What Was God’s Intention For The Atonement?

What did God intend at the cross?

  • Actually save all

    Votes: 4 9.3%
  • Make salvation possible for all

    Votes: 27 62.8%
  • Actually save some

    Votes: 12 27.9%

  • Total voters
    43

fhansen

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You are assuming failure. Failure of God to keep His promises.

I'm not arguing one can live in sin and claim to be a child of God. My point is God is faithful and true to equip the saints to endure. He keeps His promises. He preserves us so we persevere. That is truly the trust and faith He desires from us.
The point was that those who think they have trust and faith now, won't necessarily stand firm until the end. We don't know with 100% certainty if we're the recipients of the promise, if we're numbered among the elect, if we'll persevere. Scripture says that God desires none to perish, and yet we know that some will perish, some while crying, "Lord, Lord...". God, alone, knows with that kind of certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. When we presume to know, we're putting the cart ahead of the horse. All Scripture that encourages us to see ourselves as children of God must also be balanced against those passages that warn against the possibility of losing that status. Both are given for our benefit.
 
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Marvin Knox

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The operative words are “possible” and “actual”. When Jesus died, did he actually secure the salvation of elect individuals in that moment? Or did he only make salvation possible in that moment?
God made it possible for all who would believe to be saved.

I.e. - The sacrifice made was sufficient for every man woman and child on earth to be justified before God through faith - bar none.

He died for every man, woman, and child on earth so that who so ever believes will be saved by so doing.

If you want to call that "Arminianism" - so be it.

Whether a fallen man, woman or child will, or indeed can, in and of themselves, believe and be justified is another question entirely. The answer to that question is "NO" according to the scriptures.

The vehicle for making them able and willing to believe is drawing and enabling some whom the Father has chosen to do so for (i.e - the elect of God).

So called "limited atonement" is not true according to the scriptures. You and I are living proof of that.

God "secured" salvation for no one including His elect.

You and I were as lost a Satan before believing on Christ. All of the elect were enemies of God and children of wrath even as the rest until such time that God acted on them in order that they might believe and be translated into the Kingdom of God.

Whatever your definition of "atonement" is - it does not teach that it is only for the elect.

Again - every Calvinist (including John Calvin himself) believes that salvation is only "potential" up until saving faith is exercised.

Teaching the logically and scripturally unwarranted doctrine of limited atonement only muddies the waters of the gospel.

God died for all - and it truly grieves Him that all will not believe and be saved.

While the concept of His permissive vs. His ultimate will must remain a mystery this side of the veil - the scriptures do indeed teach His willingness that all would believe and be saved and that only the elect will be enabled to do so.

Exactly as John Calvin (and the Calvinist Westminster Confession of Faith) say.

Why so called "5 point" Calvinists can't leave it at that and feel that they need to go beyond what the scriptures clearly teach - is a mystery to me.

Calvin must be rolling over in his grave.
 
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redleghunter

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The point was that those who think they have trust and faith now, won't necessarily stand firm until the end. We don't know with 100% certainty if we're the recipients of the promise, if we're numbered among the elect, if we'll persevere.
The very definition above of disbelief in the promises of God.

Scripture says that God desires none to perish, and yet we know that some will perish, some while crying, "Lord, Lord...". God, alone, knows with that kind of certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. When we presume to know, we're putting the cart ahead of the horse.
Remember the ones crying "lord, lord" Christ says "I never knew you." Notice those who are crying this out and enumerating their works. Shows they were trusting in their work and not the finished works of Christ.

However, even the leader among the apostles opines on this matter in affirmative that the promises of God are secure:

1 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.


All Scripture that encourages us to see ourselves as children of God must also be balanced against those passages that warn against the possibility of losing that status. Both are given for our benefit.
Maybe you could point me to the passages where the loss of status is opined upon. I do know apostasy is mentioned in Hebrews, however that alone shows a complete disbelief in God's promises as sure and one becomes an enemy to the Gospel. We could discuss the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of the soils which point this out.

I do agree with you the NT is full of examples of encouraging, exhorting and correcting Christians to walk in the Spirit and not lust after the flesh. This is to be expected as the regenerated 'inner man' (2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 7:22–23) wars against the flesh (Romans 7:21-25).

From the very same chapter of 1 Peter, we see this exhorting, and teaching from the apostle Peter who as seen above quoted as saying "who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time", now tells us that such a status as being begotten again we live before a Holy God and therefore are to live pure lives:

1 Peter 1: NKJV
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because


“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”


Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Trust and obey. What we do truly do/our actions shows what or Who we trust in. It won't be perfect of course because we are not yet fully conformed to image of Christ (Romans 8:28-30).

