What Was God’s Intention For The Atonement?

What did God intend at the cross?

  • Actually save all

    Votes: 4 9.3%
  • Make salvation possible for all

    Votes: 27 62.8%
  • Actually save some

    Votes: 12 27.9%

  • Total voters
    43

Ken Rank

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Perhaps brother @Ken Rank was hitting upon something Charles H. Spurgeon opined on in the 19th century:

I have truly not read much of Spurgeon but the spirit of what I was saying appears to be in line with at least the quote you shared. I hate the argument that ensues when folks come across any number of apparent contradictions in Scripture, and the division that becomes inevitable from those moments. Another example in addition to this free will/predestination schism is the law/faith-grace debate. Christianity has become so hyper-graced that the law is all but demeaned by many Christians who seem to all but forget that God was the author of the law. Beyond that, we seem to come to a place where we don't understand that the need for grace comes from the fact that we don't measure up to the law. And if there is no law, because we conclude we no longer need it, then that lack of standard means there is no need for grace anymore.

Do we really believe that because we live by faith that we no longer live by the law? That is the mindset of many Christians but Paul wrote in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." This was just another example (not a plea to keep the law). I want us all to understand that we are raised in a culture that gives us only two choices... conservative or liberal, black or white, choice or life, meat or vegan, rich or poor, and on and on and when we pick "one" we are taught to square off against the one who chooses the position we didn't. We do this same thing in Christianity.... when two opinions collide we pick one and square off against the other.

What should we do? Recognize what is happening. When we have two points that both exist in Scripture we shouldn't see contradiction or a reason to choose... we should be humbled and reminded that we lack the mind of God. And, we should >>WAIT<< and pray until God is ready to make the connection we lack!
 
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redleghunter

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The major issue I have with Calvin's doctrine is this. If God changes my own will to repent and he succeeded, then why is God not doing the same for all men, knowing fully well he wants ALL to be saved.
Again, not so much a Calvin issue as it is a Biblical issue as revealed to us.

God created an entire universe with a purpose and in that purpose made choices (elected by His Will). For example, God filled this world with various species of life forms yet chose to create man and woman in His image and likeness. One could ask the question...why did God create a bunch of 'dumb' animals and not extend to them the same creation as in mankind?

Out of thousands of peoples, dozens of races of peoples and nations God chose Abraham and through his seed in Isaac chose Israel and set them apart. Yet all those peoples and nations still got rain, still received their harvest and still prospered. But Israel was chosen and set apart. One could ask the question...why was only one man and by extension one nation set apart and chosen?

The first question is difficult to answer as I would be questioning God's very Will in His own creation. The second question is much clearer as we know God revealed Israel would be the chosen to be the beacon on the other nations and also the Promise of Messiah would come from her.

So, I would say you asking the question why God says He wants all to be saved (the Bible supports this of course) and not all are chosen (elected) to become new creations in Christ (the Bible supports this as well) is loop back to the original question of why did God create as He did?

YHWH God did give us some insight into this which we hu-mans will not be popular at cocktail parties for pointing out:

Isaiah 45: NKJV

9 “Woe to him who strives with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
Or shall your handiwork
say, ‘He has no hands’?
10 Woe to him who says to
his father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to the woman, ‘What have you brought forth?’”


The apostle Paul picks up on this in Romans 9:

Romans 9: NKJV
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Then we have:

Isaiah 55: NKJV
6 Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.



8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor
are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For
as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.


10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,

But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper
in the thing for which I sent it.

Again, the above is not popular in post-modern culture where the YHWH revealed in His own Word is considered a 'cosmic bully.'
 
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mark kennedy

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I have a little joke that I've always thought was insightful. A man is caught in a flood and the waters have submerged the first floor of his two story home. A guy in a boat comes by and says get in, I will get you out of here. He says no, I'm trusting God to save me. A little while later the waters have forced him on the roof, another boat comes by and they say, get in, we can get you out of here. He says no, I'm trusting God to save me. Finally he is standing on the chimney and a helicopter drops a rope, climb up they tell him, we will get you out of here. He says, nope, I'm trusting God to save me. Well he drowns and when he is before God he says God I was trusting you to save me, why did you let me drown. God says, I sent you two boats and a helicopter.

