My favorite argument for the existence of God

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omega2xx

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Once again you argue against a strawman of evolution, not evolution itself.

One of your tag lines speaks of evidence. Yet to date you have not provided any evidence to support your faith in Darwin and his evangelists.

You say I don't understand evolution but you haven't said what AI don't understand. You say I don't understand genetics, but you have not shown how genetics can be a mechanism for a change of species. When you tell me "mutations" I will laugh in your face. Because that answer only points to the fact that you also do not understand mutations/ Now prove me wrong.

It is you with the strawman, not me.
 
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omega2xx

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How can I do that if you refuse to tell me what is part of the polar bear "kind"? Is the giant panda in the polar bear kind? You will not tell me. Is the red panda in the polar bear kind? You will not tell me. Is the walrus or hippo? You will not tell me. How can I demonstrate a "kind" evolving if you cannot tell me what you mean when you use the word "kind"?[QUOTE/]

A kind is a species that can mate and produce offspring.

You don't even know how many hairs I have on my head. The fact that you and I don't know everything does not prove I know nothing.
I have not said or even suggested you don' know anything.

wrong.

I go by the evidence.

Wonderful. Produce your evidence and we can continue.
 
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doubtingmerle

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omega2xx

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I see you did not address my question. Let me try again. There is evidence that the polar bear and brown bear have a common ancestor, even though they are considered different species. Do you or do you not think they are the same kind?

I have given you my definition of kind. If they can mate and produce offspring, they are the same kind, just a different variety. It is similar to 2 dogs of a different variety mating. They will still produce a dog, just not the same variety. It will result in a new varity, not a new species.

[QUOTEYou asked me to produce my evidence. Here it is:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent[/QUOTE]

I have quit reading evo links because the NEVER provide any evidence or what they say. Now here is a perfect chance to prove me wrong. Cut and paste what ye offer and post it.

I predict you will not do that because when you are forced to actually evaluate what is said, you find it is all rhetoric and the usual unscientific evo talking points.
 
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Jimmy D

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It is amusing that when someone finds out I reject evolution it always because I don't understand it

To be fair, we get that from the ignorance you display on the topic.

I reject it because I do understand it.

You do a good job of disguising your understanding.

I was educated in the public school system, high school and college and they have a monopoly on what teach and it is always that evolution is based on science.

I wonder why?

always challenge evos to present the evidence for natural selection.

LOL, what?

Even Creationists accept natural selection, you're priceless!


Thus, “survival of the fittest”3 or “survival of the fittest to reproduce” is the standard definition of the process termed natural selection, and it finds no conflict with the text of Scripture.4 Ever since the fall (Genesis 3), living things have been dying and killing each other, and the self-evident fact of natural selection is perfectly consistent with the Bible. Natural selection has happened, and it continues to happen every day. In fact, the concept of natural selection was first articulated, not by an evolutionist, but by a creationist nearly a quarter century before Darwin published his most significant work.5

Furthermore, as biblical creationists, we must affirm that the term natural has been used from the earliest days of formal scientific inquiry to describe God’s upholding of the universe through the laws of nature. For the Christian, nature is simply shorthand for God’s providential operation of the creatures and creation we see around us.6 In our example above, the culling of the sickly gazelle removes its unique genetic contribution from the overall genetic pool of the gazelle population, potentially preventing propagation of its genetic mutations from spreading.

In addition, repetition of this predation cycle over time could alter the ratios of genetic varieties in the gazelle species, potentially leading to the formation of a new species. Thus, natural selection is an observable fact that can participate in the process of variation and speciation within the original kinds of animals that God created.

Understanding Natural Selection


None have to date, why don't you show me how much you know and provide the evidence for it.

You are a liar, don't the 10 commandments mean anything to you?

Here's just one example of evidence natural selection posted for you, there are many others but what's the point in looking? You'll just deny it again.
 
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Jimmy D

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The basic evidence against evolution is "after their kind." That is proved thousands of times every day in animals, birds, fish and man,, It can't be falsified and it refutes evolution.

Can't you remember last time you came out with this rubbish?

..............................

