Hades is the grave

CherubRam

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Yes. Jude 1:6 is saying that the angels are in a dark place awaiting judgement for the Lake of Fire.

But if you move to verse 7, it states that Sodom and Gemorrah, which would be the people since cities don't go to hell, because of sexual ruin, just like them - the angels - are another example, burning and never burning up (eternal) they are as another example.

So here, again, we read about persons going to eternal punishment, and I also posted other verses in my post no. 18;
here they are again:

Revelation 21:8
Mathew 10:28
Mathew 13:50 JESUS speaking
Mathew 25:41 JESUS speaking
Mathew 25:46 JESUS speaking
Mark 9:43 JESUS speaking
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Jude 1:7

Jude 1:6
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great Day of Judgment.

This verse is speaking of a rebellion that took place during the days of Moses.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Do you believe that Christ and the disciples promoted Pagan myths? The word used in 2 Peter 2:4 is Tartarus.

In the Iliad (c. 700 BC), Zeus asserts that Tartarus is "as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth." While according to Greek mythology the realm of Hades is the place of the dead, Tartarus also has a number of inhabitants.
In Greek mythology, Tartarus was both a primordial deity that existed before the Olympians, as well as a name to describe a region of the Underworld. As a god, he was third in rank after Chaos and Gaea, preceding Eros.
Yes. The word is tartarus.
The story of Adam and Eve is also similar to other myths or fables of that region.

So what are we to assume?
Whatever hell was called and whatever the name meant:
sheoul
hades
Gehenna
we still have to decide if Jesus spoke about a place where God is not. Jesus might have mentioned fire and burning a lot due to analogies with trees and braches and burning them, etc.
I don't believe anyone is qualified to know how heaven will be or how hell will be; I do believe that there will be weeping and that God will not be there.

Catholics believe in the communion of saints, that means that the dead can see us and hear us and can even speak to God for us.

I don't quite understand the pagan myth Jesus promoted.
The translators have created some problem...
Jesus spoke about going to a reward and going to a punishment...this is really all we can know. Even Paul didn't describe heaven to us.
For instance,
John 5:28-29
 
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GodsGrace101

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Jude 1:6
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great Day of Judgment.

This verse is speaking of a rebellion that took place during the days of Moses.
What is your opinion to
Jude 1:9 ?
 
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RDKirk

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Yes. The word is tartarus.
The story of Adam and Eve is also similar to other myths or fables of that region.

So what are we to assume?
Whatever hell was called and whatever the name meant:
sheoul
hades
Gehenna
we still have to decide if Jesus spoke about a place where God is not. Jesus might have mentioned fire and burning a lot due to analogies with trees and braches and burning them, etc.
I don't believe anyone is qualified to know how heaven will be or how hell will be; I do believe that there will be weeping and that God will not be there.

Catholics believe in the communion of saints, that means that the dead can see us and hear us and can even speak to God for us.

I don't quite understand the pagan myth Jesus promoted.
The translators have created some problem...
Jesus spoke about going to a reward and going to a punishment...this is really all we can know. Even Paul didn't describe heaven to us.
For instance,
John 5:28-29

The scripture writers had spiritual concepts to convey, and in many cases there were already pagan concepts as similar to those spiritual concepts as their audience was able to understand.

So there was already a word understood by their audience that conceptualized a "temporary holding place" for human spirits--Hades.

There was already a word understood by their audience that conceptualized a "permanent holding place" for supernatural spirits--Tartarus.

The Greeks didn't have a word to describe a concept of continuous destruction (or eternal destruction), but there was an existing location that came close: Gehenna.

When you look at how each of these words is used in context, the difference in meaning is apparent (note that Gehenna is frequently translated "hellfire" rather than merely "hell").
 
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CherubRam

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Yes. The word is tartarus.
The story of Adam and Eve is also similar to other myths or fables of that region.

