Eternal Security - Is the Gospel
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Doug Melven
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Our dispute is whether a godly person can become an ungodly person.
Jesus said, "A good cannot bear bad fruit".
You say different than what Jesus said.
Why did they fall away?
13 And those on the rock [are] they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
The Word was never planted in there hearts. All they had was intellectual assent.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
You cite Hebrews 6:4-6 to show salvation can be lost. But when the words there don't suit your doctrine you ignore them. Look in verse to see what I am talking about.
Sickness does come from the devil, not God.
But God gave us promises that if we would but lay hold of them, we would not be sick.
Proverbs 4:20-23, Isaiah 53:4-5 Matthew 8:16-17, 1 Peter 2:24-25
These promises we must continue to believe and rely on because they are conditional on us doing what is said in them. Especially the one in Proverbs.
But a promise of eternal life for believing is a one time thing. We believe, we get born again, we possess eternal life.
Simple as abc 123.
The passage doesn't say He will deny us eternal life, you added that.
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FreeGrace2
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So, was Jesus contradicting the OT when He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish?
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FreeGrace2
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I said:
"Jesus and Paul always agreed on everything.
We read Jesus saying that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28 and Paul describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
You might have not noticed but what you say here is really nothing more than being in charge of your salvation and having to "cling to the Savior" in order to never be abandoned by Him.
That suggests the obvious. Those who lose their grip by whatever means WILL be abandoned by their Savior. Bummer for them.
But we know that is totally false, since Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Quite different, you know?"
But since you've given your own opinion about this, how about providing some kind of explanation as to how or why the 3 cited verses aren't related?
As to Rom 6:23, it's real clear. Eternal life is described as a gift of God.
And Rom 11:29 is just as clear. God's gifts and calling are irrevocable.
What else is there to conclude but that the gift of eternal life is an irrevocable gift. God does not take it back.
And for the weird view that one can discard/etc the gift, how come there are zero verses to that effect?
We learn from v.12a a condition for reigning with Him; enduring. Clear enough. But don't make the mistake of thinking that reigning with Him mean means getting into the kingdom. No. This actually means what it says; to REIGN with Him. From the Millennium on, Jesus Christ will be on His throne, reigning. And those who endure will be reigning with Him.
Do you grasp the alternative? Those that don't endure, WON'T reign with Him. Oh, they'll be there; but they won't be reigning with Him.
So, now for v.12b. The word "deny" is the opposite of the word "endure", don't you see? Those who endure for Christ will be persecuted. Those who don't endure are in fact denying Him.
So, He will deny us. But don't make the common mistake of thinking that He will deny us salvation. It not only doesn't say that, the context doesn't allow that.
Because the context is v.12a and enduring. So, summary:
1. those who endure will reign with Christ.
2. those who don't endure, or deny Him, will be denied.
3. But the opposite of reigning with Christ is to NOT reign with Christ.
So, those who endure will reign with Christ. This is an eternal reward.
Those who don't endure, but deny Him, will be denied the eteranl reward of reigning with Him.
Real simple.
"Jesus and Paul always agreed on everything.
We read Jesus saying that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28 and Paul describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
You might have not noticed but what you say here is really nothing more than being in charge of your salvation and having to "cling to the Savior" in order to never be abandoned by Him.
That suggests the obvious. Those who lose their grip by whatever means WILL be abandoned by their Savior. Bummer for them.
But we know that is totally false, since Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Quite different, you know?"
Sad that the 3 verses cited don't seem to register as Scripture to you.
But since you've given your own opinion about this, how about providing some kind of explanation as to how or why the 3 cited verses aren't related?
How many times would you like me to exegete John 10:28?
As to Rom 6:23, it's real clear. Eternal life is described as a gift of God.
And Rom 11:29 is just as clear. God's gifts and calling are irrevocable.
What else is there to conclude but that the gift of eternal life is an irrevocable gift. God does not take it back.
