Some Questions About Orthodoxy

Mr. No'

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Hello! I have come to the conclusion that I have been spiritually weak, and that I have perhaps been relying on my parents too much for religious guidance. I have grown up in a Protestant home, and was baptized in a Pentecostal church. I still live with my parents (and will do so until I graduate college). My mother has returned to the Eastern Orthodox Church after research and doctrinal disagreements with my father. I, too, am strongly considering chrismation in the EO church. I do not think I will make a decision while still at home, as passions are high about the issue, and I do not want to make an emotional decision to join a church. But I do have some questions, one of which is doctrinal:

Praying with the Saints - I (think that I) understand that:
1) They are just as much a part of the Church as the living (if not more).
2) That Christ overcame Death.
3) That Orthodox and Catholics (?) don't pray to them in a worshiping way, but ask them for intercession just as you would ask a living friend to pray for you.
4) That icons are seen kinda like "family photos," (I am actually fond of this idea) and that the icons themselves are not worshiped or prayed to.
5) That the saints do have prayers, as mentioned in Revelations.

My question about this is, that when asked how to pray in Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:1, Christ does not include or allude to saintly intercession here. Some (that I would not count as the most reliable of theological sources) have said that the concept of this type of intercession is a corruption by Constantine. I don't agree with the previous statement, but is there any instances known of the use of saintly intercession in the Church before the Constantine, or in light of the Bible verses above?

My easier (?) questions about Orthodoxy:
How do Baptismal names work? My birthname is Noah, is the biblical Noah considered a saint?
Why are certain prayers repeated a lot?
What is the purpose of Sacraments, this is something that I have always found vague when reading about Orthodoxy.

Sorry for writing a small novel, I did not intend for it to be that long. :)
 

FenderTL5

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Thank you!
Your welcome.

On baptismal names, it's a good idea to consult with your priest and/or sponsor on this. I did not grow up honoring saints, so my priest gave me some suggested paths to explore. For me, he suggested looking at my given name, and then looking at my birthday or day of my chrismation. But that could differ person to person.

The Righteous Noah is listed as a baptismal name on orthodox wiki, but I don't know the date he is commemorated.
 
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ArmyMatt

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but is there any instances known of the use of saintly intercession in the Church before the Constantine, or in light of the Bible verses above?

yes, in the Maccabees and Baruch in the OT (Septuagint).

How do Baptismal names work?

you are named for a saint that you share a name with or are close to.

My birthname is Noah, is the biblical Noah considered a saint?

yeppers.

Why are certain prayers repeated a lot?

because Christ prayed repeatedly when He was in the Temple, and in Revelation the elders and angels repeat prayers.

What is the purpose of Sacraments, this is something that I have always found vague when reading about Orthodoxy.

they are how we participate in God's divine life, and are the basis for why we do everything else we do.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hello! I have come to the conclusion that I have been spiritually weak, and that I have perhaps been relying on my parents too much for religious guidance. I have grown up in a Protestant home, and was baptized in a Pentecostal church. I still live with my parents (and will do so until I graduate college). My mother has returned to the Eastern Orthodox Church after research and doctrinal disagreements with my father. I, too, am strongly considering chrismation in the EO church. I do not think I will make a decision while still at home, as passions are high about the issue, and I do not want to make an emotional decision to join a church. But I do have some questions, one of which is doctrinal:

Praying with the Saints - I (think that I) understand that:
1) They are just as much a part of the Church as the living (if not more).
2) That Christ overcame Death.
3) That Orthodox and Catholics (?) don't pray to them in a worshiping way, but ask them for intercession just as you would ask a living friend to pray for you.
4) That icons are seen kinda like "family photos," (I am actually fond of this idea) and that the icons themselves are not worshiped or prayed to.
5) That the saints do have prayers, as mentioned in Revelations.

My question about this is, that when asked how to pray in Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:1, Christ does not include or allude to saintly intercession here. Some (that I would not count as the most reliable of theological sources) have said that the concept of this type of intercession is a corruption by Constantine. I don't agree with the previous statement, but is there any instances known of the use of saintly intercession in the Church before the Constantine, or in light of the Bible verses above?

My easier (?) questions about Orthodoxy:
How do Baptismal names work? My birthname is Noah, is the biblical Noah considered a saint?
Why are certain prayers repeated a lot?
What is the purpose of Sacraments, this is something that I have always found vague when reading about Orthodoxy.