Loudmouth was one of the many people to try and correct you....

"after their kind", supports evolution.
It is the opposite that would refute evolution.

Mammals produce more mammals.
Primates produce more primates.
Cats produce more cats.

Mammals don't produce reptiles.
Cats don't produce dogs.

Every organism stays within the "bloodline" of its ancestry.


Wherein I catch a professional YEC in a lie

...........................................

Seriously mate, you're embarassing yourself with this stuff.

Proverbs 12:15 “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice"
 
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omega2xx

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To be fair, we get that from the ignorance you display on the topic.[QUOTE/]

Your ignorance comes from the FACT you can't prove anything in the TOE.

You do a good job of disguising your understanding.
I wonder why?[QUOTE/]

Talk is cheap. Tell me something specific I don know about evolution.

Even Creationists accept natural selection, you're priceless! [QUOTE/]

Some do, most don't. This is not about who accepts it, it about the evidence to support it.

Thus, “survival of the fittest”3 or “survival of the fittest to reproduce” is the standard definition of the process termed natural selection, and it finds no conflict with the text of Scripture.4 Ever since the fall (Genesis 3), living things have been dying and killing each other, and the self-evident fact of natural selection is perfectly consistent with the Bible. Natural selection has happened, and it continues to happen every day. In fact, the concept of natural selection was first articulated, not by an evolutionist, but by a creationist nearly a quarter century before Darwin published his most significant work.5[quote/]

You don't even understand. your own rhetoric. Even if your statements is true, and death of a species is not evidence of it resulting in a new species. while it might contribute to the the species not becoming extinct, it will not contribute to a new species coming into existence. The rabbits with the stronger legs, and that is not natural selection, those rabbits will continue producing rabbits and it is not guaranteed they will have strong legs. You never give the HOW a new species comes out of natural selection.

Furthermore, as biblical creationists, we must affirm that the term natural has been used from the earliest days of formal scientific inquiry to describe God’s upholding of the universe through the laws of nature. For the Christian, nature is simply shorthand for God’s providential operation of the creatures and creation we see around us.6 In our example above, the culling of the sickly gazelle removes its unique genetic contribution from the overall genetic pool of the gazelle population, potentially preventing propagation of its genetic mutations from spreading.[QUOTE/]

When the term came into use is irrelevant, "When" does not explain "how". And that must be done on proven scientific facts.

In addition, repetition of this predation cycle over time could alter the ratios of genetic varieties in the gazelle species, potentially leading to the formation of a new species.[QUOTE/]

That rhetoric comes right out of evo la la land. Where is your evidence?

Thus, natural selection is an observable fact that can participate in the process of variation and speciation within the original kinds of animals that God created.[QUOTE/]

It is not. No one has ever observed a species giving birth to a different species.. It is genetically impossible.

You are a liar, don't the 10 commandments mean anything to you?

Here's just one example of evidence natural selection posted for you, there are many others but what's the point in looking? You'll just deny it again.

You are not a liar, you are worse. You are ignorant of science and have been brainwashed into accepting the lie and you have no understanding of scientific evidence.

Without reading your link, I say it will not have any verifiable scientific evidence. Now here is a perfect opportunity for you to prove me wrong. All you have to do is take 5-10 minuets to cut and paste the evidence it provides. I predict you will not to that.

Since you like to post what some creationist say about natural selection, let's look at what a well know evolution says about it.


"No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection, no one has ever gotten near it.
When eve we look at the living biota...discontinuities are overwhelming frequent. The discontinuities are even, more striking in the fossil record. New species usually appear suddenly, NOT CONNECTED. with their ancestors by a series of intermediates---Ernst Mayr
 
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omega2xx

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Can't you remember last time you came out with this rubbish?

..............................

Loudmouth was one of the many people to try and correct you....

"after their kind", supports evolution.
It is the opposite that would refute evolution.

Mammals produce more mammals.
Primates produce more primates.
Cats produce more cats.

Mammals don't produce reptiles.
Cats don't produce dogs.

Every organism stays within the "bloodline" of its ancestry.


Wherein I catch a professional YEC in a lie

...........................................