And for the weird view that one can discard/etc the gift, how come there are zero verses to that effect?
OK, let's get into some exegesis, shall we?
We learn from v.12a a condition for reigning with Him; enduring. Clear enough. But don't make the mistake of thinking that reigning with Him mean means getting into the kingdom. No. This actually means what it says; to REIGN with Him. From the Millennium on, Jesus Christ will be on His throne, reigning. And those who endure will be reigning with Him.
Do you grasp the alternative? Those that don't endure, WON'T reign with Him. Oh, they'll be there; but they won't be reigning with Him.
So, now for v.12b. The word "deny" is the opposite of the word "endure", don't you see? Those who endure for Christ will be persecuted. Those who don't endure are in fact denying Him.
So, He will deny us. But don't make the common mistake of thinking that He will deny us salvation. It not only doesn't say that, the context doesn't allow that.
Because the context is v.12a and enduring. So, summary:
1. those who endure will reign with Christ.
2. those who don't endure, or deny Him, will be denied.
3. But the opposite of reigning with Christ is to NOT reign with Christ.
So, those who endure will reign with Christ. This is an eternal reward.
Those who don't endure, but deny Him, will be denied the eteranl reward of reigning with Him.
Real simple.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
No, I am showing that God's character does not change and seeking him and finding him and having him with you is part of salvation.Not by trying to keep the law. When men tried to keep the law in the OT they would fall and need the sacrifices and need to come to God in faith and humility. They would have a broken spirit and a humble and contrite heart. then God would help them and give them himself and life.
There is a difference in the Old and New testaments. But the understanding of both comes by the spirit and the veil is on the heart of many when reading the OT (2 Cor 3)we read many passages in the OT about men seeking God and finding him and having a clean heart and God's righteousness in their heart etc and salvation.
Consider in the OT Notice how the Lord is WITH" them and in their heart and gives life and he still does this today. Notice many similarities to the words in the New testament and notice the inward life .
"9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.
10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart."(Psalm 36:9,10 KJV)
"18 The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."(Psalm 34:19 KJV)
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation."(Psalm 40:10 KJV)
"7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings."(Isaiah 51:7 KJV)
Proverbs 4:23
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit....17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."(Psalm 512:10-12,17 KJV)
Psalm 100:3
"Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture."
Psalm 119:40
"Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness."
Psalm 66:18
"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:"
Job 29:3
"When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness;"
Job 24:13
"They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof."
Psalm 43:3
"O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles."
Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?"
Psalm 37:6
And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday."
Isaiah 2:5
O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."
"3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? 4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. 5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation."(Psalm 24:3-5 KJV)
so the Lord is with those who walk in faith and who have his righteousness in their heart walking in His light and word in their heart. They would have been broken and humbled by the work of the law written in their hearts and the Mosaic law. This was as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ and to the hope for God's righteousness. The righteousness of God was manifested in the law and revealed in Jesus Christ as Romans 3 says
Psalm 34:18
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
"9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.
10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart."
Psalm 97:11
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart."
Psalm 40:10
I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation."
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Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).
For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
No, He didn't, only for His sheep (John 10:14-15), the elect (1 Peter 1:2).
For the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).
Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).
Nonelect people cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect people (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 means that Jesus Christ died to save all elect people, the "us" in 1 Peter 4:1 and 1 Peter 3:18 (cf. 1 Peter 1:2), who are all His sheep (John 10:11,15). For not all people are His sheep/His elect (John 10:26, John 8:42-47, Matthew 13:38-42).
Hebrews 2:9 means that all manner of people can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved (Revelation 5:9b), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26c means that all manner of people came to Jesus during His first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. The original Greek word (G3956) translated as "every" or "all" can mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It does not have to mean absolutely all.
Regarding 1 John 2:2, Jesus Christ's divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone. But it was performed to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Romans 9:18-24), but only of elect people.
God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect people in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.