Sorry for writing a small novel, I did not intend for it to be that long. :)
Hello and welcome to CF and to TAW!

Take your time, better to keep asking questions as it takes coming at it from different angles to finally understand many of these things, but if sounds like you've gotten well on your way as far as how we view the Saints. :)

I would only add that we are promised and provided the Sacraments as a means of God's grace, sometimes they say "veichle for God's grace". Of course we can ruin that by approaching in the wrong way (like those mentioned in the Scriptures who even got sick or died because they did not properly discern the Lord's Body) ... but the purpose of them being instituted was as a way for God to share His grace with us. :)

We are glad to have you with us! Prayers for peace in your home - I know that can be difficult.

God be with you!
 
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buzuxi02

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My question about this is, that when asked how to pray in Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:1, Christ does not include or allude to saintly intercession here. Some (that I would not count as the most reliable of theological sources) have said that the concept of this type of intercession is a corruption by Constantine. I don't agree with the previous statement, but is there any instances known of the use of saintly intercession in the Church before the Constantine, or in light of the Bible verses above?

You will not find a smoking gun verse about intercessions in the gospels as it is a moot point. All souls were imprisoned in hell and the veil of seperation was not rent in two till after the crucifixion. There is indirect evidence of course such as how incense was burned by the priests in the inner most part of the sanctuary (closest to God) on behalf of all the prayers of the jewish people who would assemble on outside court of the sanctuary. This is a foreshadowing of the intercessions of the saints. All the people praying on the outside are us the church militant on earth (Luke 1:10). Those in heaven serve as priests burning incense for our prayers, these heavenly saints "on the inside" are the Church triumphant who are before the throne of God (Revelation 5:8-10). This is exactly what the priest Zechariah represented when he alone was in the inner part of the sanctuary adjacent to the holy of holies (Luke 1:11) presenting the prayers of those worshipers "still on the outside" as he alone was granted access to the altar of incense( Luke 1:8-10).

Other verses that allude to this is how angels are given the same mission as the saints. Of course before the resurection it was only angels that were able to carry forth this mission, BUT just as the Baptist's father Zachariah had his prayer heard an angel was sent to him to confirm it (Luke 1:13, 19) we have the prophet Elijah (who never died) was allowed by God to send a letter decades after his translation to warn the king of the coming wrath of God upon him (2Chronicles 21:12). The angel in the book of Zechariah 1:12-14 intercessed to God on behalf of the jewish people. In Tobit 12:12-16, we read, :...And so when you and your daughter in law Sarah prayed I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One....I am Raphael one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

Now the first saints to be prayed to in the Christian church were the martyrs. The anniversary of their martyrdoms were kept with a short hagiography being read, and hymns and prayers of praise recited. From there intercessions and veneration became common. In the Martyrdom account of Justin Martyr and his companions we read the following:

"...Let those who have refused to sacrifice to the gods and to yield to the command of the emperor be scourged and led away to suffer the punishment of decapitation, according to the laws. The Holy Martyrs having glorified God, and having gone forth to the accustomed place, were beheaded, and perfected their testimony in the confession of the Saviour. And some of the faithful having secretly removed their bodies, laid them in a suitable place, the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ having wrought along with them, to Whom be glory for ever and ever.Amen (ch 5)



Another example in the Martyrdom of Polycarp originally written in about 155AD

But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many [of us] desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, "lest," said he, "forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one." This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples... (ch 17)
Since, then, ye requested that we would at large make you acquainted with what really took place, we have for the present sent you this summary account through our brother Marcus. When, therefore, ye have yourselves read this Epistle, be pleased to send it to the brethren at a greater distance, that they also may glorify the Lord, who makes such choice of His own servants......(Ch 20)
Now, the blessed Polycarp suffered martyrdom on the second day of the month Xanthicus just begun, the seventh day before the Kalends of May, on the great Sabbath, at the eighth hour. He was taken by Herod, Philip the Trallian being high priest, Statius Quadratus being proconsul, but Jesus Christ being King for ever, to whom be glory, honour, majesty, and an everlasting throne, from generation to generation. Amen. (Ch. 21)

You can see that the relics of the saints and their veneration already taken root by 155 AD. In the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicitas written in 202 A.D.