We must receive the salvation God has provided, I know the joke is kind of lame but the issue at the heart of this isn't. We must receive the righteousness of God in Christ, there is no other way. God sent his Son to take our place, that is our most sacred tradition and profoundly theological doctrine of faith. God sent us the Law, he sent us the Prophets, finally he sent of Christ and the Apostles and if we reject that, frankly, we deserve to drown in our own devices. We must repent or perish, there was never a third choice.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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redleghunter

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Ken Rank

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Here's an expanded discussion on the quotes:

Spurgeon’s Theology: Embracing Biblical Paradox - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

I believe Spurgeon called the tensions you mentioned as Biblical paradoxes. To be contrasted with the use of the word 'contradictions' as many of the atheist persuasion like to use.
I am good with that... tension is a much better word. :) I truly see them as times when we should be reminded that we don't have His mind and we need Him to help us understand it all. Otherwise, it IS all us and not Him and then who is this about? Us... and that isn't a healthy place to be.

Be blessed.
Ken
 
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redleghunter

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Look up "Trinity" now. The concept of free will is all over the bible, from beginning to end.
I agree one can draw out truths via exegesis. Glad you are on board with that.

It is true there are ample examples of men and women in the Bible making choices. The issue at hand is which 'bondage' were they under when making those decisions? Not an easy task to determine at times as we know God causes it to rain on the righteous an wicked.
 
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Oldmantook

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Obviously this is not true. According to Scripture, the Lake of Fire is the eternal destiny of all who are placed there under God's righteous judgment.

They may still bow the knee to Christ in Hell, but it will be too late for them to be redeemed. This would be similar to a murderer in a monarchy, who is given a life sentence in prison, but acknowledges that the king of his country is indeed the king. That does not release him from prison.
Study the Greek, if you're able. The word translated as "eternal" in your English Bible is from the Greek words aionion, aionious. These are adjectival forms of the noun aion which means "age" not "eternity." An adjective modifies a noun but cannot change the meaning of the noun. Therefore aionion/aionios cannot mean eternal when the noun they modify means an age of limited time - not endless time. Aionion/aionios properly translated means something like "age-during" or pertaining to an age - not eternal.
Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, a well-known Bible teacher, hailed as "the prince of expositors" wrote in his book "God’s Method’s With Men" on pages 185, 6, "Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how to use the word ‘eternity.’ We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is NO word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ‘eternal,’ which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end."
 
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Bible Believing Gentiles

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It was to reverse the curse of sin and death. A dear friend teaches on this calling it, "The Gospel on LSD." What he means is this...

If a Life of Sin equals Death (that is where the LSD comes from :) ) then the opposite would have to happen to reverse it.

So...

Life - the opposite of is.... Death
Sin- the opposite of is.... Perfection
Death - the opposite of is.... Life

So the Death of Perfection equals Life... the opposite of what first Adam represents. The first Adam sinned and death was the result, the second Adam did not sin and died but death was not for perfection. So, the grave could not contain perfection, he resurrected and now has earned the right to perfect whomever and whatever he wills.

Wow that blew my mind. That's really inspired
 
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Micah888

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There is NO word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ‘eternal,’ which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end."
This is where Christians need to recognize that lexicons can only go so far. Is God eternal? Absolutely. Does the Bible say that he is from eternity to eternity? Absolutely. Does He grant eternal life to His children? Absolutely. So why should we doubt that those in Hell --separated from God -- will not be there eternally?
 
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mark kennedy

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This is where Christians need to recognize that lexicons can only go so far. Is God eternal? Absolutely. Does the Bible say that he is from eternity to eternity? Absolutely. Does He grant eternal life to His children? Absolutely. So why should we doubt that those in Hell --separated from God -- will not be there eternally?
With a few exceptions, that is exactly how the New Testament word is used. God is forever, the glory of God is forever, hell is forever and described with this very word.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So why should we doubt that those in Hell --separated from God -- will not be there eternally?
GOOD QUESTION.

Look at every occurence IN ENGLISH of "eternally" / "forever" / "everlasting" and similar words in the Bible.

You might find out that some piece of land is "eternally" given to one tribe....
and other things that last "forever" ..... IN ENGLISH !!!!!!!!

Throughout the BIBLE.

But not in the original language nor meaning without end ....see ? the myth of what "eternally" means has been perpetrated for so long,
for so many generations ,
that few people ever seek the TRUTH or keep seeking the TRUTH until they find it -

they go along trying not to make waves with the myths they learned all their lives and their parents lives and their grand-parents lives and so on.
 
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Micah888

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But not in the original language nor meaning without end ....see ?
How did you arrive at this conclusion? Eternal and everlasting mean exactly that in Scripture. Let's take an example (Isaiah 9:6):

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting [Father], The Prince of Peace.

That Hebrew word אֲבִיעַ֖ד (aviad) translated as everlasting (with Father not being in the Hebrew) means everlasting.

