Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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FreeGrace2

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Doug Melven said:
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Do I need to elaborate on this?
2 Peter 2:20-22
Luke 8:13
Hebrews 6:4-6
Luke 15:24
Still trying to pit Scripture against itself, huh.

Nothing in your list says or means loss of salvation. But the only reason you think they do is because you DON'T believe what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28.

Real sad.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Luke 8:13 and
Luke 15:24
Were stated by Jesus Himself.

2 Peter 2:20-22 and
Hebrews 6:4-6
Were stated by Paul, in agreement with Jesus.

All new Christians should know, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that as long as they cling to their Savior and their Lord, Jesus, He will never abandon them.

Jesus is, however, not only our savior but also our Lord.
As our Lord He does expect us to live a Godly life. Jesus knows we cannot be perfect, but He set that for us as an ideal in Mathew 5:48.

Let your light shine before men, let your good deeds glorify God, Mathew 5:15 .

Do not become like salt that has lost its saltiness and has become useless to God and His kingdom.
Mathew 5:13.

Do not deny Jesus, ever, and He will not deny you, either with your mouth, or with your deeds.
 
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Doug Melven

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20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.
Please read the context of that passage. Peter is referring to those who profess godliness but otnly have a show of it, they like to talk about Jesus, but they don't know Jesus. And once they are entangled again the lusts of the flesh, the latter end is worse. God never delivered them, they did it through there own willpower.
Luke 8:13, which is stated by Jesus Himself not be understood????
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
These have no root, so they never got saved.
This is the only passage in the NT that says anything like this. And it has Greek words that are used nowhere else in Scripture.
So, to make a doctrine out of it is not good.
This is probably the best explanation for that passage I have read.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
If they shall fall away,.... This is not supposed of true believers, as appears from Hebrews 6:9 nor is it to be supposed of them that they may fall totally and finally; they may indeed fall, not only into afflictions and temptations, but into sin; and from a lively and comfortable exercise of grace, and from a degree of steadfastness in the Gospel; but not irrecoverably: for they are held and secured by a threefold cord, which can never be broken; by God the Father, who has loved them with an everlasting love, has chosen them in Christ, secured them in the covenant of grace, keeps them by his power, has given them grace, and will give them glory; and by the Son, who has undertook for them, redeemed and purchased them, prays and makes preparations in heaven for them, they are built on him, united to him, and are his jewels, whom he will preserve; and by the Holy Ghost, whose grace is incorruptible, whose personal indwelling is for ever, who himself is the earnest and seal of the heavenly inheritance, and who having begun, will finish the good work of grace: but falling away, so as to perish, may be supposed, and is true of many professors of religion; who may fall from the profession of the Gospel they have made, and from the truth of it, and into an open denial of it; yea, into an hatred and persecution of what they once received the external knowledge of; and so shall fall short of heaven, and into condemnation: for,

to renew them again unto repentance, is a thing impossible: by "repentance" is meant, not baptism of repentance; nor admission to a solemn form of public repentance in the church; nor a legal repentance, but an evangelical one: and so to be "renewed" unto it is not to be baptized again, or to be restored anew to the church by repentance, and absolution; but must be understood either of renovation of the soul, in order to repentance; or of the reforming of the outward conversation, as an evidence of it; or of a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed "again" to repentance does not suppose that persons may have true repentance and lose it; for though truly penitent persons may lose the exercise of this grace for a time, yet the grace itself can never be lost: moreover, these apostates before described had only a show of repentance, a counterfeit one; such as Cain, Pharaoh, and Judas had; and consequently, the renewing of them again to repentance, is to that which they only seemed to have, and to make pretensions unto; now to renew them to a true repentance, which they once made a profession of, the apostle says is a thing "impossible": the meaning of which is not only that it is difficult; or that it is rare and unusual; or that it is unsuitable and improper; but it is absolutely impossible: it is impossible to these men to renew themselves to repentance; renovation is the work of the Holy Ghost, and not of man; and repentance is God's gift, and not in man's power; and it is impossible for ministers to renew them, to restore and bring them back, by true repentance; yea, it is impossible to God himself, not through any impotence in him, but from the nature of the sin these men are guilty of; for by the high, though outward attainments they arrive unto, according to the description of them, their sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost, for which no sacrifice can be offered up, and of which there is no remission, and so no repentance; for these two go together, and for which prayer is not to be made; see Matthew 12:32 and chiefly because to renew such persons to repentance, is repugnant to the determined will of God, who cannot go against his own purposes and resolutions; and so the Jews (l) speak of repentance being withheld by God from Pharaoh, and, from the people of Israel; of which they understand Exodus 9:16 and say, that when the holy blessed God withholds repentance from a sinner, , "he cannot repent"; but must die in his wickedness which he first committed of his own will; and they further observe (m), that he that profanes the name of God has it not in his power to depend on repentance, nor can his iniquity be expiated on the day of atonement, or be removed by chastisement:

seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh; who is truly and properly God, begotten of the Father, and of the same nature with him, in whom he greatly delights; this is Christ's highest name and title; and it was for asserting himself to be the Son of God that he was crucified; and his being so puts an infinite virtue in his sufferings and death; and it heightens the sin of the Jews, and of these apostates, in crucifying him. He was once crucified, and it is both impossible and unnecessary that he should be, properly speaking, "crucified afresh", or "again"; it is impossible, because he is risen from the dead, and will never die more; it is unnecessary, because he has finished and completed what he suffered the death of the cross for; but men may be said to crucify him again, when, by denying him to be the Son of God, they justify the crucifixion of him on that account; and when they lessen and vilify the virtue of his blood and sacrifice; and when both by errors and immoralities they cause him to be blasphemed, and evil spoken of; and when they persecute him in his members: and this may be said to be done "to themselves afresh"; not that Christ was crucified for them before, but that they now crucify him again, as much as in them lies; or "with themselves", in their own breasts and minds, and to their own destruction. Now this being the case, it makes their renewal to repentance impossible; because, as before observed, the sin they commit is unpardonable; it is a denial of Christ, who gives repentance; and such who sin it must arrive to such hardness of heart as to admit of no repentance; and it is just with God to give up such to a final impenitence, as those, who knowingly and out of malice and envy crucified Christ, had neither pardon nor repentance; and besides, this sin of denying Christ to be the Son of God, and Saviour of men, after so much light and knowledge, precludes the way of salvation, unless Christ was to be crucified again, which is impossible; for so the Syriac version connects this clause with the word "impossible", as well as a foregoing one, rendering it, "it is impossible to crucify the Son of God again, and to put him to shame"; and so the Arabic version. Christ was put to open shame at the time of his apprehension, prosecution, and crucifixion; and so he is by such apostates, who, was he on earth, would treat him in the same manner the Jews did; and who do traduce him as an impostor and a deceiver, and give the lie to his doctrines, and expose him by their lives, and persecute him in his saints.

And Luke 15:24 which is also Jesus speaking.
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
This parable is not referring to someone who was saved, lost it and was saved again.
If you follow your interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 you will see that is impossible.
The theme of this parable is the same as the other 2 in this chapter, joy over sinners repenting.
Not to mention all the IF's, Continues, Fallings Away, Standing Fast, Endures, etc.
Blessings and promises for this life are conditional. We may or may not get these blessings. In fact most Christians do not have all of the blessings God promised.
Many Christians deal with sicknesses when they don't have to because they don't take hold of God's promise in Isaiah 53.
I pray the new Christians reading along listen to Jesus
And not to man-made ideas.
I pray for that as well.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Luke 8:13 and
Luke 15:24
Were stated by Jesus Himself.

2 Peter 2:20-22 and
Hebrews 6:4-6
Were stated by Paul, in agreement with Jesus.
Correct. Jesus and Paul always agreed on everything.

We read Jesus saying that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28 and Paul describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

All new Christians should know, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that as long as they cling to their Savior and their Lord, Jesus, He will never abandon them.
You might have not noticed but what you say here is really nothing more than being in charge of your salvation and having to "cling to the Savior" in order to never be abandoned by Him.

That suggests the obvious. Those who lose their grip by whatever means WILL be abandoned by their Savior. Bummer for them.

But we know that is totally false, since Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Quite different, you know?

Jesus is, however, not only our savior but also our Lord.
As our Lord He does expect us to live a Godly life. Jesus knows we cannot be perfect, but He set that for us as an ideal in Mathew 5:48.
All true, and nothing here that leads to losing salvation.

Let your light shine before men, let your good deeds glorify God, Mathew 5:15 .

Do not become like salt that has lost its saltiness and has become useless to God and His kingdom.
Mathew 5:13.
All true and nothing about losing salvation.

Do not deny Jesus, ever, and He will not deny you, either with your mouth, or with your deeds.
The clear message in your statement is that IF you do deny Jesus, He WILL deny you salvation. Unfortunately, there are no such verses. Which you know full well.

And, if true, then you cannot believe what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit in John 16:14 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

So, either Jesus was just confused here, or He just wasn't being truthful.

Which do you think it is?
 
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LoveofTruth

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John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Do I need to elaborate on this?