Yet can we know we are a child of God? The apostle Paul sure thought so:

Romans 8: NKJV
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yet can we know we are a child of God? The apostle Paul sure thought so:
Sure and good, when understood properly.
1st John also written "so the ekklesia may know...." (when they are right with God alive in Jesus walking without sin in Him) ....

There are a lot of descriptions in God's Word of Ekklesia abiding in Jesus every day, in union with Him, echad with Him.

Those are truth, and accurate, and right and faithful.

Most people never realize this, never understand this, and never live in union with Jesus, even though it is spelled out in many details throughout Scripture.
oh,
they "think" and they believe they are right with God , even doing Him favors !
(even while they kill the true believers!!!) .....

So, the unbelievers believe and think they have assurance of life in Jesus, even though they are condemned they don't know it
but they believe (or say they believe) they are true believers and followers of Jesus .......

The warnings are many in Scripture.... for a good purpose. God's Purpose in Jesus.
 
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Tree of Life

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Exactly as John Calvin (and the Calvinist Westminster Confession of Faith) say.

WCF 8.8 -
8. To all those for whom Christ hath purchased redemption, he doth certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same;p making intercession for them,q and revealing unto them, in and by the Word, the mysteries of salvation;r effectually persuading them by his Spirit to believe and obey, and governing their hearts by his Word and Spirit;s overcoming all their enemies by his almighty power and wisdom, in such manner, and ways, as are most consonant to his wonderful and unsearchable dispensation.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I chose the first option, because I believe in universal atonement. Christ died for all, because it is God's will to save all, and God intends to save all.

That doesn't mean all will be saved, however.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Oldmantook

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Could you link to the context of his quote? I ask because I seriously doubt Morgan would deny calling God eternal as an error.
I believe his book I cited is still available for free online so you can determine for yourself the context of the quote. In terms of God as "eternal," my understanding is that Scripture does not refer to God as eternal in the sense of never-ending but rather a God of the age(s). For example in Rom 16:25-26:
25 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that has been kept secret for long ages (aiōniois | αἰωνίοις | dat pl masc) past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg masc) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;....
In these two verse we see a comparison between "the mystery" which is aioniois and secret but now made known, and God who is also aioniou. In v.25, if aioniois means "eternal" how can it now be manifested or revealed? The mystery is not a secret forever, thus aioniois is correctly translated as "long ages." When we look at v.26 we see the same word as it applies to God. In this verse, aioniou is translated as "eternal." How can that be as the same word is translated as "long age" in the previous verse? This word cannot take on totally opposite meanings in these two verses. Moreover in v.27 we see that the word used a third time: to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. (aiōnas | αἰῶνας | acc pl masc) Amen. The word aionas in this verse is translated as "forever." If we are supposed to apply a consistent hermeneutic when interpreting this passage how can we translate this one word consistently across all three verses? One good English Bible regarding the translation of this word is Young's Literal Translation which translates this passage as:
25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,
26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him [be] glory to the ages. Amen.
I think this passage exemplifies what G. Morgan Campbell cautions against in our use of the word eternal as it applies to eternal life and eternal God.
 
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Oldmantook

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That is one possibility but the context determines the meaning and not the root word solely.