...3. Moreover, for the young women the devil prepared a very fierce cow, provided especially for that purpose contrary to custom, rivaling their sex also in that of the beasts. And so, stripped and clothed with nets, they were led forth. The populace shuddered as they saw one young woman of delicate frame, and another with breasts still dropping from her recent childbirth. So, being recalled, they are unbound. Perpetua is first led in. She was tossed, and fell on her loins; and when she saw her tunic torn from her side, she drew it over her as a veil for her middle, rather mindful of her modesty than her suffering. Then she was called for again, and bound up her dishevelled hair; for it was not becoming for a martyr to suffer with dishevelled hair, lest she should appear to be mourning in her glory. So she rose up; and when she saw Felicitas crushed, she approached and gave her her hand, and lifted her up. And both of them stood together; and the brutality of the populace being appeased, they were recalled to the Sanavivarian gate. Then Perpetua was received by a certain one who was still a catechumen, Rusticus by name, who kept close to her; and she, as if aroused from sleep, so deeply had she been in the Spirit and in an ecstasy, began to look round her, and to say to the amazement of all, "I cannot tell when we are to be led out to that cow." And when she had heard what had already happened, she did not believe it until she had perceived certain signs of injury in her body and in her dress, and had recognised the catechumen. Afterwards causing that catechumen and the brother to approach, she addressed them, saying, "Stand fast in the faith, and love one another, all of you, and be not offended at my sufferings."
4. The same Saturus at the other entrance exhorted the soldier Pudens, saying, "Assuredly here I am, as I have promised and foretold, for up to this moment I have felt no beast. And now believe with your whole heart. Lo, I am going forth to that beast, and I shall be destroyed with one bite of the leopard." And immediately at the conclusion of the exhibition he was thrown to the leopard; and with one bite of his he was bathed with such a quantity of blood, that the people shouted out to him as he was returning, the testimony of his second baptism, "Saved and washed, saved and washed." Manifestly he was assuredly saved who had been glorified in such a spectacle. Then to the soldier Pudens he said, "Farewell, and be mindful of my faith; and let not these things disturb, but confirm you." And at the same time he asked for a little ring from his finger, and returned it to him bathed in his wound, leaving to him an inherited token and the memory of his blood. And then lifeless he is cast down with the rest, to be slaughtered in the usual place...... O most brave and blessed martyrs! O truly called and chosen unto the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ! whom whoever magnifies, and honours, and adores, assuredly ought to read these examples for the edification of the Church, not less than the ancient ones, so that new virtues also may testify that one and the same Holy Spirit is always operating even until now, and God the Father Omnipotent, and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, whose is the glory and infinite power for ever and ever. Amen.
 
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Hermit76

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My son Noah says his name day is the second Sunday in December.

...the Sunday between the 11th and 17th of December. It is the Sunday of the Forefathers

Sunday of the Forefathers
 
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Andrei D

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Let me stray a bit from the very theologically sound answers, and add (with fear of being stricken down by Fr Matt) that secondarily, we also repeat certain prayers a lot because they are beautiful and beauty is part of the "sacrifice of praise" we are called to bring forth.

And also because they are instruments of teaching. I mean, there are prayers I have been saying since childhood that still to this day get to blow my mind with their clarifying exactness about topics otherwise impossible to put in words for me.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Let me stray a bit from the very theologically sound answers, and add (with fear of being stricken down by Fr Matt) that secondarily, we also repeat certain prayers a lot because they are beautiful and beauty is part of the "sacrifice of praise" we are called to bring forth.

no need to fear my smiting ability, this is very true and a good point.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Let me stray a bit from the very theologically sound answers, and add (with fear of being stricken down by Fr Matt) that secondarily, we also repeat certain prayers a lot because they are beautiful and beauty is part of the "sacrifice of praise" we are called to bring forth.

And also because they are instruments of teaching. I mean, there are prayers I have been saying since childhood that still to this day get to blow my mind with their clarifying exactness about topics otherwise impossible to put in words for me.
I agree it's a good point. :)

I haven't been praying them all my life, since I'm a convert. But I was struck by how much I myself was shaped by the prayers of the Church, how aware I became during prayer of the majesty of God, how I came to more deeply know and experience the love of God, how aware of my own need for repentance, and so on.

They are definitely instructive, but more than just reading facts in a book, for example.