Seriously mate, you're embarassing yourself with this stuff.

Proverbs 12:15 “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice"

What ignorance of science you display. If every organism stays within its blood line, it never become anything else. Was the the first life form a mammal or as primate? Which ever you guess, how did it become something other than what its blood line was?

You express a truth and then you deny it and you say I am embarassing myself. Your are amusing .
 
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bhsmte

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What ignorance of science you display. If every organism stays within its blood line, it never become anything else. Was the the first life form a mammal or as primate? Which ever you guess, how did it become something other than what its blood line was?

You express a truth and then you deny it and you say I am embarassing myself. Your are amusing .

Did you just claim someone else was ignorant of science?????????????????????????
 
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Jimmy D

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What ignorance of science you display. If every organism stays within its blood line, it never become anything else. Was the the first life form a mammal or as primate? Which ever you guess, how did it become something other than what its blood line was?

You express a truth and then you deny it and you say I am embarassing myself. Your are amusing .

This whole “first primate” thing has been explained repeatedly to you by multiple posters. Maybe science just isn’t for you if you can’t grasp such simple concepts.

The fact that you are just repeating exactly the same points that you have been corrected on confirms that you are just trolling.

It’s a shame that grown men need to resort to such things but each to their own I guess.
 
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Kylie

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The basic evidence against evolution is "after their kind." That is proved thousands of times every day in animals, birds, fish and man,, It can't be falsified and it refutes evolution.

Only because you don't understand evolution.
 
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Kylie

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One of your tag lines speaks of evidence. Yet to date you have not provided any evidence to support your faith in Darwin and his evangelists.

You say I don't understand evolution but you haven't said what AI don't understand. You say I don't understand genetics, but you have not shown how genetics can be a mechanism for a change of species. When you tell me "mutations" I will laugh in your face. Because that answer only points to the fact that you also do not understand mutations/ Now prove me wrong.

It is you with the strawman, not me.

You do not understand how inherited traits vary from one generation to the next, you do not understand natural selection, you do not understand sexual selection, you do not understand selective pressures, you do not understand speciation, you do not understand nested hierarchies.
 
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Jimmy D

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What a mess your post was, try to learn to use the quote function properly.


Your ignorance comes from the FACT you can't prove anything in the TOE.

You've repeatedly demonstrated a failure to look at evidence, if you won't look at it or comment when it's presented to you why do you think anyone would bother, or care about whether you accept it or not. My only reason for responding to you is to highlight why your assertions are wrong for the benefit of any readers. Not that I can see anyone agreeing with you.


Talk is cheap. Tell me something specific I don know about evolution.

Already did, yet you just repeat your nonsense like some sort of broken robot.

Some do, most don't. This is not about who accepts it, it about the evidence to support it.

"Most don't"? Can you demonstrate this claim? I just posted creationist sources showing that they do accept natural selection. It's such a simple concept and common phenomena only an idiot could deny it occurs.

You mentioned bears before, how do you explain why polar bears are white and grizzly bears brown without natural selection?


You don't even understand. your own rhetoric. Even if your statements is true, and death of a species is not evidence of it resulting in a new species. while it might contribute to the the species not becoming extinct, it will not contribute to a new species coming into existence. The rabbits with the stronger legs, and that is not natural selection, those rabbits will continue producing rabbits and it is not guaranteed they will have strong legs. You never give the HOW a new species comes out of natural selection.

It's not my rhetoric, it's from a creationist article.

I didn't mention speciation so I don't know what you're prattling about here.

When the term came into use is irrelevant, "When" does not explain "how". And that must be done on proven scientific facts.

I agree, so I wonder why you commented on an irrelevance rather that this part...

In our example above, the culling of the sickly gazelle removes its unique genetic contribution from the overall genetic pool of the gazelle population, potentially preventing propagation of its genetic mutations from spreading.

Is that statement not true? If not why not?

(Please do not repeat your red herring about speciation, no one mentioned speciation).

That rhetoric comes right out of evo la la land. Where is your evidence?