Strong's G165 - aiōn

Strong’s Definitions
αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 165: αἰών
αἰών, (ῶνος, ὁ (as if Αιε — poetic for ἀεί — ὤν, so teaches Aristotle, de caelo 1, 11, 9, vol. i., p. 279{a} 27; (so Proclus book iv. in Plato, Timaeo, p. 241; and others); but more probable is the conjecture (cf. Etym. Magn. 41, 11) that αἰών is so connected with ἄημι to breathe, blow, as to denote properly that which causes life, vital force; cf. Harless on Ephesians 2:2). (But αἰών ( = αἰϝών) is now generally connected with αἰεί, ἀεί, Sanskrit evas (aivas), Latinaevum, Goth. aivs, German ewig, English aye, ever; cf. Curtius, § 585; Fick, Part i., p. 27; Vanicek, p. 79; Benfey, Wurzellex, i., p. 7f; Schleicher, Compend. edition 2, p. 400; Pott, Etymologicum Forsch., edition 2, 2:2, p. 442; Ebeling, Lex. Homer under the word; Liddell and Scott, under the word ἀεί; Cremer, edd, 2, 3,4 (although in edition 1 he agreed with Prof. Grimm); Pott and Fick, however, connect it with Sanskrit ayus rather than evas, although both these forms are derived from i to go (see Pott, Sehleicher, Fick, Vanicek, as above).) In Greek authors:
1. age (Latinaevum, which is αἰών with the Aeolic digamma), a human lifetime (in Homer, Herodotus, Pindar, Tragic poets), life itself (Homer Iliad 5, 685 με καί λίποι αἰών etc.).
2. an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity, (Plato, Tim., p. 37 d. 38 a.; Tim. Locr., p. 97 d. (quoted below); Plutarch, others). With this signification the Hebrew and rabbinical idea of the word עולָם (of which in the Sept. αἰών is the equivalent) combines in the Biblical and ecclesiastical writings Hence, in the N. T. used:
1. a. universally: in the phrases εἰς τόν αἰῶνα, לְעולָם (Genesis 6:3), forever, John 6:51, 58; John 14:16; Hebrews 5:6; Hebrews 6:20, etc.; and strengthened εἰς τόν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, Hebrews 1:8 (from Psalm 44:7(Ps. 45:7) Alexandrian LXX, cf. Winer's Grammar, § 36, 22 (Tobit 6:18; Psalm 82:18 (Ps. 83:18), etc.); εἰς αἰῶνα, Jude 1:13; εἰς ἡμέραν αἰῶνος unto the day which is eternity (genitive of apposition), 2 Peter 3:18 (cf. Sir. 18:10 (9)); with a negation: never, John 4:14 (Lachmann in brackets); John 8:51; 10:28; 11:26; 13:8; 1 Corinthians 8:13; or not for ever, not always, John 8:35; εἰς τούς αἰῶνας, unto the ages, i. e., as long as time shall be (the plural denotes the individual ages whose sum is eternity): (Luke 1:33); Romans 1:25; Romans 9:5; Romans 11:36; (Romans 16:27 R G Tr WH); 2 Corinthians 11:31; Hebrews 13:8; εἰς πάντας τούς αἰῶνας, Jude 1:25; εἰςτούς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων (in which expression the endless future is divided up into various periods, the shorter of which are comprehended in the longer (cf. Winers Grammar, § 36, 2; among the various phrases to express duration composed of this word with preposition or adjuncts (which to the number of more than fifteen are to be found in the Sept., cf. Vaughan on Romans 1:25), this combination of the double plural seems to be peculiar to the N. T.)): (Romans 16:27 L T); Galatians 1:5; (Philippians 4:20); 1 Timothy 1:17; (2 Timothy 4:18; 1 Peter 4:11); Revelation 1:6, 18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 19:3; Revelation 20:10; Revelation 22:5; εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων, Revelation 14:11; ὁ αἰών τῶν αἰώνων the (whole) age embracing the (shorter) ages, Ephesians 3:21 (cf. Meyer (or Ellicott) at the passage); ἀπό τῶν αἰώνωνfrom the ages down, from eternity, Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:9; πρό τῶν αἰώνων before time was, before the foundation of the world, 1 Corinthians 2:7; πρόθεσις τῶν αἰώνων eternal purpose, Ephesians 3:11.
b. in hyperbolic and popular usage: ἀπό τοῦ αἰῶνος (מֵעולָםGenesis 6:4, cf. Deuteronomy 32:7) from the most ancient time down (within the memory of man), from of old, Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; Acts 15:18(Tobit 4:12 οἱ πατέρες ἡμῶν ἀπό τοῦ αἰῶνος; οἱ ἀπʹ αἰῶνος Ῥωμαῖοι, Dion Cass. 63, 20, 2 cf. 5; Longinus, 34 τούς ἀπʹ αἰῶνος ῥήτορας); also ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος, John 9:32 (1 Esdr. 2:19, 22 (23); Diodorus 4:83 of the temple of Venus τήν, ἐξ αἰῶνος ἀρχήν λαβόν, 17, 1 τούς ἐξ αἰῶνος βασιλεῖς(excerpt. de legat, xl.), p. 632 τήν ἐξ αἰῶνος παραδεδομένην ἐλευθερίαν).


Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

  2. the worlds, universe

  3. period of time, age


As you can see above translating from the original languages is not so simple. The context and attributes involved in the passage is critical to the meaning. Just as inflection changes meaning in a lot of Asian languages.

If we follow your model, we would end up with a translation where God is "age enduring" and eternal or everlasting life would have a temporal limit.

Again not as easy as applying one definition of many from the root word.

Therefore we see aiōnios describes more as an adjective should.

