Harmony or Conflict?

2Timothy2:15 said:

Not allowing unrepentant homosexuals to fellowship is "legalism"? I think it is sound doctrine and sound practice to protect the flock.

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Not only that , it is commanded by Yahweh. Those who bring in perverted sinners who don't repent will suffer the same or worse judgment with them, according to Yahweh's Word.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

You sealed your own judgment.

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I am saved by Jesus who I believe in his death and My works are my evidence.

Jesus saved me from hell already so how have I sealed my own judgment?

Anyone who rejects Jesus seals their own judgment.
"Weymouth New Testament
"He who listens to you listens to me; and he who disregards you disregards me, and he who disregards me disregards Him who sent me."

World English Bible
Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me. Whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Young's Literal Translation
'He who is hearing you, doth hear me; and he who is putting you away, doth put me away; and he who is putting me away, doth put away Him who sent me.'"

yeshuaslavejeff said:

You sealed your own judgment.

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Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

So there you go, he never said if you don't believe in any messenger or other man or other writings.

I believe in Him, only him, no one else.

Danielwright2311 said:

I believe in Him, only him, no one else.

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As His Word Says Clearly, that is not a true statement from you.
HE says, if you reject Paul, you reject Him and you reject His Father.

There is no exception.

Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums
Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules
"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

As His Word Says Clearly, that is not a true statement from you.
HE says, if you reject Paul, you reject Him and you reject His Father.

There is no exception.

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Where does it say if I reject Paul?

What scripture did Jesus say this?????????

There is none.

Danielwright2311 said:

Three times Jesus in the Book of Revelation condemns eating meat sacrificed to idols, even saying this is the doctrine of a false prophet. (Rev. 2:6, 14 (Ephesus); Rev. 2:14-15 (Pergamum); Revelation 2:20 (Thyatira).)

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Revelations 2
6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
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14‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts ofimmorality. 15‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

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20‘But I have thisagainst you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.


Jesus was rebuking the Nicolaitians (churches influenced by Nicholas) who taught that the Law had been abolished, so they could do anything without fear, even sin by taking part in orgies after sacrificing to idols.

In fact, Jesus declared all foods clean. It was the sinning He was against.

Mark 7
18“Are you still so dull?” He asked. “Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into his stomachand then is eliminated.” (Thus all foods are clean.) 20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him.

Ken Rank said:

I don't disagree... but there is a difference between having a standard and enforcing that standard on others... that is legalism.

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I believe you are misapplying the term "legalism". Every church or denomination must have a Statement of Faith based upon Scripture as well as certain Christian standards based on Scripture.

So the OP is asking what to do if the church is violating its own standards. Well the poster can certainly speak up and find that it will make no difference, once the church has gone downhill, or he can simply state his objections and move on. Those in error will almost never repent.

If homosexuality is being promoted as being acceptable for Christians, then that is clearly apostasy. But if the church or denomination or conference has decided that they will take the unbiblical position, it is already too late.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums
Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules
"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture."

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Yes, a letter written BY PAUL NOT JESUS

Wordkeeper said:

Revelations 2
6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
.....................
14‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts ofimmorality. 15‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

20‘But I have thisagainst you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.


Jesus was rebuking the Nicolaitians (churches influenced by Nicholas) who taught that the Law had been abolished, so they could do anything without fear, even sin by taking part in orgies after sacrificing to idols.

In fact, Jesus declared all foods clean. It was the sinning He was against.

Mark 7
18“Are you still so dull?” He asked. “Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into his stomachand then is eliminated.” (Thus all foods are clean.) 20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him.

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What scripture did Jesus when he was alive on earth before he died state all foods are clean?

Danielwright2311 said:

What scripture did Jesus when he was alive on earth before he died state all foods are clean?

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See Post 148 last line.

Wordkeeper said:

See Post 148 last line.

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So then you are saying eating foods sacrificed to fake Gods is ok??

Because if that's what you saying then I cant listen to you as you are teaching others to break Gods commandment.

Jesus is not talking about foods sacrificed to other Gods here, he is talking about dirty food. They all where so worried about being dirty.

Danielwright2311 said:

So then you are saying eating foods sacrificed to fake Gods is ok??

Because if that's what you saying then I cant listen to you as you are teaching others to break Gods commandment.

Jesus is not talking about foods sacrificed to other Gods here, he is talking about dirty food. They all where so worried about being dirty.