Strong's Concordance
ad: perpetuity
Original Word: עַד
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ad
Phonetic Spelling: (ad)
Short Definition: forever

Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. עַד and וָעֶ֑ד (so always) noun masculine perpetuity
(= advancing time, compare Assyrian adû, time at the present times)

d. of divine existence, שֹׁכֵן עַד Isaiah 57:15; attributes, לָעַד Psalm 111:3; Psalm 111:10; Psalm 112:3; Psalm 112:9; residence in Zion, עֲדֵי עַד Psalm 132:14; law of God לָעַד Psalm 19:10; promise as to dynasty of David, לָעד Psalm 89:30; עֲדֵי עַד Psalm 132:12; inheritance of land, לָעַד Psalm 37:29; continuous relations between God and his people 1 Chronicles 28:9; Isaiah 64:8; Micah 7:18 לעד
 
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fhansen

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Thank you for clarifying.


Hypotheticals or 'what if's' are not good reasons to establish theologies around them. What did the apostles say?

Ephesians 2: NKJV
They're not hypotheticals. Because for every exhortation and encouragement, every positive bit of hyperbole, there're also warnings and admonitions which only make sense because of the very real possibility of a believer falling away:
"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them." Eph 5:3-7

Similarly Peter's letters warn followers to keep the faith and those who are called to make their calling and election sure.
Please link me to the sermon that I may see the quote in context.
Here's more of the full quote. You'll find it in Augustine's later writings, Sermo 169,11,13L 38,923
“He was handed over for our offenses, and He rose again for our justification (19).” What does this mean, “for our justification”? So that He might justify us; so that He might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you be a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”
 
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redleghunter

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Study the Greek, if you're able. The word translated as "eternal" in your English Bible is from the Greek words aionion, aionious. These are adjectival forms of the noun aion which means "age" not "eternity."
That is one possibility but the context determines the meaning and not the root word solely.

