-24), but only of elect people.
God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect people in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.
God created nonelect people to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).
God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Do you believe eternal life can be obtained by this "patient continuance in well doing"?
That's what Romans 2:6-8 says.
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
But, now please prove that "judgment and fiery indignation" means "go to hell".
That's what hell is (Revelation 14:10-11).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
So, let's just quit this nonsense. John 3:18 is about those who have not believed, and that means they never believed.
No, it doesn't, just as saying that someone has not won a baseball game does not require that they have never won a baseball game. For someone can win baseball games for awhile, and then not win a baseball game, just as someone can believe for awhile, and then stop believing (Luke 8:13).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
It means IF the condition is met, which is "believes", then the result is guaranteed, which is "not perish".
Only under certain other conditions (Luke 13:3, Hebrews 3:14).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Do you understand what an "earnest" means? It's a PROMISE.
A conditional promise, like a down-payment is a conditional promise.
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Does God keep His promises, or not?
His promises are conditional (2 Timothy 2:12b).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Except Paul failed to add YOUR OPINION in the passage. There's nothing about anything "outside of free will actions".
Paul showed that our free-willed actions can result in the ultimate loss of our salvation (Romans 8:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
God cannot deny Himself . . .
That's right.
2 Timothy 2:13 means that if Christians come to believe not (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Matthew 13:21), if they come to commit apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), this does not affect God's faithfulness to Himself. For He cannot deny Himself. But He will deny Christians who commit apostasy (2 Timothy 2:12b), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, Mark 8:35-38).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
. . . and since you agree that the Holy Spirit will not leave the believer, regardless of anything the believer might do, that believer cannot end up in hell, for the Holy Spirit will never be there.
He has always been there (Psalms 139:8), as well as everywhere else (Psalms 139:7-8).
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FreeGrace2 said in post #1104:
And for the weird view that one can discard/etc the gift, how come there are zero verses to that effect?
There are verses to that effect (Hebrews 12:16-17, Hebrews 6:4-8).
FreeGrace2 said in post #1104:
Those that don't endure, WON'T reign with Him.
They also won't be saved ultimately (Matthew 24:13).