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Leviticus 11
1The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2“Tell the Israelites: ‘This is the kind of creature you may eat from among all the animals that are on the land. 3You may eat any among the animals that has a divided hoof (the hooves are completely split in two) and that also chews the cud.4However, you must not eat these from among those that chew the cud and have divided hooves: The camel is unclean to you because it chews the cud even though its hoof is not divided. 5The rock badger is unclean to you because it chews the cud even though its hoof is not divided. 6The hare is unclean to you because it chews the cud even though its hoof is not divided. 7The pig is unclean to you because its hoof is divided (the hoof is completely split in two), even though it does not chew the cud. 8You must not eat from their meat and you must not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

Camels are dirty?

The dietary laws were given to make it difficult for Jews to mix with pagans. Once Gentiles were included, they were not needed.

Meat offered to idols was cheap. A Christian could buy it if there was no new believer around who did not know how the separation laws in the Old Covenant was made not compulsory.

You should study the history. Don't reject things off hand.

And please answer my circumcision post. Hint: It's a separation Law.

Danielwright2311 said:

Paul contradicting Jesus is not any one opinion, its fact

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But then Jesus said all sorts of things which appear to contradict if you are too litera.
Take. "honour your father" "hate your father" "call no man father". Which are contradictory at first sight. As is the fact that (elsewhere) God asks others to call themselves father - even adopt that name in Abrahams case!

But if you understand context , understand figures of speech, and see what the apostolic succession thought he meant there is no contradiction.

Sothe contradiction is superficial not real.


So your interpretation of Paul and Jesus, may well be the problem..

2Timothy2:15 said:

And if they don't take their medicine and listen to the doctor they remain sick and there is no point for them to remain in the hospital is there...

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Is that what you would say to Jesus when he said that to the Pharisees? The point of the message is they are trying to learn about Jesus. It’s not whether they should remain in the hospital the question is should they be refused treatment if they are coming to hear the word of God. Seeking the word of God is not refusing treatment. Everyone is a sinner and if sinners aren’t allowed in the church it would be either empty or full of liars and hypocrites. Jesus said if you are guilty of breaking one of the commandments you are guilty of breaking all of them. God views it as you either kept His commandments or you didn’t. There’s no in between.

Wordkeeper said:

Do you have a problem remembering this:

1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you,and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man hashis father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?

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One thing you must consider is they must be a believer before you kick them out, and how long before you go to that person and invite them back? You cannot kick them out if they are not a believer.

Wordkeeper said:

Do you have a problem remembering this:

1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you,and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man hashis father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?

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There’s also another difference that this man was boasting about his sin and the church didn’t rebuke him. It truly saddens me to see that a church of God would take such an unnecessary approach that could be more harmful to that person than good. So where do you draw the line? Smokers banned, how about people with expensive jewelry or sports cars and other worldly pesessions? Maybe someone is too timid to share the gospel with others or worries or doubts? These are just a few examples of living in sin. If smokers are banned what about other unhealthy habits? Drinking coffee, fast food, maybe someone is obese because they don’t take care of their body, will they also be rejected because they are living in sin? And how often do you sin? Do you not sin on a daily basis? How often is committing sin considered to be living in sin? So like I said where do you draw the line between people who are not as righteous as you are and yourself? Do we compare their sins to ours? Is that the standard? What if someone else is more righteous than you? Should they then kick you out? This is a terrible idea. I was a terrible sinner when I came to my church and after believing I backslid many times and if I had been kicked out of the church for it I guarantee I would’ve been too ashamed to ever step foot in a place where I knew that people would be judging me. This sounds more like a members only club.

Danielwright2311 said:

There is no reason to go against Jesus words out of context.

There is another point, if Paul writes out of context then we still should not follow it.

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He is not witting out of context and this is off topic anyhow.

Micah888 said:

I believe you are misapplying the term "legalism". Every church or denomination must have a Statement of Faith based upon Scripture as well as certain Christian standards based on Scripture.

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Every word has more than one meaning. It is legalistic and by the way, consistent with what we see in the NT, when one takes halacha (man made decrees generally based on Scripture) and creates a situation where one must adhere to halacha in order to become part of your group. We need standards, I don't argue that... but when we use our interpretations of Scripture, assume we are 100% correct on everything, and then keep others who are perhaps not as far along in their understand at-bay from the group... I think we become legalistic in that sense. By the way, our congregation does not have a statement of faith. God gave us instructions on how to live... they suffice, for us, as that statement.

Be blessed.
Ken