Yes you need to re consider all your words in this matter and read Matthew 10 about 1000 times more and pray every time you read it.

Again, this is very basic understanding. If a person knows the end result as Jesus does and he sees the future and knows who will believe for a while and who will fall away and not abide in him. Your assuming to much and trying to make the text say what you believe, but it doesn't. We must take it with John 17:6 about Judas once belonging to the father before he was given to Jesus and with Matthew 10 that Judas was one of "his" sheep. That is far different than saying they never were with him or a familiar friend of him at one time, as Judas was. That is far different than saying that Judas was never a sheep sent by Jesus and given power to cast out devils and sent to the lost sheep.

Jesus knew all men. He knows the prophecies , all of them. God has shown things that will happen about Judas in Psalms and other places. But this is not to say he was always in that state.

Even when you read John that Jesus knew those who believed not and also those (Judas) who should betray him). This should betray him, was future.

Even if Jesus knew those who believed not and what they would do, that does not say they never believed and then fell away. In fact, we read that many of his disciples went back and followed him no more. They were at one time followers it seems. But even if they were not ever believers, the text doesn't get specific. Jesus knowing the state of men from their whole life is far different than saying they could never believe and be saved for a while and then fall away as Jesus said some can in Luke 8.

Either way John 6 and later at the supper and betrayal of Jesus was after the beginning of Judas ministry. was after Matthew 10 quite a while after I believe and pointed to a future time when Judas should betray Jesus. and when he would have Satan then enter him. We know at some time Judas fell by transgression in Acts. This is undeniable and it should cause you to pause and consider that he was not always fallen. Also Judas was said to be a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted and then lifted up his heel against him (betrayed him). This also must cause you to pause and reconsider your entire argument.

What's not shown is just because someone leaves God, God forsakes them.
The God who cannot lie gave a promise that He would never leave or forsake us.
scripture corrects this thinking again

2 Chronicles 15:2
"...The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

He is not the one to first forsakes us, he only will forsake us if we forsake him. He will never leave or forsake us as we abide in him through faith unto the end.

But Jesus said


Matthew 10:33
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Notice again it is us who first deny him, not him denying us first.

Judges 10:13
"Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more."

1 Chronicles 28:9
"... if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
 
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LoveofTruth

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This sounds as though Jesus was naive about Judas when He supposedly trusted him.

Well, let's consult the Word again, just to understand reality.

John 2-
23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.
24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people.
25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.
Scripture corrects your teaching again

Psalm 41:9
"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

about Judas

John 13:18
"...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."
 
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Bible2+

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1067:

Man does NOTHING to gain salvation.

That's right with regard to initial salvation (Titus 3:5), but not ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1067:

That is why Jesus died for everyone. So that everyone could be saved.

Jesus Christ's sheep whom He died to save (John 10:11,14-15) are elect people (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1), those who are able to believe in Him (John 10:27), and who will believe in Him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to nonelect people, who cannot ever believe in Him (John 8:42-47), because they are not His sheep (John 10:26).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1068:

There's nothing in the Bible about sin removing salvation.

There is, with regard to unrepentant sin removing ultimate salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

No, it means what God requires is that people believe in His Son.

God also requires obedience to His Son (Hebrews 5:9).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

No such thing as "ultimate salvation".

There is, otherwise 1 Peter 1:5 wouldn't make sense.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

One is either saved or unsaved.

That's right.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

The Bible never speaks of "continued works of faith" in order to be or stay saved either.

It does refer to that idea as "patient continuance in well doing" (Romans 2:6-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

Please provide evidence of being "eternally judged" from [Heb.] 10:27.

Unrepentant Christians will ultimately suffer "judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:27). This is the same idea as Matthew 10:28b.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

The Bible never speaks of "ultimate salvation".

Not in those exact words, just as it never speaks of "The Bible".

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

I know where you're going with this, but you've not done your research on the subjunctive mood. It means IF the condition is met, which is "believes", then the result is guaranteed, which is "not perish".

The result it not guaranteed (Luke 13:3).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

So, what does an "unqualified verse" look like?

Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12), which Jesus qualified with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

All Christians receive eternal life.

Amen. But not all Christians will keep it (Matthew 24:48-51).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

If someone "believed for a while", one CANNOT say "he never believed".

That's right, but John 3:18b doesn't say he never believed.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

Then Jesus was wrong in John 10:28 because he left out that condition.

No, for He expects us to know every verse (Matthew 4:4).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

The sealing with the Holy Spirit is a deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption.

There is no guarantee.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

These verses, like Ephesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30, mean that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

The Holy Spirit IS our eternal security.