There is a saying I'm not sure of the origin but I find it very true - "Lex orandi, lex credendi". According to Wikipedia it means that it is prayer which leads to belief, or that it is liturgy which leads to theology. Something like "what we pray, we believe". It is equally appropriate to private prayer, I have found.
 
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Christman811

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Hello! I have come to the conclusion that I have been spiritually weak, and that I have perhaps been relying on my parents too much for religious guidance. I have grown up in a Protestant home, and was baptized in a Pentecostal church. I still live with my parents (and will do so until I graduate college). My mother has returned to the Eastern Orthodox Church after research and doctrinal disagreements with my father. I, too, am strongly considering chrismation in the EO church. I do not think I will make a decision while still at home, as passions are high about the issue, and I do not want to make an emotional decision to join a church. But I do have some questions, one of which is doctrinal:

Praying with the Saints - I (think that I) understand that:
1) They are just as much a part of the Church as the living (if not more).
2) That Christ overcame Death.
3) That Orthodox and Catholics (?) don't pray to them in a worshiping way, but ask them for intercession just as you would ask a living friend to pray for you.
4) That icons are seen kinda like "family photos," (I am actually fond of this idea) and that the icons themselves are not worshiped or prayed to.
5) That the saints do have prayers, as mentioned in Revelations.

My question about this is, that when asked how to pray in Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:1, Christ does not include or allude to saintly intercession here. Some (that I would not count as the most reliable of theological sources) have said that the concept of this type of intercession is a corruption by Constantine. I don't agree with the previous statement, but is there any instances known of the use of saintly intercession in the Church before the Constantine, or in light of the Bible verses above?

My easier (?) questions about Orthodoxy:
How do Baptismal names work? My birthname is Noah, is the biblical Noah considered a saint?
Why are certain prayers repeated a lot?
What is the purpose of Sacraments, this is something that I have always found vague when reading about Orthodoxy.

Sorry for writing a small novel, I did not intend for it to be that long. :)
1) True
2) True
3) True
4) Somewhat...See below.


St John of Damascus may help your understanding:

Chapter XVI.—Concerning Images (Icons).

But since some 2497 find fault with us for worshipping and honouring the image of our Saviour and that of our Lady, and those, too, of the rest of the saints and servants of Christ, let them remember that in the beginning God created man after His own image 2498 . On what grounds, then, do we shew reverence to each other unless because we are made after God’s image? For as Basil, that much-versed expounder of divine things, says, the honour given to the image passes over to the prototype 2499 . Now a prototype is that which is imaged, from which the derivative is obtained. Why was it that the Mosaic people honoured on all hands the tabernacle 2500 which bore an image and type of heavenly things, or rather of the whole creation? God indeed said to Moses, Look that thou make them after their pattern which was shewed thee in the mount 2501 . The Cherubim, too, which o’ershadow the mercy seat, are they not the work of men’s hands 2502 ? What, further, is the celebrated temple at Jerusalem? Is it not hand-made and fashioned by the skill of men 2503 ?

Moreover the divine Scripture blames those who worship graven images, but also those who sacrifice to demons. The Greeks sacrificed and the Jews also sacrificed: but the Greeks to demons and the Jews to God. And the sacrifice of the Greeks was rejected and condemned, but the sacrifice of the just was very acceptable to God. For Noah sacrificed, and God smelled a sweet savour 2504 , receiving the fragrance of the right choice and good-will towards Him. And so the graven images of the Greeks, since they were images of deities, were rejected and forbidden.