So what are we to assume?
Whatever hell was called and whatever the name meant:
sheoul
hades
Gehenna
we still have to decide if Jesus spoke about a place where God is not. Jesus might have mentioned fire and burning a lot due to analogies with trees and braches and burning them, etc.
I don't believe anyone is qualified to know how heaven will be or how hell will be; I do believe that there will be weeping and that God will not be there.

Catholics believe in the communion of saints, that means that the dead can see us and hear us and can even speak to God for us.

I don't quite understand the pagan myth Jesus promoted.
The translators have created some problem...
Jesus spoke about going to a reward and going to a punishment...this is really all we can know. Even Paul didn't describe heaven to us.
For instance,
John 5:28-29


Those who believe in Hell support the Serpent's doctrine against what God says.


Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


Genesis 3:3
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

God never said they could not examine the fruit.


Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell.

Note: The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.





Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.


Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.


1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.


Proverbs 2:18
For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.


Proverbs 8:36
But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."


Proverbs 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.


Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.


Proverbs 23:14
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.



Psalm 56:13
For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.


Psalm 118:18
The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.


Hosea 13:14
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?


Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'


Ezekiel 18:32
I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!


Ezekiel 18:23
I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?


Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."


Mark 9:1
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God come with power."


Luke 9:27
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God."


John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


Hebrews 6:1
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,…


James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Gehenna).


Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades (Gehenna) was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades (grave) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.





Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


Matthew 10:28
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in (hell / Gehenna. )


A soul consist of both body and spirit.


Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?
 
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CherubRam

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What is your opinion to
Jude 1:9 ?

Verse nine is a Gnostic insertion.

Bible Gateway
The dispute mentioned between the Archangel Michael and the Devil does not suit itself to the doctrinal views of the Sadducees since they denied the existence of angels. (Acts 23:8 states this clearly).

In regards to verse nine in the Book of Jude:
Chrysostom and Jerome mention Jude's quoting from a non-canonical sources as the reason it being disputed by some as canonical.

From: (Nigel B. Mitchell) Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian Subject: Jude 9 Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:02:02 GMT As promised, some verifiable evidence about the background of Jude verse 9. In a large volume titled "The Old testament Psudepigrapha" vol. 1 (DLT, 1983) in an article introducing the text of "The Testament of Moses (1st Century), J. Priest (pp 919ff) writes that the Testament of Moses is a virtual rewrite of Deuteronomy 31-34. It is generally held to have influenced the following NT passages: Jude 9, 12-13, 2 Peter 2:13, Acts 7:36-43, Matthew 24:19-21. "Jude 9 refers to a story of the disputes between Michael and Satan over the body of Jesus, an account that does not appear in our text. That the episode was contained in the lost ending of the Testament of Moses, or in a cognate work, possibly called the Assumption of Moses, is possible, but our present information does not warrand any positive conclusion. ... The possibility exists that some NT authors were familiar with the testament of Moses, but it would be better to say that both the Testament of Moses and certain NT texts show familiarity with common traditional material." In the Word Biblical Commentary on Jude, 2 Peter, (Word Books, 1983), R.J. Bauckham includes an excursus on pp. 65-76 on the sources of Jude 9. This is the most comprehensive text I could find - eleven pages on tis one verse! It is worth looking up, if you are interested and have access to a theological library. Bauckham details the relation of Jude 9 to OT and other sources, and writes "There is widespread agreement that Jude's source in verse 9 was the lost ending of a work sometimes known as the Assumption of Moses, but more appropriately known as the Testament of Moses" "Although the ending of the Testament of Moses is no longer extant, a number of Christian sources seem to have preserved the substance of the story it contained" Sources are listed, including Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Dydimus the Blind (!), Gelasius, ... The article concludes that the "Assumption of Moses" is a second- century edited version of the Testimony of Moses", and that Jude was aware of, and alluded to, at least the tradition, if not the precise wording of the Testimony. Peake's commentary on the Bible, sv "Jude". "Jude drew on the OT (Septuagint version), Enoch, and the Assumption of Moses..." The Epistles of James, .Peter and Jude - Anchor Bible commentary (Doubleday 1980). Bo Reicke writes "According to well known authorities of the early Church like Clement, Origen and others, the reference to Michael's contention with the Devil comes from an apocryphal intertestamental book entitled "The Assumption of Moses". (p. 202) Introducton to the New testament (SCM Press, 1983) R.F. Collins writes "... the small letter of Jude cites both the Apocalypse of Moses (Jude 8-9) and 1 Enoch (Jude 14-15) in a reverential manner..." (page 10) Jude and the relatives of Jesus in the early Church (T&T Clark 1990) R Bauckham (I think the same person who wrote the Word commentary) writes "According to the Alexandrian Fathers... the story of the dispute over the body of Moses, to which Jude 9 refers, was contained in an apocryphal work called the Assumption of Moses. ... some 19th century scholars took the account of Jude to be a factual one, ...and denied any dependence on the Assumption of Moses, which [they] argued was a second century Christian work based on Jude" (p 141) Bauckham concludes that it is most likely that Jude used the lost ending of the Testament of Moses, and that "The story in this version can be reconstituted [from extant sources] with some confidence" (p.144). === The above shows that the matter of the background of Jude 9 is by no means an easy or simple matter. I could not find any texts which dealt with Jude 9 and did not mention the Testament/Assumption/Apocalypse of Moses, and only Bauckham's incidental reference suggested that there was any likelihood that Jude wrote without getting his information from the written or oral Jewish tradition. What I have collected above is the kind of evidence with which scholars work. It still leaves many questions and possibilities open, but points towards a fairly strong consensus that Jude 9 is an allusion to a Jewish pseudepigraphal work which was well known to both Jude and his readers. Cheers N+ Nigel B. Mitchell
 