Only so long as we don't quench Him (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

The Bible is full of conditions. So what? But there are NO CONDITIONS in John 10:28.

The conditions for John 10:28 are the conditions which the Bible is full of (Isaiah 28:9-10).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1074:

Plus, no one has provided any evidence that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.

Ceasing to believe will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (2 Timothy 2:12b, John 3:36b).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1074:

Paul wrote that "neither the present nor the future" will separate us (believers) from the love of God in Rom 8:38.

Romans 8:38-39 means that nothing outside of Christians' own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 is not contradicting that Christians themselves can wrongly employ their free will, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says: "neither death, nor life", it means that neither Christians' continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless Christians wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1074:

Uh, lying is not equivalent to losing savlation.

It will result in that if done without repentance (Revelation 21:8).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1080:

If belief must continue for salvation to continue, there'd be verses that actually SAY SO.

There are (Hebrews 3:14).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1080:

And, if that were true, then Jesus would have HAD TO say so in John 10:28.

No, He doesn't have to say everything in one verse.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1080:

This sounds as though Jesus was naive about Judas when He supposedly trusted him.

Jesus never trusted any man (John 2:24-25). And for good reason (Luke 22:34, Isaiah 2:22).

In Psalms 41:9, the original Hebrew word (H0982) translated as "trusted" can refer to being "bold" (Proverbs 28:1), in the sense of not fearing. That is, even though Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would eventually betray Him (John 6:64b), He did not fear Judas (cf. Hebrews 13:6).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1081:

Still trying to pit Scripture against itself, huh.

No, joining scriptures together into sound doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1084:

And, if true, then you cannot believe what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit in John 16:14 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Note that the loss of salvation doesn't require the loss of the Holy Spirit.

It is sometimes asked: "But would not Christians losing their salvation require that the Holy Spirit be cast away to suffer in hell?"

The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31). For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:19-20 and Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Son (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9). Also, the Holy Spirit is already in hell, just as He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time. For He is omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-8). And He can be in hell without suffering from it, just as God could cause even some righteous men who were cast into a fiery furnace on the earth not to suffer from it (Daniel 3:23-27).
 
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Bible2+

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Doug Melven said in post #1073:

God pulled us out of that hole we were in, He is not going to put us back.

Only so long as we don't go back there ourselves (2 Peter 2:20-22).

Doug Melven said in post #1073:

There is no way an evil person can become a good person, at least not in God's eyes.

Of course there is, through Jesus (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

Doug Melven said in post #1073:

It does not matter how much good that person does, He will NEVER become good on His own.

That's right.

On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Doug Melven said in post #1073:

The only point where the person's will was involved was in believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

The will is not involved in initial salvation (John 1:13).

Doug Melven said in post #1073:

Then God promised that He would be merciful to our unrighteousness and our sins and lawless deeds He would remember no more.

Only so long as we repent from them (Hebrews 10:26-29) and confess them to God (1 John 1:9).

Doug Melven said in post #1073:

So, if all this is true and we can't lose what God has given us ( Romans 11:29) . . .

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This means that God does not repent from His election of people to initial salvation, that is, their election (their choosing) by God to become Christians at some point during their lifetime (Romans 11:26-28, Acts 13:48b). But Christians still have to diligently do the right things in order to make their calling and election sure, to their ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).

Doug Melven said in post #1073:

Would still go to Heaven but definitely would not be one of the ones that are going to reign.

Unrepentant Christians will not go to heaven (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #1073:

It shows we are kept by God's power.

1 Peter 1:5 means that Christians are guarded ("kept") by the power of God "through" their faith in Jesus Christ. But the Bible gives no assurance that Christians will choose to continue in the faith to the end, and not at some point wrongly employ their free will to depart from the faith, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, 1 Peter 1:5 refers to the "salvation ready to be revealed in the last time", which is ultimate salvation, as opposed to initial (current) salvation. Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1078:

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

John 6:64 does not require that Judas was never a Christian, or even that he was not a Christian at the time that John 6:64 was spoken. For it is possible for someone to be a Christian now, and betray Jesus Christ later (Luke 8:13). And even John 6:70 does not require that Judas was not a Christian at that time. For even devils can be believers (James 2:19). Also, John 6:64 included a wider group than just the twelve apostles. For it included many people who stopped following Jesus at that time (John 6:66), while Judas continued to follow Jesus at that time.

Doug Melven said in post #1078:

The God who cannot lie gave a promise that He would never leave or forsake us.

Only so long as we don't forsake Him (2 Timothy 2:12b).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #1083:

Peter is referring to those who profess godliness but otnly have a show of it, they like to talk about Jesus, but they don't know Jesus.