But besides this who can make an imitation of the invisible, incorporeal, uncircumscribed, formless God? Therefore to give form to the Deity is the height of folly and impiety. And hence it is that in the Old Testament the use of images was not common. But after God 2505 in His bowels of pity became in truth man for our salvation, not as He was seen by Abraham in the semblance of a man, nor as He was seen by the prophets, but in being truly man, and after He lived upon the earth and dwelt among men 2506 , worked miracles, suffered, was crucified, rose again and was taken back to Heaven, since all these things actually took place and were seen by men, they were written for the remembrance and instruction of us who were not alive at that time in order that though we saw not, we may still, hearing and believing, obtain the blessing of the Lord. But seeing that not every one has a knowledge of letters nor time for reading, the Fathers gave their sanction to depicting these events on images as being acts of great heroism, in order that they should form a concise memorial of them. Often, doubtless, when we have not the Lord’s passion in mind and see the image of Christ’s crucifixion, His saving passion is brought back to remembrance, and we fall down and worship not the material but that which is imaged: just as we do not worship the material of which the Gospels are made, nor the material of the Cross, but that which these typify. For wherein does the cross, that typifies the Lord, differ from a cross that does not do so? It is just the same also in the case of the Mother of the Lord. For the honour which we give to her is referred to Him Who was made of her incarnate. And similarly also the brave acts of holy men stir us up to be brave and to emulate and imitate their valour and to glorify God. For as we said, the honour that is given to the best of fellow-servants is a proof of good-will towards our common Lady, and the honour rendered to the image passes over to the prototype 2507 . But this is an unwritten tradition 2508 , just as is also the worshipping towards the East and the worship of the Cross, and very many other similar things.

A certain tale 2509 , too, is told 2510 , how that when Augarus 2511 was king over the city of the Edessenes, he sent a portrait painter to paint a likeness of the Lord, and when the painter could not paint because of the brightness that shone from His countenance, the Lord Himself put a garment over His own divine and life-giving face and impressed on it an image of Himself and sent this to Augarus, to satisfy thus his desire.

Moreover that the Apostles handed down much that was unwritten, Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, tells us in these words: Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught of us, whether by word or by epistle 2512 . And to the Corinthians he writes, Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the traditions as I have delivered them to you 2513 .”

Footnotes
Some MSS. have the title “Concerning the adoration of the august and holy images,” or “Concerning the holy and sacred images,” or “Concerning holy images.”
Cf. Petavius, Theol. Dogm. xv., ch. 12.
Gen. 1. 26.
Basil, De Spir. Sancto, ch. 18.
Ex. 33. 10.
Exod. 25:40, Heb. 8:5.
Ex. 25. 18.
1 Kings 8.
Gen. 8. 21.
John 1:14, Titus 3:4.
Bar. 3. 38.
Basil, in 40 Mart: also De Spir. Sancto, ch. 27.
Cf. August., Contr. Donatist., bk. iv.
Evagr., Hist. iv., ch. 27.
Procop., De Bellis, 2. ch. 12.
i.e. Abgarus.
2 Thess. 2. 15.
1 Cor. 11. 2.
 
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Christman811

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Concerning your question regarding the sacraments, or mysteries, of the Church:


Chapter XIII.—Concerning the holy and immaculate Mysteries of the Lord.

God 2391 Who is good and altogether good and more than good, Who is goodness throughout, by reason of the exceeding riches of His goodness did not suffer Himself, that is His nature, only to be good, with no other to participate therein, but because of this He made first the spiritual and heavenly powers: next the visible and sensible universe: next man with his spiritual and sentient nature. All things, therefore, which he made, share in His goodness in respect of their existence. For He Himself is existence to all, since all things that are, are in Him 2392 , not only because it was He that brought them out of nothing into being, but because His energy preserves and maintains all that He made: and in especial the living creatures. For both in that they exist and in that they p. 82b enjoy life they share in His goodness. But in truth those of them that have reason have a still greater share in that, both because of what has been already said and also because of the very reason which they possess. For they are somehow more dearly akin to Him, even though He is incomparably higher than they.

Man, however, being endowed with reason and free will, received the power of continuous union with God through his own choice, if indeed he should abide in goodness, that is in obedience to his Maker. Since, however, he transgressed the command of his Creator and became liable to death and corruption, the Creator and Maker of our race, because of His bowels of compassion, took on our likeness, becoming man in all things but without sin, and was united to our nature 2393 . For since He bestowed on us His own image and His own spirit and we did not keep them safe, He took Himself a share in our poor and weak nature, in order that He might cleanse us and make us incorruptible, and establish us once more as partakers of His divinity.

For it was fitting that not only the first-fruits of our nature should partake in the higher good but every man who wished it, and that a second birth should take place and that the nourishment should be new and suitable to the birth and thus the measure of perfection be attained. Through His birth, that is, His incarnation, and baptism and passion and resurrection, He delivered our nature from the sin of our first parent and death and corruption, and became the first-fruits of the resurrection, and made Himself the way and image and pattern, in order that we, too, following in His footsteps, may become by adoption what He is Himself by nature 2394 , sons and heirs of God and joint heirs with Him 2395 . He gave us therefore, as I said, a second birth in order that, just as we who are born of Adam are in his image and are the heirs of the curse and corruption, so also being born of Him we may be in His likeness and heirs 2396 of His incorruption and blessing and glory.