God created nonelect people to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).
God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.
That's what Romans 2:6-8 says.
That's what hell is (Revelation 14:10-11).
No, it doesn't, just as saying that someone has not won a baseball game does not require that they have never won a baseball game. For someone can win baseball games for awhile, and then not win a baseball game, just as someone can believe for awhile, and then stop believing (Luke 8:13).
Only under certain other conditions (Luke 13:3, Hebrews 3:14).
A conditional promise, like a down-payment is a conditional promise.
His promises are conditional (2 Timothy 2:12b).
Paul showed that our free-willed actions can result in the ultimate loss of our salvation (Romans 8:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
That's right.
2 Timothy 2:13 means that if Christians come to believe not (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Matthew 13:21), if they come to commit apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), this does not affect God's faithfulness to Himself. For He cannot deny Himself. But He will deny Christians who commit apostasy (2 Timothy 2:12b), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, Mark 8:35-38).
He has always been there (Psalms 139:8), as well as everywhere else (Psalms 139:7-8).
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There are verses to that effect (Hebrews 12:16-17, Hebrews 6:4-8).
They also won't be saved ultimately (Matthew 24:13).
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I don't say different than what Jesus says.
In Mathew 12:33-37 Jesus says that a good tree brings forth good fruit, and a bad tree brings forth bad fruit. He says that what is evil cannot speak what is good.
This goes against everything those say who state that we could fall away and STILL be saved. No. If we fall away and abandon God, we will be as the evil again. There are only two choices: Good or evil. We must pick which one we are. Jesus says our words will either justify us or condemn us.
Mathew 7:16 We will know the false by their fruit.
Every tree that DOES NOT bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Not everyone will enter into heaven by only saying Lord, Lord, but by doing the will of our Father in heaven.
It does NOT MATTER WHY they fell away. The point Jesus is making is that they COULD fall away. It could be because they have no root, it could be because someone died, or because they are persecuted -- the reasons could be many. The point JESUS made is that they DID fall away.
And,,,BELIEVE in the Greek does NOT mean intellectual assent.
It means to trust and to obey and to follow.
A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.
See also : pisteuoLuke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.
pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.
See also : peithoRom 10:17; 2 Thess 2:13.Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE, FAITH, FIDELITY.
1 Cor 9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 1 Cor 7:15; Rom 16:1;James 2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.
source: Define BELIEVE | Definition for word BELIEVE Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary BELIEVE
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EVERY word in the New Testament suits me.
I don't make up doctrine, BTW. I only repeat what I've learned and what is written in the N.T.
Hebrews 6:4-6 proves that salvation can be lost. If a JEW fell away from the salvation of Jesus, what salvation could be left for him??? Here it is again:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
This is speaking about Jews who have tasted of the heavenly gift (salvation through Jesus) and have been made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (they are definitely saved) but THEN THEY FALL AWAY from the salvation of Jesus and wish to return to Judaism -- they crucify Christ again and there is no salvation left for them.
Just reading this verse plainly will explain itself. Problem is that some come to it with pre-conceived notions.
So now you put the burden on Christians that IF they are not healed, it is THEIR fault !! This is Word of Faith belief and it is not biblical. God is not Santa Claus. Sometimes the answer to our prayer is NO!
Sorry, I don't know which passage since you didn't post it.
I do not add anything to scripture. That is against God's will:
Revelation 22:18
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John 17:12 and John 18:9 do not mean that no Christian can ultimately be lost (as in, e.g., Hebrews 10:26-29), but refer only to none of the chosen/elect/saved twelve apostles of Jesus Christ (Luke 6:13) becoming lost, except Judas.
No, it isn't (Luke 13:3).
We can wrongly employ our free will to break it (Hebrews 6:4-8). So the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant in other ways.
It is made with us (Jeremiah 31:31, Ephesians 2:12,19).
No, it isn't. It is still conditional (2 Timothy 2:12b).