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GodsGrace101

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The scripture writers had spiritual concepts to convey, and in many cases there were already pagan concepts as similar to those spiritual concepts as their audience was able to understand.

So there was already a word understood by their audience that conceptualized a "temporary holding place" for human spirits--Hades.

There was already a word understood by their audience that conceptualized a "permanent holding place" for supernatural spirits--Tartarus.

The Greeks didn't have a word to describe a concept of continuous destruction (or eternal destruction), but there was an existing location that came close: Gehenna.

When you look at how each of these words is used in context, the difference in meaning is apparent (note that Gehenna is frequently translated "hellfire" rather than merely "hell").
Yes, I agree with you.
Gehenna is hell fire because of what it was...
the burning ground for trash in the Gidron Valley.
The ideas were conveyed as best as is possible...
 
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GodsGrace101

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Verse nine is a Gnostic insertion.

Bible Gateway
The dispute mentioned between the Archangel Michael and the Devil does not suit itself to the doctrinal views of the Sadducees since they denied the existence of angels. (Acts 23:8 states this clearly).

In regards to verse nine in the Book of Jude:
Chrysostom and Jerome mention Jude's quoting from a non-canonical sources as the reason it being disputed by some as canonical.

From: (Nigel B. Mitchell) Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian Subject: Jude 9 Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 05:02:02 GMT As promised, some verifiable evidence about the background of Jude verse 9. In a large volume titled "The Old testament Psudepigrapha" vol. 1 (DLT, 1983) in an article introducing the text of "The Testament of Moses (1st Century), J. Priest (pp 919ff) writes that the Testament of Moses is a virtual rewrite of Deuteronomy 31-34. It is generally held to have influenced the following NT passages: Jude 9, 12-13, 2 Peter 2:13, Acts 7:36-43, Matthew 24:19-21. "Jude 9 refers to a story of the disputes between Michael and Satan over the body of Jesus, an account that does not appear in our text. That the episode was contained in the lost ending of the Testament of Moses, or in a cognate work, possibly called the Assumption of Moses, is possible, but our present information does not warrand any positive conclusion. ... The possibility exists that some NT authors were familiar with the testament of Moses, but it would be better to say that both the Testament of Moses and certain NT texts show familiarity with common traditional material." In the Word Biblical Commentary on Jude, 2 Peter, (Word Books, 1983), R.J. Bauckham includes an excursus on pp. 65-76 on the sources of Jude 9. This is the most comprehensive text I could find - eleven pages on tis one verse! It is worth looking up, if you are interested and have access to a theological library. Bauckham details the relation of Jude 9 to OT and other sources, and writes "There is widespread agreement that Jude's source in verse 9 was the lost ending of a work sometimes known as the Assumption of Moses, but more appropriately known as the Testament of Moses" "Although the ending of the Testament of Moses is no longer extant, a number of Christian sources seem to have preserved the substance of the story it contained" Sources are listed, including Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Dydimus the Blind (!), Gelasius, ... The article concludes that the "Assumption of Moses" is a second- century edited version of the Testimony of Moses", and that Jude was aware of, and alluded to, at least the tradition, if not the precise wording of the Testimony. Peake's