Now seeing that this Adam is spiritual, it was meet that both the birth and likewise the food should be spiritual too, but since we are of a double and compound nature, it is meet that both the birth should be double and likewise the food compound. We were therefore given a birth by water and Spirit: I mean, by the holy baptism 2397 : and the food is the very bread of life, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who came down from heaven 2398 . For when He was about to take on Himself a voluntary death for our sakes, on the night on which He gave Himself up, He laid a new covenant on His holy disciples and apostles, and through them on all who believe on Him. In the upper chamber, then, of holy and illustrious Sion, after He had eaten the ancient Passover with His disciples and had fulfilled the ancient covenant, He washed His disciples’ feet 2399 in token of the holy baptism. Then having broken bread He gave it to them saying, Take, eat, this is My body broken for you for the remission of sins 2400 . Likewise also He took the cup of wine and water and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it: for this is My blood, the blood of the New Testament which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye in remembrance of Me. For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, ye do shew the death of the Son of man and confess His resurrection until He come 2401 .

If then the Word of God is quick and energising 2402 , and the Lord did all that He willed 2403 ; if He said, Let there be light and there was light, let there be a firmament and there was a firmament 2404 ; if the heavens were established by the Word of the Lord and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth 2405 ; if the heaven and the earth, water and fire and air and the whole glory of these, and, in sooth, this most noble creature, man, were perfected by the Word of the Lord; if God the Word of His own will became man and the pure and undefiled blood of the holy and ever-virginal One made His flesh without the aid of seed 2406 , can He not then make the bread His body and the wine and water His blood? He said in the beginning, Let the earth bring forth grass 2407 , and even until this present day, when the rain comes it brings forth its proper fruits, urged on and strengthened by the divine command. God said, This is My body, and This is My blood, and this do ye in remembrance of Me. And so it is at His omnipotent command until He come: for it was in this sense that He said until He come: and the overshadowing power of the Holy Spirit becomes through the invocation the rain to this new tillage 2408 . For just as God made all that He made by the energy of the Holy Spirit, so also now the energy of the p. 83b Spirit performs those things that are supernatural and which it is not possible to comprehend unless by faith alone. How shall this be, said the holy Virgin, seeing I know not a man? And the archangel Gabriel answered her: The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee 2409 . And now you ask, how the bread became Christ’s body and the wine and water Christ’s blood. And I say unto thee, “The Holy Spirit is present and does those things which surpass reason and thought.”

Further, bread and wine 2410 are employed: for God knoweth man’s infirmity: for in general man turns away discontentedly from what is not well-worn by custom: and so with His usual indulgence He performs His supernatural works through familiar objects: and just as, in the case of baptism, since it is man’s custom to wash himself with water and anoint himself with oil, He connected the grace of the Spirit with the oil and the water and made it the water of regeneration, in like manner since it is man’s custom to eat and to drink water and wine 2411 , He connected His divinity with these and made them His body and blood in order that we may rise to what is supernatural through what is familiar and natural.

The body which is born of the holy Virgin is in truth body united with divinity, not that the body which was received up into the heavens descends, but that the bread itself and the wine are changed into God’s body and blood 2412 . But if you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it was through the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took on Himself flesh that subsisted in Him and was born of the holy Mother of God through the Spirit. And we know nothing further save that the Word of God is true and energises and is omnipotent, but the manner of this cannot be searched out 2413 . But one can put it well thus, that just as in nature the bread by the eating and the wine and the water by the drinking are changed into the body and blood of the eater and drinker, and do not 2414 become a different body from the former one, so the bread of the table 2415 and the wine and water are supernaturally changed by the invocation and presence of the Holy Spirit into the body and blood of Christ, and are not two but one 2416 and the same.

Wherefore to those who partake worthily with faith, it is for the remission of sins and for life everlasting and for the safeguarding of soul and body; but to those who partake unworthily without faith, it is for chastisement and punishment, just as also the death of the Lord became to those who believe life and incorruption for the enjoyment of eternal blessedness, while to those who do not believe and to the murderers of the Lord it is for everlasting chastisement and punishment.