Strong's G165 - aiōn

Strong’s Definitions
αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 165: αἰών
αἰών, (ῶνος, ὁ (as if Αιε — poetic for ἀεί — ὤν, so teaches Aristotle, de caelo 1, 11, 9, vol. i., p. 279{a} 27; (so Proclus book iv. in Plato, Timaeo, p. 241; and others); but more probable is the conjecture (cf. Etym. Magn. 41, 11) that αἰών is so connected with ἄημι to breathe, blow, as to denote properly that which causes life, vital force; cf. Harless on Ephesians 2:2). (But αἰών ( = αἰϝών) is now generally connected with αἰεί, ἀεί, Sanskrit evas (aivas), Latinaevum, Goth. aivs, German ewig, English aye, ever; cf. Curtius, § 585; Fick, Part i., p. 27; Vanicek, p. 79; Benfey, Wurzellex, i., p. 7f; Schleicher, Compend. edition 2, p. 400; Pott, Etymologicum Forsch., edition 2, 2:2, p. 442; Ebeling, Lex. Homer under the word; Liddell and Scott, under the word ἀεί; Cremer, edd, 2, 3,4 (although in edition 1 he agreed with Prof. Grimm); Pott and Fick, however, connect it with Sanskrit ayus rather than evas, although both these forms are derived from i to go (see Pott, Sehleicher, Fick, Vanicek, as above).) In Greek authors:
1. age (Latinaevum, which is αἰών with the Aeolic digamma), a human lifetime (in Homer, Herodotus, Pindar, Tragic poets), life itself (Homer Iliad 5, 685 με καί λίποι αἰών etc.).
2. an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity, (Plato, Tim., p. 37 d. 38 a.; Tim. Locr., p. 97 d. (quoted below); Plutarch, others). With this signification the Hebrew and rabbinical idea of the word עולָם (of which in the Sept. αἰών is the equivalent) combines in the Biblical and ecclesiastical writings Hence, in the N. T. used:
1. a. universally: in the phrases εἰς τόν αἰῶνα, לְעולָם (Genesis 6:3), forever, John 6:51, 58; John 14:16; Hebrews 5:6; Hebrews 6:20, etc.; and strengthened εἰς τόν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, Hebrews 1:8 (from Psalm 44:7(Ps. 45:7) Alexandrian LXX, cf. Winer's Grammar, § 36, 22 (Tobit 6:18; Psalm 82:18 (Ps. 83:18), etc.); εἰς αἰῶνα, Jude 1:13; εἰς ἡμέραν αἰῶνος unto the day which is eternity (genitive of apposition), 2 Peter 3:18 (cf. Sir. 18:10 (9)); with a negation: never, John 4:14 (Lachmann in brackets); John 8:51; 10:28; 11:26; 13:8; 1 Corinthians 8:13; or not for ever, not always, John 8:35; εἰς τούς αἰῶνας, unto the ages, i. e., as long as time shall be (the plural denotes the individual ages whose sum is eternity): (Luke 1:33); Romans 1:25; Romans 9:5; Romans 11:36; (Romans 16:27 R G Tr WH); 2 Corinthians 11:31; Hebrews 13:8; εἰς πάντας τούς αἰῶνας, Jude 1:25; εἰςτούς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων (in which expression the endless future is divided up into various periods, the shorter of which are comprehended in the longer (cf. Winers Grammar, § 36, 2; among the various phrases to express duration composed of this word with preposition or adjuncts (which to the number of more than fifteen are to be found in the Sept., cf. Vaughan on Romans 1:25), this combination of the double plural seems to be peculiar to the N. T.)): (Romans 16:27 L T); Galatians 1:5; (Philippians 4:20); 1 Timothy 1:17; (2 Timothy 4:18; 1 Peter 4:11); Revelation 1:6, 18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 19:3; Revelation 20:10; Revelation 22:5; εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων, Revelation 14:11; ὁ αἰών τῶν αἰώνων the (whole) age embracing the (shorter) ages, Ephesians 3:21 (cf. Meyer (or Ellicott) at the passage); ἀπό τῶν αἰώνωνfrom the ages down, from eternity, Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:9; πρό τῶν αἰώνων before time was, before the foundation of the world, 1 Corinthians 2:7; πρόθεσις τῶν αἰώνων eternal purpose, Ephesians 3:11.
b. in hyperbolic and popular usage: ἀπό τοῦ αἰῶνος (מֵעולָםGenesis 6:4, cf. Deuteronomy 32:7) from the most ancient time down (within the memory of man), from of old, Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; Acts 15:18(Tobit 4:12 οἱ πατέρες ἡμῶν ἀπό τοῦ αἰῶνος; οἱ ἀπʹ αἰῶνος Ῥωμαῖοι, Dion Cass. 63, 20, 2 cf. 5; Longinus, 34 τούς ἀπʹ αἰῶνος ῥήτορας); also ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος, John 9:32 (1 Esdr. 2:19, 22 (23); Diodorus 4:83 of the temple of Venus τήν, ἐξ αἰῶνος ἀρχήν λαβόν, 17, 1 τούς ἐξ αἰῶνος βασιλεῖς(excerpt. de legat, xl.), p. 632 τήν ἐξ αἰῶνος παραδεδομένην ἐλευθερίαν).


Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

  2. the worlds, universe

  3. period of time, age

An adjective modifies a noun but cannot change the meaning of the noun.
As you can see above translating from the original languages is not so simple. The context and attributes involved in the passage is critical to the meaning. Just as inflection changes meaning in a lot of Asian languages.

If we follow your model, we would end up with a translation where God is "age enduring" and eternal or everlasting life would have a temporal limit.

Again not as easy as applying one definition of many from the root word.

Therefore we see aiōnios describes more as an adjective should.

Strong's G166 - aiōnios

Strong's Info
Strong’s Definitions
αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

KJV Translation Count — Total: 71x
The KJV translates Strong's G166 in the following manner: eternal (42x), everlasting (25x), the world began (with G5550) (2x), since the world began (with G5550) (1x), for ever (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