commentary on the Bible, sv "Jude". "Jude drew on the OT (Septuagint version), Enoch, and the Assumption of Moses..." The Epistles of James, .Peter and Jude - Anchor Bible commentary (Doubleday 1980). Bo Reicke writes "According to well known authorities of the early Church like Clement, Origen and others, the reference to Michael's contention with the Devil comes from an apocryphal intertestamental book entitled "The Assumption of Moses". (p. 202) Introducton to the New testament (SCM Press, 1983) R.F. Collins writes "... the small letter of Jude cites both the Apocalypse of Moses (Jude 8-9) and 1 Enoch (Jude 14-15) in a reverential manner..." (page 10) Jude and the relatives of Jesus in the early Church (T&T Clark 1990) R Bauckham (I think the same person who wrote the Word commentary) writes "According to the Alexandrian Fathers... the story of the dispute over the body of Moses, to which Jude 9 refers, was contained in an apocryphal work called the Assumption of Moses. ... some 19th century scholars took the account of Jude to be a factual one, ...and denied any dependence on the Assumption of Moses, which [they] argued was a second century Christian work based on Jude" (p 141) Bauckham concludes that it is most likely that Jude used the lost ending of the Testament of Moses, and that "The story in this version can be reconstituted [from extant sources] with some confidence" (p.144). === The above shows that the matter of the background of Jude 9 is by no means an easy or simple matter. I could not find any texts which dealt with Jude 9 and did not mention the Testament/Assumption/Apocalypse of Moses, and only Bauckham's incidental reference suggested that there was any likelihood that Jude wrote without getting his information from the written or oral Jewish tradition. What I have collected above is the kind of evidence with which scholars work. It still leaves many questions and possibilities open, but points towards a fairly strong consensus that Jude 9 is an allusion to a Jewish pseudepigraphal work which was well known to both Jude and his readers. Cheers N+ Nigel B. Mitchell
I do respect many of the Early Church Fathers and the above can be searched.
To be honest, I don't think it's very important to understand this, but it does come up every now and then. There are a few passages in the O.T. also that are not really understood.
2 to 4 thousand years is a long time!

Thanks for the info.
Will be looking into the Assumption of Moses.
 
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CherubRam

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Yes, I agree with you.
Gehenna is hell fire because of what it was...
the burning ground for trash in the Gidron Valley.
The ideas were conveyed as best as is possible...

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.

According to Archaeologist, there is no evidence to support that Gehenna was a place for burning garbage. There were however lots of Potsherds found.


Jeremiah 19:2
and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,

Jeremiah 19:11
and say to them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will smash this nation and this city just as this potter’s jar is smashed and cannot be repaired. They will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.

According to Archaeologist, there is no evidence to support that Gehenna was a place for burning garbage. There were however lots of Potsherds found.


Jeremiah 19:2
and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,

Jeremiah 19:11
and say to them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will smash this nation and this city just as this potter’s jar is smashed and cannot be repaired. They will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
LOL
Archaeologists didn't think Jericho existed till the 1930's!
Wonder why the pots?
I learned that it was the dumping ground and then it was set aflame every now and then.
So much to know!
 