The bread and the wine are not merely figures of the body and blood of Christ (God forbid!) but the deified body of the Lord itself: for the Lord has said, “This is My body,” not, this is a figure of My body: and “My blood,” not, a figure of My blood. And on a previous occasion He had said to the Jews, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. For My flesh is meat indeed and My blood is drink indeed. And again, He that eateth Me, shall live 2417 2418 .

Wherefore with all fear and a pure conscience and certain faith let us draw near and it will assuredly be to us as we believe, doubting nothing. Let us pay homage to it in all purity both of soul and body: for it is twofold. Let us draw near to it with an ardent desire, and with our hands held in the form of the cross 2419 let us receive the body of the Crucified One: and let us apply our eyes and lips and brows and partake of the divine coal, in order that the fire of the longing, that is in us, with the additional heat derived from the coal may utterly consume our sins and illumine our hearts, and that we may be inflamed and deified by the participation in the divine fire. Isaiah saw the coal 2420 . But coal is not plain wood but wood united with fire: in like manner also the bread of the communion 2421 is not plain bread but bread united with divinity. But a body 2422 which is united with divinity is not one nature, but has one nature belonging to the body and another belonging to the divinity that is united to it, so that the compound is not one nature but two.

With bread and wine Melchisedek, the priest of the most high God, received Abraham on his return from the slaughter of the Gentiles 2423 . That table pre-imaged this mystical table, just as that priest was a type and image of Christ, the true high-priest 2424 . For thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek 2425 . Of this p. 84b bread the show-bread was an image 2426 . This surely is that pure and bloodless sacrifice which the Lord through the prophet said is offered to Him from the rising to the setting of the sun 2427 .

The body and blood of Christ are making for the support of our soul and body, without being consumed or suffering corruption, not making for the draught (God forbid!) but for our being and preservation, a protection against all kinds of injury, a purging from all uncleanness: should one receive base gold, they purify it by the critical burning lest in the future we be condemned with this world. They purify from diseases and all kinds of calamities; according to the words of the divine Apostle 2428 , For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. This too is what he says, So that he that partaketh of the body and blood of Christ unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself 2429 . Being purified by this, we are united to the body of Christ and to His Spirit and become the body of Christ.

This bread is the first-fruits 2430 of the future bread which is ἐπιούσιος, i.e. necessary for existence. For the word ἐπιούσιον signifies either the future, that is Him Who is for a future age, or else Him of Whom we partake for the preservation of our essence. Whether then it is in this sense or that, it is fitting to speak so of the Lord’s body. For the Lord’s flesh is life-giving spirit because it was conceived of the life-giving Spirit. For what is born of the Spirit is spirit. But I do not say this to take away the nature of the body, but I wish to make clear its life-giving and divine power 2431 .
But if some persons called the bread and the wine antitypes 2432 of the body and blood of the Lord, as did the divinely inspired Basil, they said so not after the consecration but before the consecration, so calling the offering itself.

Participation is spoken of; for through it we partake of the divinity of Jesus. Communion, too, is spoken of, and it is an actual communion, because through it we have communion with Christ and share in His flesh and His divinity: yea, we have communion and are united with one another through it. For since we partake of one bread, we all become one body of Christ and one blood, and members one of another, being of one body with Christ.

With all our strength, therefore, let us beware lest we receive communion from or grant it to heretics; Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, saith the Lord, neither cast ye your pearls before swine 2433 , lest we become partakers in their dishonour and condemnation. For if union is in truth with Christ and with one another, we are assuredly voluntarily united also with all those who partake with us. For this union is effected voluntarily and not against our inclination. For we are all one body because we partake of the one bread, as the divine Apostle says 2434 .

Further, antitypes of future things are spoken of, not as though they were not in reality Christ’s body and blood, but that now through them we partake of Christ’s divinity, while then we shall partake mentally 2435 through the vision alone.
 