Strong's G166 - aiōnios

Strong's Info
Strong’s Definitions
αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

KJV Translation Count — Total: 71x
The KJV translates Strong's G166 in the following manner: eternal (42x), everlasting (25x), the world began (with G5550) (2x), since the world began (with G5550) (1x), for ever (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

  2. without beginning

  3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 166: αἰώνιος
αἰώνιος,, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. (see below); Diodorus 1:1; (cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23))) αἰώνιος, αἰώνια, αἰώνιον (αἰών);
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: Θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.
2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρό χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philcmon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9(the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2(also,dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdras (Fritzsche, 5 Esdr.) 4 Esdras 2:11 [2 Esdras 2:11]); similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tobit 3:6, cf. Ecclesiastes 12:5); σωτηρία, Hebrews 5:9; (so Mark 16 (WH) in the (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion'). Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Matthew 25:46; κρίμα, Hebrews 6:2; κρίσις, Mark 3:29 (Rec. (but L T WH Tr text ἁμαρτήματος; in Acta Thom. § 47, p. 227 Tdf., ἔσται σοι τοῦτο εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καί λύτρον αἰωνίων παραπτωμάτων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λύτρον, αἰώνιον (cf. Hebrews 9:12))); ὄλεθρος (Lachmann text ὀλέθριος, 2 Thessalonians 1:9(4 Macc. 10:15); πῦρ, Matthew 25:41 (4 Macc. 12:12 αἰωνίῳ πυρί καί βασάνοις, αἱ εἰς ὅλον τόν αἰῶνα οὐκ ἀρνήσουσί σε). (Of the examples of αἰώνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than ἀΐδιος, which see, of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nora. § 2; de caritate § 17; κόλασις αἰώνιος fragment in Mang. 2:667 at the end (Richter 6:229 middle); cf. de praem, et poen. § 12. Other examples are de alleg, leg. iii., § 70; de poster. Caini § 35; quod deus immut. § 30; quis rer. div. her. § 58; de congressu quaer, erud. § 19; de secular sec 38; de somn. ii. § 43; de Josepho § 24; quod omn. prob. book § 4, § 18; de ebrietate § 32; de Abrah. § 10; ζωή αἰώνιος: de secular § 15; Θεός (ὁ) αἰώνιος: de plantat. § 2, § 18 (twice), § 20 (twice);de mundo § 2. from Josephus: Antiquities 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, I; κλέος αἰών Antiquities 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5, μνήμη αἱ.: Antiquities 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οἶκον μέν αἰώνιον ἔχεις (of God), Antiquities 8, 4, 2; ἐφυλάχθη ὁ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4. SYNONYMS: ἀΐδιος, αἰώνιος: ἀΐδιος covers the complete philosophic idea — without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. αἰώνιος (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχής continuous, unintermitted, διατελής perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αἰών); αἰώνιος accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things, see the N. T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. Θεόν δέ τόν μέν αἰώνιον νόος ὄρη μόνοςetc.; Plato, Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum at the passage); 38 b. c.; legg. x., p. 904 a. ἀνώλεθρον δέ ὄν γενόμενον, ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον. Cf. also Plato's διαιώνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt, chapter 45.

Not even one instance of "age enduring."

As shown above the abundance of NT scholarship does not support this position.
It appears that the basic premise of your argument is that context helps to determine the meaning of a word to which I agree. However, in the particular case of the noun aion and its various adjectival forms, we are not just talking about variations or shades of meaning determined by context but rather a complete opposite of meaning. How can an adjective be completely opposite in meaning of the noun which it modifies? If you can provide scriptural examples using these words, that would be helpful to the discussion.
 
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Tree of Life

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I chose the first option, because I believe in universal atonement. Christ died for all, because it is God's will to save all, and God intends to save all.

That doesn't mean all will be saved, however.

-CryptoLutheran

Why cannot God accomplish what he intends?
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's not about what God can or can't do.

The only reason anyone will be damned is because they chose it.

Salvation is monergistic: God's work alone.
Damnation is also monergistic: Man's work alone.

This is the Crux Theologorum at work.
http://www.stpaulslutheranchurch.net/cruxtheologorum.html

-CryptoLutheran
If salvation is monergistic: all God’s work, which it is, then how is it you say Christ bore the sin debt for all, including those in hell? Are you not contradicting yourself?
 
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MDC

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God made it possible for all who would believe to be saved.

I.e. - The sacrifice made was sufficient for every man woman and child on earth to be justified before God through faith - bar none.

He died for every man, woman, and child on earth so that who so ever believes will be saved by so doing.

If you want to call that "Arminianism" - so be it.

Whether a fallen man, woman or child will, or indeed can, in and of themselves, believe and be justified is another question entirely. The answer to that question is "NO" according to the scriptures.

The vehicle for making them able and willing to believe is drawing and enabling some whom the Father has chosen to do so for (i.e - the elect of God).

So called "limited atonement" is not true according to the scriptures. You and I are living proof of that.

God "secured" salvation for no one including His elect.

You and I were as lost a Satan before believing on Christ. All of the elect were enemies of God and children of wrath even as the rest until such time that God acted on them in order that they might believe and be translated into the Kingdom of God.