LOL, it comes from creationist la la land. You do realize that the "Answersingenesis" apologists who wrote that will go to extraordinary lengths to deny common ancestry and promote the idea of biblical creationism? Even they have to acknowledge natural selection as a phenomena in nature even if they don't believe it leads to speciation beyond the "kind" boundaries.

It is not. No one has ever observed a species giving birth to a different species.. It is genetically impossible.

Derr, isn't that what everyone's been telling you for months? Even on this page?

I can't believe that you are so stupid that you can't understand that this is not what evolution posits.

Are you?

You are not a liar, you are worse. You are ignorant of science and have been brainwashed into accepting the lie and you have no understanding of scientific evidence.

Without reading your link, I say it will not have any verifiable scientific evidence. Now here is a perfect opportunity for you to prove me wrong. All you have to do is take 5-10 minuets to cut and paste the evidence it provides. I predict you will not to that.

There it is, wilfull ignorance and refusal to learn. You predict correctly though, I'm not going to waste my time, seeing as I already posted the pertinent information from the link that demonstrated that creationists accept natural selection.

LOL


Since you like to post what some creationist say about natural selection, let's look at what a well know evolution says about it.


"No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection, no one has ever gotten near it.
When eve we look at the living biota...discontinuities are overwhelming frequent. The discontinuities are even, more striking in the fossil record. New species usually appear suddenly, NOT CONNECTED. with their ancestors by a series of intermediates---Ernst Mayr

Where did he say that? Do you know?

I'm not going to say that you are lying, just lazy and foolish, posting crap from anywhere that you don't even bother to check.

How do I know this? Because you've got two quote mines by two different people mixed into one.

A sad indictment of your honesty, knowledge and character.

And you think anyone is going to be convinced by this drivel you post? Even the least enlightened creationist would be cringing.
 
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doubtingmerle

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I have given you my definition of kind.
Ok so the horse and the donkey are the same kind? Did the writers of the bible think they were the same kind?
 
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Aman777

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Too bad "kind" isn't a relevant biological reality.

It's called "willingly ignorant". 2Pe 3:5

There are only two "kinds". His kind is temporary and subject to death. Their kind is immortal and will never die. Will you continue to be ignorant of the difference? Or will you see that one is vastly different from the other? Amen?
 
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I have quit reading evo links because the NEVER provide any evidence or what they say. Now here is a perfect chance to prove me wrong. Cut and paste what ye offer and post it.

I predict you will not do that because when you are forced to actually evaluate what is said, you find it is all rhetoric and the usual unscientific evo talking points.

For instance:

As seen from the phylogeny in Figure 1, the predicted pattern of organisms at any given point in time can be described as "groups within groups", otherwise known as a nested hierarchy. The only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. Common descent is a genetic process in which the state of the present generation/individual is dependent only upon genetic changes that have occurred since the most recent ancestral population/individual. Therefore, gradual evolution from common ancestors must conform to the mathematics of Markov processes and Markov chains. Using Markovian mathematics, it can be rigorously proven that branching Markovian replicating systems produce nested hierarchies (Givnish and Sytsma 1997; Harris 1989; Norris 1997). For these reasons, biologists routinely use branching Markov chains to effectively model evolutionary processes, including complex genetic processes, the temporal distributions of surnames in populations (Galton and Watson 1874), and the behavior of pathogens in epidemics.

The nested hierarchical organization of species contrasts sharply with other possible biological patterns, such as the continuum of "the great chain of being" and the continuums predicted by Lamarck's theory of organic progression (Darwin 1872, pp. 552-553; Futuyma 1998, pp. 88-92). Mere similarity between organisms is not enough to support macroevolution; the nested classification pattern produced by a branching evolutionary process, such as common descent, is much more specific than simple similarity. Real world examples that cannot be objectively classified in nested hierarchies are the elementary particles (which are described by quantum chromodynamics), the elements (whose organization is described by quantum mechanics and illustrated by the periodic table), the planets in our Solar System, books in a library, or specially designed objects like buildings, furniture, cars, etc.

Source: 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1
I discuss this in detail in the thread Nested Hierarchy: Evidence for Evolution
 
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