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Christman811

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Footnotes
Greg. Naz., Orat. 42; Dion. De div. nom., ch. 3.
Rom. 11. 36.
Heb. 2. 17.
Rom. 7. 17.
Variant, φύσει καὶ κληρονόμοι τῆς αὐτοῦ γενώμεθα χάριτος, και αὐτου υἰοι, καὶ συγκληρονόμοι.
Text, κληρονομήσωμεν. Variant, κληρονομήσαντες.
Chrys. in Matt., Hom. 83; St. John 3. 3.
St. John 6. 48.
John 6.13.
St. Matt. 26. 26; Liturg. S. Jacobi.
Matt. 26:27, 28, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19, 20, 1 Cor. 11:24.
Heb. 4. 12.
Ps. 135. 6.
Gen. 1:3, 6.
Ps. 33. 6.
Text, καὶ τὰ τῆς...καθαρὰ καὶ ἀμώμητα αἵματα ἑαυτῷ. Variant, καὶ ἐκ τῶν τῆς...καθαρῶν καὶ ἀμωμήτων αἱμάτων ἑαυτῳ.
Gen. 1. 11.
Iren.,bk. iv., ch. 35; Fulg., Ad Monim., bk. ii., ch. 6; Chrys., De prod. Judæ; Greg. Nyss., Catech., &c.
St. Luke 1:34, 35.
Nyss., Orat., Catech., ch. 37.
Clem., Constit., bk. viii.; Justin Martyr., Apol. i.; Iren., 5. 2.
Greg. Nyss., Orat. Catech., c. 37.
Simile Nyss. loc. cit.
οὐ is absent in some MSS.
The Greek is ὁ τῆς προθέσεως οἶνος, the bread of the prothesis. It is rendered panis propositionis in the old translations. These phrases designate the Shewbread in the LXX. and the Vulgate. The πρόθεσις is explained as a smaller table placed on the right side of the altar, on which the priests make ready the bread and the cup for consecration. See the note in Migne.
See Niceph., C.P., Antirr. 2. 3.
St. John 6. 51-55.
ζωὴν αἰ& 240·νιον is added in many MSS.
Cyril Hierosol., Cat. Mystag. 5; Chrys. Hom. 3 in Epist. ad Ephes.; Trull. can. 101.
Is. 6. 6.
See Cyril Alex. on Isaiah vi.
Vide Basil, ibid.
Gen. 14. 18.
Lev. 14.
Ps. 110. 4.
Text, εἰκόνιζον. Variant, εἰκονίζουσι.
Mal. 1. 11.
1 Cor. 11:31, 32.
1 Cor. 11.29.
Cyril, loc. cit.
St. John 6. 63.
Anastas., Hodegus, ch. 23.
St. Matt. 7. 6.
1 Cor. 10. 17.
Text, νοητῶς διὰ μόνῆς τῆς Θέας: νοητῶς is wanting in some Reg. 2928 having διὰ μόνης τῆς Θείας ἑνώσεως.
 
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Mr. No'

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Hermit76, that's pretty close to birthday, good to know.

Thanks, Christman. I appreciate it! You all have been very helpful. I've only got two more questions. My mother's priest says that I just need to be chrismated since I have already received a trinitarian baptism: but do I have to go through the catechumen process before chrismation or after, if at all? When would I be able take part in communion or confession?

Thanks!
 
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Hermit76, that's pretty close to birthday, good to know.

Thanks, Christman. I appreciate it! You all have been very helpful. I've only got two more questions. My mother's priest says that I just need to be chrismated since I have already received a trinitarian baptism: but do I have to go through the catechumen process before chrismation or after, if at all? When would I be able take part in communion or confession?

Thanks!
Communion and confession (or at least receiving absolution) are sacramental, so you would need to be received into the Church first, which would be done through chrismation then.

(Receiving Communion will take place at the same time or st the same service where you are Chrismated. Confession varies.)

These are questions to ask the priest. Normally the priest determines when a person is ready to be received. And that generally involves a period of catechism. It's not a particular program or set for a particular length of time.

But if you will permit me - your questions are somewhat basic. So I can assume there is much you still need to understand to make a beginning. It is not a thing really to be rushed, because you need to know what you're being received into.

(Though I'm only going on a few forum posts - of course I don't know you, and hopefully your priest knows you very well!)

It's not like hopping from a Baptist denomination to a Methodist one. This is like a marriage - you don't want to take this step and then later abandon the Church for some denomination. You don't want to do anything that risks making you likely to do that.

If you aren't able to get catechesis where you are, please ask as many questions as you have. Hopefully we can help at least catch you up a little.

God be with you. And please forgive me if my words sound harsh in any way or are discouraging. I just want to suggest care, not discourage you.
 
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