Whatever your definition of "atonement" is - it does not teach that it is only for the elect.

Again - every Calvinist (including John Calvin himself) believes that salvation is only "potential" up until saving faith is exercised.

Teaching the logically and scripturally unwarranted doctrine of limited atonement only muddies the waters of the gospel.

God died for all - and it truly grieves Him that all will not believe and be saved.

While the concept of His permissive vs. His ultimate will must remain a mystery this side of the veil - the scriptures do indeed teach His willingness that all would believe and be saved and that only the elect will be enabled to do so.

Exactly as John Calvin (and the Calvinist Westminster Confession of Faith) say.

Why so called "5 point" Calvinists can't leave it at that and feel that they need to go beyond what the scriptures clearly teach - is a mystery to me.

Calvin must be rolling over in his grave.
No I call you an Amyraldian. And the Westminster Confession of faith certainly doesn’t agree with you. You actually muddy the waters with this inconsistency and compromise
 
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ViaCrucis

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If salvation is monergistic: all God’s work, which it is, then how is it you say Christ bore the sin debt for all, including those in hell? Are you not contradicting yourself?

There is an element of paradox involved, but the paradox is biblical.

Scripture asserts that Christ died for everyone.
Scripture asserts that it is God's will that all be saved.
Scripture asserts that salvation is God's work alone apart from ourselves.
Scripture asserts that damnation is our fault alone.

If there is a contradiction, then the contradiction is in Scripture. Lutheranism is okay with this, because if Scripture says two seemingly contradictory things then our response to this isn't to reason them away, but to confess the truth of Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JIMINZ

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You will not find biblical support of that claim.



Then, following that logic, there is no hope for the Gentiles (non-Jews), the majority of the world.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Colossians 3:11-12 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. (12) Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

Clearly it is not just Israel (or the Jews)



As demonstrated, the elect are those who are in Christ, Jew and Gentile.

.
I'm sorry, but you are misunderstanding what I said.

Below you will find the Biblical support, which you say doesn't exist.

The Elect are those Jews of that time, not all of them, not the Nation of Israel, but the Elect, a chosen remnant of Jews, out of the Nation.

The Elect are not the Gentile believers of any time, that would be Calvinism.

Here are a few verses for you.

Rom 9:27-29
27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28) For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29) And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Isa 10:22
For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Rom 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

In 70ad, the Temple was destroyed just as Jesus said it would be, the Jewish Nation was dispersed throughout the world.

But God had reserved a Remnant out of the Jewish Nation for Himself, those being, the Believing Jews, (Christian Jews).
 
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mark kennedy

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I believe his book I cited is still available for free online so you can determine for yourself the context of the quote. In terms of God as "eternal," my understanding is that Scripture does not refer to God as eternal in the sense of never-ending but rather a God of the age(s). For example in Rom 16:25-26:
25 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that has been kept secret for long ages (aiōniois | αἰωνίοις | dat pl masc) past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg masc) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;....
In these two verse we see a comparison between "the mystery" which is aioniois and secret but now made known, and God who is also aioniou. In v.25, if aioniois means "eternal" how can it now be manifested or revealed? The mystery is not a secret forever, thus aioniois is correctly translated as "long ages." When we look at v.26 we see the same word as it applies to God. In this verse, aioniou is translated as "eternal." How can that be as the same word is translated as "long age" in the previous verse? This word cannot take on totally opposite meanings in these two verses. Moreover in v.27 we see that the word used a third time: to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. (aiōnas | αἰῶνας | acc pl masc) Amen. The word aionas in this verse is translated as "forever." If we are supposed to apply a consistent hermeneutic when interpreting this passage how can we translate this one word consistently across all three verses? One good English Bible regarding the translation of this word is Young's Literal Translation which translates this passage as:
25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,
26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him [be] glory to the ages. Amen.
I think this passage exemplifies what G. Morgan Campbell cautions against in our use of the word eternal as it applies to eternal life and eternal God.
Well I looked it up in various dictionaries, lexicons and did some cross referencing using a Concordance.

Eternal: (G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios),"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
Now that does suggest that the meaning of 'ages' isn't endless, but wait there is more.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Phm 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1Ti 6:16, and of His glory, 1Pet 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2Pet 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' John 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Mat 25:46; Titus 1:2. (Vine's Dictionary, quote courtesy of Blue Letter Bible)
It's also used to speak of an eternal judgment, that comes to the children of perdition at final judgment:

"Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mar 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Hbr 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Mat 18:8; 25:41; Jud 1:7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mar 9:43. "The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Th 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 232, 233.]
Yes the word can and does mean eternal, even though various forms of it can simply mean the ages. When you look at how aionios is used, (G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios), the definition your working from applies only to certain minority texts. It's used to speak of, 'eternal G166 life' (Titus 3:7). That Philemon should receive his brother Onesimus back, ‘for ever’ G166, (Philemon 1:15). That Christ is the, ‘author of eternal G166 salvation’. Used to speak of an eternal G166 inheritance. (Heb. 9:15) and the ‘eternal glory of Christ Jesus (1 Peter 5:10).