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 was referenced to show the opposite.
No, but we can lose it (Hebrews 12:17).
Hebrews 10:26-29 refers to sin which cannot be forgiven even through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, because it is sin which is being continued in without repentance. It has not been placed in the past (Romans 3:25), as in repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). So "if we sin wilfully" (Hebrews 10:26) means if we sin without repentance. It does not mean: "If we sin because we want to". For every Christian has sinned because he wants to (James 1:14-15). And yet his sins as a Christian can still be forgiven if he repents from them and confesses them to God (1 John 1:9), including during his daily prayers asking for forgiveness for his sins (Matthew 6:11-12, Luke 11:3-4).
Only so long as they repent from their sins (Hebrews 10:26-29) and confess them to God (1 John 1:9).
It is (Romans 3:25).
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Matthew 7:16-20 is not contradicting that Christians can wrongly employ their free will to bring forth some corrupt fruit, as in some unrepentant sinful actions, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27). Similarly, Matthew 7:16-20 is not contradicting that Christians can wrongly employ their free will to fail to bring forth good fruit, as in becoming utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
Instead, regarding Christians, Matthew 7:16-20 is showing how to determine whether a Christian is "good" or has wrongly employed his free will to return to being corrupt (2 Peter 2:20-22).
It was, that is why they believed (Luke 8:13).
And we can lose it (Hebrews 6:4-8), just as a newborn baby can at some subsequent point die.
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It is, with regard to ultimate salvation.
For example, in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all of their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), then they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Christians can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.
Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).
Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism will not result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.
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JESUS was incarnated to teach us how to belong to the Kingdom of God. If we're to "reign" with Him at some point--we must first be saved !
Please don't speak your opinion, but about what scripture says as @Doug Melven does, which is why it's good to speak to him.
As far as 2 Timothy 2:12b the enduring and denying have to do with SALVATION.
If you have any doubt, please read verse 10:
Paul says:
"For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory."
If we deny Jesus, He will also deny us.
All who deny Jesus will NOT be saved, including those who believed for WHILE and was TEMPORARY and then they fell away.
Luke 8:13
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Hi B2,
I've noticed that you use the terms initial salvation and ultimate salvation.
The concepts are correct but most people know them as:
Justification
Sanctification (protestants)
or
Justification
Progressive Justification (catholics)
Sometimes I do wish we all used the same terms!
But the concepts are the same and correct.
Ultimate Salvation, Sanctification or Progressive Justification ALL require OUR cooperation to be ultimately saved.
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FreeGrace2
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FreeGrace2 said in post #1092:
Where is this supposed "ultimate salvation" mentioned in Scripture?
The Bible is quite clear that when one believes, they possess eternal life (JOHN 3:16, 5:24, 6:47). So from the moment of faith in Christ, they shall never perish (John 10:28).
So there is no such thing as 2 different kinds of salvation.
So, why would there even BE this "initial salvation" by faith alone, IF one only gets into heaven by this "ultimate salvation" by faith plus works?
Why isn't it obvious that there is no need for having this "initial salvation" if one really isn't saved unless they have faith plus works?
Me thinks you just shot yourself in your foot. I'd go see a doctor, if it were me.
You, sir, have no clue what grace is and what it means.
I said said in post #1092:
"Jesus died for everyone."
And I also cited 4 verses that actually SAY SO.
So, I will now prove your error.
John 10:14,15 -
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
In v.14 Jesus speaks of "My sheep", and in the whole context He also notes "other sheep of Mine" in v.16.
He notes "THE sheep" in v.11,12,13,15. And He specifically notes that He will die for THE sheep in v.11 and 15.
And a bit further in the text Jesus tells some Jews they are "not My sheep".
So Jesus spoke of:
1. My sheep
2. other sheep of Mine
3. not My sheep
4. THE sheep
And He died for all of them. By His own words.
OK, so much for your first citation.