2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #1083:

These [in Luke 8:13] have no root, so they never got saved.

They did get saved, for they believed (Luke 8:13).

Doug Melven quoted Gill in post #1083:

This [Hebrews 6:4-6] is not supposed of true believers, as appears from Hebrews 6:9 . . .

Hebrews 6:9 simply means that the writer of the book of Hebrews was persuaded that the first century AD Christians whom he was originally addressing were not apostate.

Hebrews 6:9 was not contradicting Hebrews 6:4-8, which shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Did the enemy of Christ take away the free will of men still walking, to get them to be unable to learn the truth once they 'fatally' disobey God sinning the sin that leads to death ?
Or does God Himself take away the free will of men who continually refuse to acknowledge the truth, who refuse to trust Him and rely on man's constructs instead ?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Scripture corrects your teaching again

Psalm 41:9
"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."


about Judas

John 13:18
"...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."
Anyone is free to believe that Jesus wasn't omniscient. But I know otherwise.

I also recommend reading the entire 41st Psalm. It's about having regard for the weak.

I'm sure David was speaking of himself in v.9. He had a lot of enemies, in whom he trusted, and who turned against him.

Also notice that Jn 13:18 doesn't quote the whole verse, just one part. Why did John leave out the "in whom I trusted" part? Because Jesus never trusted him.

In fact, you've been shown the verse where Jesus says He chose him and he was a devil.

And why do you ignore John 2:25 - He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

So, it is obvious that Jesus never trusted him. He did eat bread with Judas, in order to fulfill Scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1067:

Man does NOTHING to gain salvation.
That's right with regard to initial salvation (Titus 3:5), but not ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).
Where is this supposed "ultimate salvation" mentioned in Scripture? It isn't in either of your references. Until evidence is shared, there is no reason to accept your opinion.

Jesus Christ's sheep whom He died to save (John 10:11,14-15) are elect people (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1)
Nope. Just read John 10 carefully and count the various sheep in it.
1. THE sheep
2. My sheep
3. other sheep of Mine
4. not of My sheep

Jesus noted 4 categories. Guess which category He said He would die for. The first one; THE sheep. Isn't it obvious that THE sheep covers all the other categories? Jesus died for everyone. 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2.

those who are able to believe in Him (John 10:27), and who will believe in Him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to nonelect people, who cannot ever believe in Him (John 8:42-47), because they are not His sheep (John 10:26).
I don't believe the unsubstantiated claims of Calvinism.

There is, with regard to unrepentant sin removing ultimate salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).
Still waiting for evidence from Scripture. None of the verses provided do that.

God also requires obedience to His Son (Hebrews 5:9).
Yes He does. But not for salvation. Again, where's the evidence.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation
Oh, so now we have a "contract" for this so-called ultimate salvation.

This just keeps getting more interesting all the time. lol

Again, evidence.

It does refer to that idea as "patient continuance in well doing" (Romans 2:6-8).
Do you believe eternal life can be obtained by this "patient continuance in well doing"?

Unrepentant Christians will ultimately suffer "judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:27). This is the same idea as Matthew 10:28b.
I won't argue with this. But, now please prove that "judgment and fiery indignation" means "go to hell".

That's right, but John 3:18b doesn't say he never believed.
I'm getting tired of trying to discuss with those with tightly closed minds.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Those who do not understand that the red words mean "never believed" are irrational.

If a person EVER believed, even "for a while", it CANNOT be said of them that they "have not believed", because they HAVE at one time.

So, let's just quit this nonsense. John 3:18 is about those who have not believed, and that means they never believed.

No, for He expects us to know every verse (Matthew 4:4).
Are you going to claim that you know every verse?

FreeGrace2 said in post #1070:

I know where you're going with this, but you've not done your research on the subjunctive mood. It means IF the condition is met, which is "believes", then the result is guaranteed, which is "not perish".
There is no guarantee.
You keep missing the point of the subjunctive mood. IF the condition IS met, then the outcome or result IS GUARANTEED.

I recommend investing in a good Greek lexicon.

You're treating the subjunctive mood as if EVEN IF the condition is met, the result or outcome isn't guaranteed.

Totally in error.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

These verses, like Ephesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30, mean that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming
Do you understand what an "earnest" means? It's a PROMISE.

Does God keep His promises, or not?
I'll help you out here.

Heb 6:18 - God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

So, the FACT that God cannot lie means that He KEEPS all His promises.

The conditions for John 10:28 are the conditions which the Bible is full of (Isaiah 28:9-10).
Nonsense. Anyone familiar with language can easily see NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

In fact, the CONDITION for never perishing is to receive eternal life. Period.