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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fhansen

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The very definition above of disbelief in the promises of God.
Nah, it's just the honest truth-THE WAY THINGS ARE. Even Paul acknowledged in Phil 3 that he needed to strive to attain eternal life.
Remember the ones crying "lord, lord" Christ says "I never knew you." Notice those who are crying this out and enumerating their works. Shows they were trusting in their work and not the finished works of Christ.
Sure, but in the end they were just people who thought they were saved. And certainly a lack of works/fruits, at least, should still give one pause in thinking they're saved.
However, even the leader among the apostles opines on this matter in affirmative that the promises of God are secure:


1 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Maybe you could point me to the passages where the loss of status is opined upon. I do know apostasy is mentioned in Hebrews, however that alone shows a complete disbelief in God's promises as sure and one becomes an enemy to the Gospel. We could discuss the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of the soils which point this out.
Heb 6:4:
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”

As well as Romans 7, that speaks of branches grafted in that can be cut back off. If someone wants to persist in believing novel theories or interpretations that’s up to them. But the Church of God has consistently taught the possibility of believers losing salvation since day one, the church in the east and in the west both.

Salvation is not based on how strongly one believes they're saved-as if it’s just up to some self-assessed level of trust, etc. It's simply about coming to believe in Jesus Christ and the One who sent Him, then acting on that faith as a result, following Christ, doing what he asks, obeying Him, working out our salvation with He who works in us. In the end He judges us based on what we did with everything we were given, not merely on faith. The Parable of the Talents sheds much light here.
Trust and obey. What we do truly do/our actions shows what or Who we trust in. It won't be perfect of course because we are not yet fully conformed to image of Christ (Romans 8:28-30).

Yet can we know we are a child of God? The apostle Paul sure thought so:

Romans 8: NKJV
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
This is exhortation, not certain prophecy, as if everyone who heard that letter was necessarily saved. Sheez! Believe what you want, interpret some passages woodenly, disregard others. It’s just all more proof of the fallacy of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura since Scripture can easily enough be used to support opposing understandings here.
 
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redleghunter

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I believe his book I cited is still available for free online so you can determine for yourself the context of the quote.
I asked because we really don't know what he was referring to. He could have been referring to land promises to Israel which in the context would mean something. With no context, the quote is not very useful.

In terms of God as "eternal," my understanding is that Scripture does not refer to God as eternal in the sense of never-ending but rather a God of the age(s). For example in Rom 16:25-26:
25 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that has been kept secret for long ages (aiōniois | αἰωνίοις | dat pl masc) past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg masc) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;....

Let's look at a literal word for word translation conducted by committee and not one person:

NASB: Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, (Romans 16:25)

Here's the difference when you look at the lexicon. "Long ages past" has two lexicon entries for verse 25. The first is chronos and the second is aiōnios. The first puts a 'time space' perspective on the second. The 'secret' kept? One must ask to whom it was kept from? God? Of course not. Mankind? Yes and mankind is limited to the created time space of Genesis 1:1

1. The KJV translates Strong's G5550 Chronos in the following manner: time (33x), season (4x), while (2x), space (2x), oftentimes (with G4183) (1x), not translated (5x), miscellaneous (4x).

Outline of Biblical Usage: time either long or short

Strong’s Definitions
χρόνος chrónos, khron'-os; of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:—+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
χρόνος, χρόνου, ὁ, from Homer down, the Sept. for יום, עֵת, etc. time: Hebrews 11:32; Revelation 10:6; ὁ χρόνος τοῦ φαινομένου ἀστέρος, the time since the star began to shine (cf. φαίνω, 2 a.), Matthew 2:7; (ὁ χρόνος τοῦ τεκεῖν αὐτήν (Genesis 25:24), Luke 1:57 (Buttmann, 267 (230); cf. Winer's Grammar, § 44, 4 a.)); τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, Acts 7:17; τῆς παροικίας, 1 Peter 1:17; χρονοι ἀποκαταστάσεως, Acts 3:21; οἱ χρονοι τῆς ἀγνοίας, Acts 17:30; χρόνου διαγενομένου, Acts 27:9; πόσος χρόνος ἐστιν, ὡς τοῦτο γέγονεν, Mark 9:21; ὁ παρεληλυθώς χρόνος, 1 Peter 4:3 (where Rec. adds τοῦ βίου); τεσσαρακονταετής, Acts 7:23; Acts 13:18; στιγμή χρόνου, Luke 4:5; πλήρωμα τοῦ χρόνου, Galatians 4:4; ποιεῖν ((which see, II. d.) to spend) χρόνον,