  2. without beginning

  3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 166: αἰώνιος
αἰώνιος,, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. (see below); Diodorus 1:1; (cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23))) αἰώνιος, αἰώνια, αἰώνιον (αἰών);
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: Θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.
2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρό χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philcmon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9(the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2(also,dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdras (Fritzsche, 5 Esdr.) 4 Esdras 2:11 [2 Esdras 2:11]); similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tobit 3:6, cf. Ecclesiastes 12:5); σωτηρία, Hebrews 5:9; (so Mark 16 (WH) in the (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion'). Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Matthew 25:46; κρίμα, Hebrews 6:2; κρίσις, Mark 3:29 (Rec. (but L T WH Tr text ἁμαρτήματος; in Acta Thom. § 47, p. 227 Tdf., ἔσται σοι τοῦτο εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καί λύτρον αἰωνίων παραπτωμάτων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λύτρον, αἰώνιον (cf. Hebrews 9:12))); ὄλεθρος (Lachmann text ὀλέθριος, 2 Thessalonians 1:9(4 Macc. 10:15); πῦρ, Matthew 25:41 (4 Macc. 12:12 αἰωνίῳ πυρί καί βασάνοις, αἱ εἰς ὅλον τόν αἰῶνα οὐκ ἀρνήσουσί σε). (Of the examples of αἰώνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than ἀΐδιος, which see, of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nora. § 2; de caritate § 17; κόλασις αἰώνιος fragment in Mang. 2:667 at the end (Richter 6:229 middle); cf. de praem, et poen. § 12. Other examples are de alleg, leg. iii., § 70; de poster. Caini § 35; quod deus immut. § 30; quis rer. div. her. § 58; de congressu quaer, erud. § 19; de secular sec 38; de somn. ii. § 43; de Josepho § 24; quod omn. prob. book § 4, § 18; de ebrietate § 32; de Abrah. § 10; ζωή αἰώνιος: de secular § 15; Θεός (ὁ) αἰώνιος: de plantat. § 2, § 18 (twice), § 20 (twice);de mundo § 2. from Josephus: Antiquities 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, I; κλέος αἰών Antiquities 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5, μνήμη αἱ.: Antiquities 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οἶκον μέν αἰώνιον ἔχεις (of God), Antiquities 8, 4, 2; ἐφυλάχθη ὁ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4. SYNONYMS: ἀΐδιος, αἰώνιος: ἀΐδιος covers the complete philosophic idea — without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. αἰώνιος (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχής continuous, unintermitted, διατελής perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αἰών); αἰώνιος accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things, see the N. T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. Θεόν δέ τόν μέν αἰώνιον νόος ὄρη μόνοςetc.; Plato, Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum at the passage); 38 b. c.; legg. x., p. 904 a. ἀνώλεθρον δέ ὄν γενόμενον, ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον. Cf. also Plato's διαιώνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt, chapter 45.

Not even one instance of "age enduring."
Therefore aionion/aionios cannot mean eternal when the noun they modify means an age of limited time - not endless time. Aionion/aionios properly translated means something like "age-during" or pertaining to an age - not eternal.
As shown above the abundance of NT scholarship does not support this position.
 
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redleghunter

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Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, a well-known Bible teacher, hailed as "the prince of expositors" wrote in his book "God’s Method’s With Men" on pages 185, 6, "Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how to use the word ‘eternity.’ We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is NO word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ‘eternal,’ which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end."
Could you link to the context of his quote? I ask because I seriously doubt Morgan would deny calling God eternal as an error.
 
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redleghunter

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They're not hypotheticals. Because for every exhortation and encouragement, every positive bit of hyperbole, there're also warnings and admonitions which only make sense because of the very real possibility of a belie
You are assuming failure. Failure of God to keep His promises.

I'm not arguing one can live in sin and claim to be a child of God. My point is God is faithful and true to equip the saints to endure. He keeps His promises. He preserves us so we persevere. That is truly the trust and faith He desires from us.
 
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JIMINZ

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Why did not God intend to actually save anyone? You hint that God cannot actually save anyone without coercing them. Can’t God change our hearts and give us the desire to repent?

Your making it sound as though a person has the ability to choose to come to, or believe in Jesus (God) through his free will.

If mankind had this free will why does it take so long for people to finally get Saved?


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Rom. 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom. 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom. 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom. 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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JIMINZ

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First and foremost, to glorify God.
Secondly, to effectively and sufficiently save His elect people. We do not know the identity of the elect. This is not only Calvinism, this is Biblical.

.
I'm sorry but we do know who the Elect are.

They were the Jews of the time of Christ.

Look up the word Elect, and see who it speaks of.
 
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JoeP222w

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I'm sorry but we do know who the Elect are.

You will not find biblical support of that claim.

They were the Jews of the time of Christ.

Then, following that logic, there is no hope for the Gentiles (non-Jews), the majority of the world.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Colossians 3:11-12 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. (12) Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

Clearly it is not just Israel (or the Jews)

Look up the word Elect, and see who it speaks of.

As demonstrated, the elect are those who are in Christ, Jew and Gentile.
 
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Hawkins

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Whoever calling upon His name shall be saved.

God knows in advance who will be saved in the end. Those He knows crystal clear being saved in the end is called His Elect. Their identities are written in the Book of Life. That's not the point. The point is God needs His salvation to be done openly under the witnessing of His angels and chosen saints. It is an openly witnessed process. We are all predestined to be put into such a process to show who we are during our short stay here on earth. We are predestined such that we can be shown to be His Elect in our short life time.

God knows everything in advance. We are predestined to be shown to be His Elect within our short life time when openly assessed by the New Covenant. That's the point.
 
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