Eternal security.

Ceasing to believe will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (2 Timothy 2:12b, John 3:36b).
Again, nothing in these verses say this. You are reading INTO verses what isn't there.

That is called "eisegesis". What you need to do is use exegesis.

Romans 8:38-39 means that nothing outside of Christians' own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love.
Except Paul failed to add YOUR OPINION in the passage. There's nothing about anything "outside of free will actions". Paul was clear, but once again, you're guilty of eiesgesis, which is your own opinion, rather than letting the verse speak for itself.

Paul said there is nothing "in the present or future". ps: he left out anything about free will actions.

No, He doesn't have to say everything in one verse.
Regarding eternal security, He did. John 10:28 tells us in one verse who the CAUSE is of having eternal security, and what the EFFECT is of having eternal life.

The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31). For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:19-20 and Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Son (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9). Also, the Holy Spirit is already in hell, just as He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time. For He is omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-8). And He can be in hell without suffering from it, just as God could cause even some righteous men who were cast into a fiery furnace on the earth not to suffer from it (Daniel 3:23-27).
All this is easily refuted by 2 Tim 2:13.

God cannot deny Himself, and since you agree that the Holy Spirit will not leave the believer, regardless of anything the believer might do, that believer cannot end up in hell, for the Holy Spirit will never be there.

Your very long post is just chock full of eisegesis. Which is the problem.
 
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Doug Melven

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Again, this is very basic understanding. If a person knows the end result as Jesus does and he sees the future and knows who will believe for a while and who will fall away and not abide in him. Your assuming to much and trying to make the text say what you believe, but it doesn't. We must take it with John 17:6 about Judas once belonging to the father before he was given to Jesus and with Matthew 10 that Judas was one of "his" sheep. That is far different than saying they never were with him or a familiar friend of him at one time, as Judas was. That is far different than saying that Judas was never a sheep sent by Jesus and given power to cast out devils and sent to the lost sheep.
If you can somehow prove that Judas did belong to Jesus through faith this would in itself prove eternal security for the rest of the sheep that belonged to Jesus. Because as you said, Jesus knew everything and He said that Judas was the only He lost. Unless you are going to tell me that Jesus didn't know what He was talking about.
2 Chronicles 15:2
"...The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake
you."
You will notice that this verse is found in the Old Covenant which was conditional.
The New Covenant we are under is unconditional.
Because God said when He was going to make a New Covenant it would not be like the Old Covenant that they broke. Therefore once we are under the New Covenant, we cannot break it.
Because the New Covenant is not made with us, it is a Covenant between Father and Son. We can only accept or reject. If we accept it we have eternal life.
If we reject it, we are cursed. See Hebrews 10:26-29
Notice again it is us who first deny him, not him denying us first.

Judges 10:13
"Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more."


1 Chronicles 28:9
"... if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Again, look which Covenant you found these verses under.
There is no guarantee.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
You should really do your homework before making such a statement.
A down payment by a human does not guarantee future payment will be made.
A down payment by God on the other hand is a different story. If God says He is going to do something, you can consider it an accomplished fact.
Strong's No.:
G728
Greek:
ἀῤῥαβών
Transliteration:
arrhabōn
Pronunciation:
ar-hrab-ohn'
Definition: Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge that is part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest:- earnest.
Ceasing to believe will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (2 Timothy 2:12b, John 3:36b).
Note that neither one of those Scriptures say that.
You make the assumption that this referring to loss of eternal life which God promised with an oath that He would give,
Doug said, A good person can become an evil person.
And this is your reply.
Of course there is, through Jesus (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Note there is nothing in this passage about a good person becoming evil.
But, through Jesus, an evil person can become good, not through there own effort but by the Lord Jesus.
On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9)
I just thought that it should be pointed out that you believe we can earn a free gift from God.
Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.

Only so long as we repent from them (Hebrews 10:26-29) and confess them to God (1 John 1:9).
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
I think everybody can see that there is nothing about repentance in this passage. It is not implied in any way shape or form.
Reject the New Covenant and you have no hope. Pretty simple.
1 John 1:9 If we confess out sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Do you believe this?
Believers are forgiven of all sin and cleansed from all unrighteousness.
This is not just past sins, God knows every sin we will ever commit and has forgiven us.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This means that God does not repent from His election of people to initial salvation, that is, their election (their choosing) by God to become Christians at some point during their lifetime (Romans 11:26-28, Acts 13:48b). But Christians still have to diligently do the right things in order to make their calling and election sure, to their ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).
No, the verse means what it says.
This strange doctrine of initial and ultimate salvation is not found in Scripture. It came from the mind of a man, not God.
 