2. The KJV translates Strong's G166 aiōnios in the following manner: eternal (42x), everlasting (25x), the world began (with G5550) (2x), since the world began (with G5550) (1x), for ever (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage:
  1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
  2. without beginning

  3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
Strong’s Definitions
αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
αἰώνιος,, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. (see below); Diodorus 1:1; (cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23))) αἰώνιος, αἰώνια, αἰώνιον (αἰών);
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: Θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.
2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρό χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philcmon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16;


In these two verse we see a comparison between "the mystery" which is aioniois and secret but now made known, and God who is also aioniou. In v.25, if aioniois means "eternal" how can it now be manifested or revealed? The mystery is not a secret forever, thus aioniois is correctly translated as "long ages."
As explained above, chronos and aiōnios are linked to get us "long ages."

When we look at v.26 we see the same word as it applies to God. In this verse, aioniou is translated as "eternal." How can that be as the same word is translated as "long age" in the previous verse? This word cannot take on totally opposite meanings in these two verses.

This is basic language in any language, culture or time. Context matters. For the Hebrews a tent covering means just that but also used to explain how God stretched out the heavens. Context.

NASB: but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; (Romans 16:26)

Looks like aiōnios again without chronos. The good reason the translators used eternal here is because it refers to God who is timeless. Who is not bound by His own creation. To stick in the wooden YLT of 'age enduring' would be senseless as an age is defined by time. Unless one wants to define 'age enduring' as someone/something outside of the limits of time. In our language that would be eternal or everlasting. Therefore, the best you can get out of Young's use of 'age enduring' with regards to God, His attributes and His plan is to say 'timeless.' Because we know God is not a created being, that He is the uncreated creator and He indeed in Genesis 1:1 creates time itself; that 'age-enduring' implies 'age' which is based on time and God and His attributes are not subject to time.

Moreover in v.27 we see that the word used a third time: to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. (aiōnas | αἰῶνας | acc pl masc) Amen. The word aionas in this verse is translated as "forever." If we are supposed to apply a consistent hermeneutic when interpreting this passage how can we translate this one word consistently across all three verses?
I think the mistake is to think we can apply hermeneutics to root words only. Meaning not every word means the same thing for us and surely not for the ancients. If we did so language would be unintelligible. It would not be language.

Hermeneutics involves more than handling the text and translation:

Applying sound principles of hermeneutics requires answers to a variety of questions:

  • Who was the writer?
  • To whom were they writing?
  • Is the choice of words, wording, or word order significant in this particular passage?
  • What is the cultural, historical context?
  • What was the author's original intended meaning?
  • How did the author's contemporaries understand him?
  • Why did he say it that way?
As you can see where I used 'context' covers all of the above.

One good English Bible regarding the translation of this word is Young's Literal Translation which translates this passage as:
25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,
26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him [be] glory to the ages. Amen.
I think this passage exemplifies what G. Morgan Campbell cautions against in our use of the word eternal as it applies to eternal life and eternal God.

Is God not eternal? Meaning timeless, outside of time? Is not an 'age' a measurement of time?

Vines is more up to date with scholarship than the older Thayer and Strongs.

Strong's Number: g166

Eternal:

"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; 2Ti 1:9; Tts 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2Cr 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Phm 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1Ti 6:16, and of His glory, 1Pe 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hbr 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Hbr 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Hbr 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2Pe 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luk 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, Jhn 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' Jhn 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2Cr 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1Cr 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Mat 25:46; Tts 1:2.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mar 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Hbr 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Mat 18:8; 25:41; Jud 1:7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mar 9:43. "The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Th 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 232, 233.]
 
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redleghunter

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It appears that the basic premise of your argument is that context helps to determine the meaning of a word to which I agree. However, in the particular case of the noun aion and its various adjectival forms, we are not just talking about variations or shades of meaning determined by context but rather a complete opposite of meaning. How can an adjective be completely opposite in meaning of the noun which it modifies? If you can provide scriptural examples using these words, that would be helpful to the discussion.
I don't see any opposite meanings. We use adjectives to rightly and more accurately describe what we are trying to communicate. The Hebrews knew YHWH had no boundaries and is not contained or constrained by time, space and matter.
 