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CherubRam

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Link: Michael - Holman Bible Dictionary - Bible Dictionary - StudyLight.org

Holman Bible Dictionary
Michael
(mi' kihl) Personal name meaning, “Who is like God?”. 1. Father of one of the twelve Israelite spies (Numbers 13:13 ). 2-3 .Two Gadites (1 Chronicles 5:13-14 ). 4 . Ancestor of Asaph (1 Chronicles 6:40 ). 5 . Leader of the tribe of Issachar (1 Chronicles 7:3 ) perhaps identical to the father of Omri (1 Chronicles 27:18 ). 6 . Leader of the tribe of Benjamin (1 Chronicles 8:16 ); 7 . Manassite who defected to David's army (1 Chronicles 12:20 ). 8 . Son of King Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 21:2 ). 9 . Ancestor of one of those who returned from Exile with Ezra (Ezra 8:8 ). 10 . Archangel who served as the guardian of the national of Israel (Daniel 10:13 ,Daniel 10:13,10:21 ; Daniel 12:1 ). Together with Gabriel, Michael fought for Israel against the prince (angelic patron) of Persia. This angelic Michael figures in much extra-biblical literature in the intertestamental period. In Revelation 12:7 Michael commands the forces of God against the forces of the dragon in a war in heaven. Jude 1:9 refers to a dispute between the devil and Michael over Moses' body. According to Origin (A.D. 185? to 254?), this account formed part of the extra-biblical work, The Assumption of Moses . The incident is not mentioned in the surviving fragments of this work.
 
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pat34lee

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You didn't speak to Luke 16:19-31.
I don't believe in soul sleep.
We're either alive or dead.

So, what do you think all the dead souls are doing while
they wait for the judgment day to arrive? Are they locked
up somewhere or are they wandering loose and haunting
castles and old houses?

They can't be in heaven as the white throne judgment will
not occur until after the thousand year reign is over and
the world we know is destroyed.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So, what do you think all the dead souls are doing while
they wait for the judgment day to arrive? Are they locked
up somewhere or are they wandering loose and haunting
castles and old houses?

They can't be in heaven as the white throne judgment will
not occur until after the thousand year reign is over and
the world we know is destroyed.
Jesus says simply what happens. People here and most places don't care what Jesus says.

Bullinger describes it from all scripture clearly,
but people don't like him either.

People just don't like to hear the truth, and they don't like it when Yahweh's Word says
clearly something different than tradition .
 
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GodsGrace101

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So, what do you think all the dead souls are doing while
they wait for the judgment day to arrive? Are they locked
up somewhere or are they wandering loose and haunting
castles and old houses?

They can't be in heaven as the white throne judgment will
not occur until after the thousand year reign is over and
the world we know is destroyed.
White throne judgement
1,000 year reign.
That sounds like eschatology,,,something I know very little about.

But Paul said that he'd rather be with the Lord than in his body.
2 Corinthians 5:8
And
Philippians 1:23

And Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with Him in paradise, that very day. (Luke 16 is paradise).

So I think our soul and spirit go to be with God upon our death.
Most Christian churches also believe this.
What do you believe?
 
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CherubRam

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White throne judgement
1,000 year reign.
That sounds like eschatology,,,something I know very little about.

But Paul said that he'd rather be with the Lord than in his body.
2 Corinthians 5:8
And
Philippians 1:23

And Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with Him in paradise, that very day. (Luke 16 is paradise).

So I think our soul and spirit go to be with God upon our death.
Most Christian churches also believe this.
What do you believe?
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
 
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CherubRam

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Most theologians believe the comma comes after YOU.
In fact, they both died that day and so had someplace to go. Paradise.
Most theologians believe the comma comes after YOU.
In fact, they both died that day and so had someplace to go. Paradise.
That is because it would support the Catholic doctrine. God can make an exception, but that is not the rule. The rule is that we have to wait for the resurrection.
 
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