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LoveofTruth

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If you can somehow prove that Judas did belong to Jesus through faith this would in itself prove eternal security for the rest of the sheep that belonged to Jesus. Because as you said, Jesus knew everything and He said that Judas was the only He lost. Unless you are going to tell me that Jesus didn't know what He was talking about.

No it would simply show that the others abided in him and continued in the faith and did not betray Jesus as Judas. They did not fall away by transgression.

Also we know that Jesus asked all the 12 if they would go away also. They had a choice to do so. But they did not.

"67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"(John 6:67 KJV)

You will notice that this verse is found in the Old Covenant which was conditional.
The New Covenant we are under is unconditional.

I was showing God's character that he does not forsake us but we can forsake him. God never changes. even if he makes a new covenant and gives us the completion of His plan in Jesus and the gifts and the Holy Ghost.

But Jesus also said

Matthew 10:33
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (deny means to reject)


So you are corrected again by scripture and the OSAS doctrine does not stand.

and we read of God's character in the OT

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;..."


does this mean he can change in the NT?
 
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Doug Melven

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People keep bringing up James 2 to say that we can lose our salvation.
They like verse 14 that says
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

And they are like see, if you don't have works, you lost your salvation.
But that is not what this verse is talking about at all.
These are people who do not have faith, but they say they do. And there are no works to accompany that faith.
So, basically, James is calling this hypothetical person out and calling him a liar.

Another on they like to use is Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Note that just calling Jesus Lord without having a relationship with Jesus will get you a quick trip downwards on judgment day.
But if you did the will of the Father, that is Believe on Jesus you now have a relationship with Jesus.
 
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Danthemailman

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The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

*To believe the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
 
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Doug Melven

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I was showing God's character that he does not forsake us but we can forsake him. God never changes. even if he makes a new covenant and gives us the completion of Hos plan in Jesus and the gifts and the Holy Ghost.
Did you know that God promised He would make a New Covenant, which would not be like the Old Covenant?
Under the Old Covenant God would remember there sins.
Under the New Covenant God said He would not remember our sins.
And why did He make this New Covenant?
Because He found fault with the Old Covenant. Hebrews 8.
And if you look in that chapter you will see where the fault was. It was people, that's right, you and I and everybody else.
Did God change His character? No.
Did God change how He would deal with people? Yes.
So you are corrected again by scripture and the OSAS doctrine does not stand.

and we read of God's character in the OT

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;..."


does this mean he can change in the NT?
Check out these verses from Isaiah.
54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

This says He did forsake them for a little while.
Then with a strong oath He says that He will not remove the Covenant of peace from us and He would not be mad at us.
But you say there is a point where He won't be mad at us, and if we don't live up to expectations He will be mad at us.
You are corrected by Scripture.
I was not corrected by Scriptures taken out of context.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Did you know that God promised He would make a New Covenant, which would not be like the Old Covenant?
Under the Old Covenant God would remember there sins.
Under the New Covenant God said He would not remember our sins.
And why did He make this New Covenant?
Because He found fault with the Old Covenant. Hebrews 8.
And if you look in that chapter you will see where the fault was. It was people, that's right, you and I and everybody else.
Did God change His character? No.
Did God change how He would deal with people? Yes.

Check out these verses from Isaiah.
54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

This says He did forsake them for a little while.
Then with a strong oath He says that He will not remove the Covenant of peace from us and He would not be mad at us.
But you say there is a point where He won't be mad at us, and if we don't live up to expectations He will be mad at us.
You are corrected by Scripture.
I was not corrected by Scriptures taken out of context.
Look at the verses again

2 Chronicles 15:2
"...The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake
you”


First point is to be with the Lord.

No man is with the lord unless he hears his voice in the heart and receives his word even in the OT

But notice that the Lord is with them while they be with him. This is similar to Jesus saying if any man abide in him (this is also eith him) he will abide in them

Also read if ye seek him, he will be found of thee. Notice it did not say if you seek to keep the law only you will be found of Him. No they are to seek God and his righteousness.

Jesus said similar

Luke 11 - 9. And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”

Also

If Israel went after other Gods this was idolatry and God would forsake them
Today also and in the New Covenant ifcany are idolaters they will end up in the lake if fire and God will forsake them

Joshua 24 - 20. If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.”

Isn’t idolatry still a sin today?

Revelation 21 - 8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

We’re not these also sins in the OT that God would forsake them for?

Yes
 
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Doug Melven

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Look at the verses again

2 Chronicles 15:2
"...The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake
you”


First point is to be with the Lord.