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mark kennedy

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Nah, it's just the honest truth-THE WAY THINGS ARE. Even Paul acknowledged in Phil 3 that he needed to strive to attain eternal life.

No one is disagreeing with that, he went to some lengths to emphasis that.

Sure, but in the end they were just people who thought they were saved. And certainly a lack of works/fruits, at least, should still give one pause in thinking they're saved.

Jesus explains it this way, the word of God is like seed. This was a mystery hidden throughout redemptive history, revealed only by Christ who told them, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you" (Luke 8:10). A farmer is planting a crop, he takes the seed along a road were some of it falls on the ground, it's trampled and birds eat it. These people never believed it, their hearts were hard. There's rocky soil were initially it springs up but eventually dies, they initially receive it with joy but it never takes root. Then another soil where the cares of this life and deceitfulness of riches chocks out the word and they never bear fruit. Up until now no one had had saving faith, the condition of their heart prevented it. Finally the soil that this farmer had actually cleared and plowed took root and bore much fruit. The key here is the Word of God, the condition of the heart and the care of the farmer who is God.

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.” (Heb 6:4-5)
That says enlightened, not saved, it says tasted the powers of the age to come but fell away from the faith. There is no suggestion that they were losing salvation but rather proving they never had it in the first place. They had the promise, the insight and the power to become children of God but they never had saving faith.

As well as Romans 7, that speaks of branches grafted in that can be cut back off. If someone wants to persist in believing novel theories or interpretations that’s up to them. But the Church of God has consistently taught the possibility of believers losing salvation since day one, the church in the east and in the west both.

Romans 7 is about how the Law brought sin out, and while it testified to the righteousness that is by faith it never could provide it because it was weakened through the flesh. This is the passage your thinking about:

That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Rom. 11:20-22)
The natural branches were broken off because of unbelief. The branches grafted in are the Gentiles and Paul is saying if God rejected Israel because of unbelief he will cast you out on the same basis. That's grace through faith alone, not because they didn't pray enough, go to church enough, do enough good works but never believed. Of course works of righteousness follow, but they happen under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who prepares the heart for the word of God and empowers the believer to bear fruit.

Salvation is not based on how strongly one believes they're saved-as if it’s just up to some self-assessed level of trust, etc. It's simply about coming to believe in Jesus Christ and the One who sent Him, then acting on that faith as a result, following Christ, doing what he asks, obeying Him, working out our salvation with He who works in us. In the end He judges us based on what we did with everything we were given, not merely on faith. The Parable of the Talents sheds much light here.

Just as with the sheep and goats being separated, the foolish virgins the parable of the talents are about professing Christians. They never knew Christ which is why they did not love those who he loved, they didn't take enough oil to last beyond their sleep, which is a euphemism for death. The wicked servant who did nothing, was judged for doing exactly that, nothing. You can't have the word of God taking root in your heart, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us and bestows gifts of grace for the building up of the body of Christ and do nothing. You can be 'enlightened' and still not believe, your can taste the power of the age to come and not have saving faith, you can have a talent from the master and neglect so great a salvation, but you cannot have saving faith and lose it. There is no Scriptural basis for that, Old or New Testament.

This is exhortation, not certain prophecy, as if everyone who heard that letter was necessarily saved. Sheez! Believe what you want, interpret some passages woodenly, disregard others. It’s just all more proof of the fallacy of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura since Scripture can easily be used to support opposing understandings here.

Clearly the seed is the Word of God, Christ is even described as the Incarnate Word of God, you can be enlightened as to the gospel (see the light so to speak) and never have saving faith.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
That's not a condition that your salvation can be revoked but a guarantee that you are going to be redeemed on the last day. You hear the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit who alone can tell you that you are a child of the Living God:

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” (Rom. 8:15)
Not slaves again to fear, but children of the Living God. When you are born again of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23), receive the Holy Spirit of promise who remains with us forever:

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:15-18)
To 'be with you forever', if you 'love me and keep my commands'. So what is this command, that makes us disciples?

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:34-35)
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit are gifts of grace through faith. Once you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and in Christ you are no more likely to be cast out of Christ then Christ is likely to be cast out of the Trinity.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
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I don't see any opposite meanings. We use adjectives to rightly and more accurately describe what we are trying to communicate. The Hebrews knew YHWH had no boundaries and is not contained or constrained by time, space and matter.
Yea, that name made known to Moses from the burning bush, 'I Am That I Am', is in a perfect tense. The Jews sometimes interpret that as, 'the Eternal One'. In Revelations he is described as 'was, is and is to come, the Almighty'. While he transcends time and space his history and future glory is eternal, without beginning or end, which is exactly the meaning intended for 'aiōnios', except in a few minority texts. A text without a context is a pretext.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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