Now, on to the next one, 1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Not so much as even a passing reference to who He died for.
So, NEITHER of your citations supports your claim of limited atonement.
otoh, the 4 verses I cited DO teach unlimited atonement.
2 Cor 5:14,15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
The 2 verses mean exactly what they SAY; He died for everyone (all).
Your claim is again, bogus.
Where is this supposed "ultimate salvation" mentioned in Scripture?
Sounds like a great way to defend one's flight of imagination.
The Bible is quite clear that when one believes, they possess eternal life (JOHN 3:16, 5:24, 6:47). So from the moment of faith in Christ, they shall never perish (John 10:28).
And from this initial salvation, where the believer is given eternal life, Jesus says they shall never perish.
So there is no such thing as 2 different kinds of salvation.
It really doesn't matter if you simply cited Gen 1:1 - Rev 22:21 (the whole Bible) as your support, just citing verses means nothing. Explaining how they actually mean what you claim is the thing.
So, why would there even BE this "initial salvation" by faith alone, IF one only gets into heaven by this "ultimate salvation" by faith plus works?
Why isn't it obvious that there is no need for having this "initial salvation" if one really isn't saved unless they have faith plus works?
Me thinks you just shot yourself in your foot. I'd go see a doctor, if it were me.
Yeah, here it is. What you don't see (though extremely obvious) is that your idea is that you are saved by your own "righteous deeds".
You, sir, have no clue what grace is and what it means.
My assurance is based solely on what Jesus did for me on the cross and what He says about those He gives eternal life: they shall never perish.
Why and how is this important? What does it look like?
I said said in post #1092:
"Jesus died for everyone."
And I also cited 4 verses that actually SAY SO.
I'm tired of all your verse citing, none of which support ANY of your claims.
So, I will now prove your error.
John 10:14,15 -
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
In v.14 Jesus speaks of "My sheep", and in the whole context He also notes "other sheep of Mine" in v.16.
He notes "THE sheep" in v.11,12,13,15. And He specifically notes that He will die for THE sheep in v.11 and 15.
And a bit further in the text Jesus tells some Jews they are "not My sheep".
So Jesus spoke of:
1. My sheep
2. other sheep of Mine
3. not My sheep
4. THE sheep
And He died for all of them. By His own words.
OK, so much for your first citation.
Now, on to the next one, 1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Not so much as even a passing reference to who He died for.
So, NEITHER of your citations supports your claim of limited atonement.
otoh, the 4 verses I cited DO teach unlimited atonement.
2 Cor 5:14,15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
You can stop right here. There is NOTHING in the context or chapter about the "elect", so your claim is out of bounds.
The 2 verses mean exactly what they SAY; He died for everyone (all).
"everyone" means exactly that, everyone. The ONLY TIME "all" doesn't mean every single person is when the context supports such a meaning. So when the Bible says He died for all, it doesn't include anything in the context to conclude less than everyone.
Your claim is again, bogus.
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FreeGrace2
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OK, let's put this to the test to determine the truth.
Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.
What say you?
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FreeGrace2
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I said:
"Jesus and Paul always agreed on everything.
We read Jesus saying that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28 and Paul describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
But now, "belonging" to the kingdom? Where do you get such ideas?
And I've given an explanation using Rom 8:17 as a parallel verse to show that this is a privilege, an eternal reward. Not all believers will reign with Christ.
So I came up with the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life explanation.
But since no one seems to understand it, there is another explanation of what Jesus meant.
John 10:28 gives us the CONDITION for never perishing. That condition is to be given eternal life.
If the condition is met, that being having eternal life, then the recipient shall never perish.
But your theology claims something totally different than what Jesus SAID.
So your disagreement is directly with the Lord Jesus, not me. I simply believe what He said. Without any doubts.
"Jesus and Paul always agreed on everything.