No man is with the lord unless he hears his voice in the heart and receives his word even in the OT

But notice that the Lord is with them while they beceith him. This is similar to Jesus saying if any man abide in him (this is also eith him) he will abide in them

Also read if ye seek him, he will be found of thee. Notice it did not say if you seek to keep the law only you will be found of Him. No they are to seek God and his righteousness.

Jesus said similar

Luke 11 - 9. And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.”

Also

If Israel went after other Gods this was idolatry and God would forsake them
Today also and in the New Covenant ifcany are idolaters they will end up in the lake if fire and God will forsake them

Joshua 24 - 20. If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.”

Isn’t idolatry still a sin today?

Revelation 21 - 8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

We’re not these also sins in the OT that God would forsake them for?

Yes
So by taking these 2 NT verses out of context you are saying that there is n difference between the Old and New Covenants?
That's sad.
 
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GodsGrace101

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How does God deliver us?
Salvation is salvation,,,don't you believe this?
John 3:16 If we believe in the Lord Jesus we are saved. We have to be delivered? I don't know what this means...
If you mean that God delivers out of temptation?
Then see 2 Peter 2:9
God delivers THE GODLY out of temptation.
He will not or could not deliver the UNGODLY out of temptation because they are not saved.

2 Peter 2:20 is speaking about false teachers who are now speaking incorrect doctrine.

verse 20 they had escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the LORD AND SAVIOR, Jesus.
verse 15 says that these teachers did FORSAKE the right way, which means that at some time they knew the RIGHT way of salvation.

So between verses 15 and 20 we can understand that at some point these false teachers were saved.

Verse 20: "they are AGAIN entangled [in the defilements of the world] The word AGAIN means that they were entangled, then they were NOT entangled, and then they became entangled AGAIN, thus losing salvation at this point.

They are OVERCOME, and are worse off than before (they knew the Lord).

Verse 21 Again confirms that they DID KNOW the way of righteousness but then turned away from the holy commandments delivered to them.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
These have no root, so they never got saved.
I really hesitate to debate something JESUS HIMSELF said!
Luke 8:13 HE said "Which for A WHILE BELIEVED, and in time of temptation fall away".

I don't believe this needs any further comment.
Jesus said they believed for a while. Do you suppose He didn't know what BELIEVE means? Then they FELL AWAY. Do you suppose Jesus didn't know what fall away means??


This is the only passage in the NT that says anything like this. And it has Greek words that are used nowhere else in Scripture.
So, to make a doctrine out of it is not good.
I agree with you. I only used it to show that it is possible to fall away from belief in Jesus.
I removed Gill's exposition for space. Also, we can pick and choose our commentators - personally, I like to go by what I've learned in churches - which do agree in loss of salvation, BTW.
God will always take us back when we're ready to go back to Him. It is, however, possible, to fall away and loose our salvation if we do not stay with Him.

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
This parable is not referring to someone who was saved, lost it and was saved again.
If you follow your interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 you will see that is impossible.
The theme of this parable is the same as the other 2 in this chapter, joy over sinners repenting.
It is over sinners repenting.
But the son WAS WITH THE FATHER, in the beginning. He even asked for his inheritance, which the father gave the son.

Then the son left HIS HOME AND FATHER and went away to live his OWN LIFE. He realized what a mistake he had made and RETURNED HOME.

We could debate what Paul said, but Jesus we cannot debate.
Luke 15:13 The son squandered his estate.
Luke 15:17 The son realizes he'd made a big mistake.
Luke 15:18-19 "I am no longer worthy to be called your son".
He had gotten his inheritance, he had left. He was really no longer part of the family; he had walked away from it.

Luke 15:21 Same as 18-19
Luke 15:24 The father forgives him and is happy to have him back. The father says "this son of mine was DEAD, and has come to life AGAIN, he was LOST, and has been FOUND.
(the son was saved, lost, saved AGAIN)

This is truly self-explanatory and simple.

Blessings and promises for this life are conditional. We may or may not get these blessings. In fact most Christians do not have all of the blessings God promised.
Many Christians deal with sicknesses when they don't have to because they don't take hold of God's promise in Isaiah 53.

I pray for that as well.
Blessings and promises and curses were given to the NATION OF ISRAEL when God made covenants with them.

By your reasoning, if I get sick, it's because I didn't do this or that? What kind of teaching is that for a new Christian who will blame himself for sickness instead of satan, who is the real culprit??

God gives us ONLY blessings, personally.
Curses come from the evil one, NOT FROM GOD, who is love incarnate.
1 John 4:8
 
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