We read Jesus saying that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28 and Paul describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
And, what verse speaks of "how to belong to the Kingdom of God". Are you just making up more stuff? There are verses about inheriting the kingdom, entering the kingdom.
But now, "belonging" to the kingdom? Where do you get such ideas?
No doubt, no question. But that's not what 2 Tim 2:12 is about. It's about what the saved person must do in order to reign with Christ.
And I've given an explanation using Rom 8:17 as a parallel verse to show that this is a privilege, an eternal reward. Not all believers will reign with Christ.
Interesting. When I directly quoted John 10:28, no one from your ilk believed what Jesus said. They all offered strange notions of what He meant.
So I came up with the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life explanation.
But since no one seems to understand it, there is another explanation of what Jesus meant.
John 10:28 gives us the CONDITION for never perishing. That condition is to be given eternal life.
If the condition is met, that being having eternal life, then the recipient shall never perish.
But your theology claims something totally different than what Jesus SAID.
If one has to "endure" to be saved, then you are in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT with the Bible and you have no clue what grace is about.
Apparently you missed the paragraph change in v.11. Where Paul changed the subject.
The context shows that what Jesus denies us is the privilege of reigning with Him.
Yet, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.
So your disagreement is directly with the Lord Jesus, not me. I simply believe what He said. Without any doubts.
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Oh my.
The bible does NOT contradict itself.
John 10:28 is absolutely correct.
verse 11 The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
Which sheep? Those that belong to Him, Hear His voice and follow Him.
verse 27 MY SHEEP HEAR (present tense) MY voice, Jesus KNOWS them, and they FOLLOW Jesus. (ALL PRESENT TENSE)
verse 28 Jesus gives eternal life to HIS SHEEP. And they shall NEVER PERISH, nor be snatched out of His hand.
And who are HIS SHEEP?
Those who HEAR HIS VOICE
Those who KNOW HIM
Those who FOLLOW HIM.
IF we are in the presence of Jesus and He KNOWS US and we KNOW HIM and we HEAR HIS VOICE and we FOLLOW HIM,
we shall have eternal life.
So easy to understand.
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FreeGrace2
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Of course it is.
Now, since it is, how come you believe, in contrast to that verse, that recipients of eternal life CAN perish? Please explain.
Your abuse of the Greek present tense is clear to everyone who knows what that tense means.verse 11 The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
Which sheep? Those that belong to Him, Hear His voice and follow Him.
verse 27 MY SHEEP HEAR (present tense) MY voice, Jesus KNOWS them, and they FOLLOW Jesus. (ALL PRESENT TENSE)
verse 28 Jesus gives eternal life to HIS SHEEP. And they shall NEVER PERISH, nor be snatched out of His hand.
And who are HIS SHEEP?
Those who HEAR HIS VOICE
Those who KNOW HIM
Those who FOLLOW HIM.
IF we are in the presence of Jesus and He KNOWS US and we KNOW HIM and we HEAR HIS VOICE and we FOLLOW HIM,
we shall have eternal life.
So easy to understand.
The ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to be given eternal life. So said Jesus in John 10:28.
But we all know that your view is contrary to what Jesus said.
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Sorry have to make an edit because of misunderstanding from my part...
I'm not too picky about how baptism is done as long as it is in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baptism in the early church was normally done by immersion, three times for each person in the trinity, but another just as valid method used was pouring on water three times the trinitarian way. If the baptism couldn't be done this way for some reason, sprinkling was also accepted.
Listen to the 10 minutes from the end. It's really interesting! From 58:00...
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Eternal security is a denial of the state of becoming. A denial of the hope that comes from faith. To be elected is to re-present a body. We can't know if we re-present the Body of Christ until our presentation is complete. If we are one of the Elect it can only be known in heaven.
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I'm sure the classic one time immersion also works fine, even it wasn't done that way in the first Church. To me it's important to baptize in the trinity, even I do believe that God will accept a baptism in the name of Jesus, like some people today baptize.
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