Seat of Moses ?

ralliann said:

I think the law much ealier speaks of the children also not being punished for the sins of the fathers. So Ezekiel says nothing any different in that respect. But the law does say, the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation.
Which chapter and verse of Ezekiel are you speaking of?

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Ezekiel 18:1ff is the defining statement. The 3rd and 4th generation was one whole life time (at most) - the sins of the fathers, unrepented of. will have a negative effect on the children, as long as he lives, and beyond. An unrepentant father off leads to unrepentant children. That is why a generation was wiped out in Exodus, so that the following generation would see the promised land; sadly, they learned only too well from their parents how to rebel aghainst G_d.

ralliann said:

Just because a person is not subject to the law of Moses does not mean it is no longer. Which I am sure you already know. So what do you mean by,,, it is no longer?

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Paul doesn't say we are not subject to the Law - quite the opposite. He speaks against legalism, not the truth of the Law. On this forum, being Messianic, we acknowledge that we are subject to the Law and posting against that view is not permitted

Heber Book List said:

Ezekiel 18:1ff is the defining statement. The 3rd and 4th generation was one whole life time (at most) - the sins of the fathers, unrepented of. will have a negative effect on the children, as long as he lives, and beyond. An unrepentant father off leads to unrepentant children. That is why a generation was wiped out in Exodus, so that the following generation would see the promised land; sadly, they learned only too well from their parents how to rebel aghainst G_d.

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I am not convinced of unrepentant parents being the cause. Many righteous parents, David an example had some rotten kids.
As for Ezekiel 18. Perhaps it refers to things like.
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mr 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Lu 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Heber Book List said:

Paul doesn't say we are not subject to the Law - quite the opposite. He speaks against legalism, not the truth of the Law. On this forum, being Messianic, we acknowledge that we are subject to the Law and posting against that view is not permitted

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So, I should have said ...Subject to the judgement of the law....Better?

ralliann said:

So, I should have said ...Subject to the judgement of the law....Better?

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Just to avoid you stepping into difficulties on here

Ezekiel 18 is teaching for all time, forwards, whether for Jews or Gentiles.

Heber Book List said:

Just to avoid you stepping into difficulties on here

Ezekiel 18 is teaching for all time, forwards, whether for Jews or Gentiles.

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So, I think we have some agreement here. For all time... It speaks of the covenant of mercy which was made with Abraham 400 + years before the Sinai covenant (or law).

De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Which mercy extends back even to Noah.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
And forward....
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

ralliann said:

But the child died.....Was this not a part of the story?

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Most Christians note that there is a distinction between the eternal consequences of sin (spiritual death, hell) and temporal punishment (I embezzle money, I go to jail, even if God forgives me. I go to prostitutes, I get syphillis, even if I repent and God forgives me.) The death of David's child was not spiritual death, but a temporal punishment.

Temporal punishments are most often used by God to TEACH us. They are our heavenly Father's way of disciplining us, making us into better people, individual with the minds of the Messiah. This is one of the reasons why Paul says he counts suffering as joy. It brings us closer to the Lord.

So yes, the story doesn't end when we are forgiven and obtain eternal life. The Lord begins a journey with us that starts where we are and ends in sanctification. It includes, by necessity, discipline and pain.

Open Heart said:

Most Christians note that there is a distinction between the eternal consequences of sin (spiritual death, hell) and temporal punishment (I embezzle money, I go to jail, even if God forgives me. I go to prostitutes, I get syphillis, even if I repent and God forgives me.) The death of David's child was not spiritual death, but a temporal punishment.

Temporal punishments are most often used by God to TEACH us. They are our heavenly Father's way of disciplining us, making us into better people, individual with the minds of the Messiah. This is one of the reasons why Paul says he counts suffering as joy. It brings us closer to the Lord.

So yes, the story doesn't end when we are forgiven and obtain eternal life. The Lord begins a journey with us that starts where we are and ends in sanctification. It includes, by necessity, discipline and pain.

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So you are saying the Child died as a result of David's sin.

ralliann said:

So you are saying the Child died as a result of David's sin.

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If you are thinking of David's son, it says explicitly that was the case in scripture at 2 Sam. 12:14. His son died because of his contempt of G_d, his 3rd sin in that incident, as I pointed out peviously. He was forgiven the first two sins.

I am not sure why you have a capital letter in the middle of that sentence - are you thinking of lining all this up with Yeshua's death, perhaps?

ralliann said:

So, I think we have some agreement here. For all time... It speaks of the covenant of mercy which was made with Abraham 400 + years before the Sinai covenant (or law).

De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Which mercy extends back even to Noah.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
And forward....
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

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I do not understand why you keep jumping to the Christian Testament, when we are discussing the Tanach. Unless we understand G_d in the Tanach, the Christian Testament will never make sense to us.

Do you yet understand why it is that a number of people in the Tanach died because of their contempt for G_d - it is a great sin? As the Tanach progresses in time, G_d begins to show his people how this sin corrupts the people, not just the individual. In Ezekied G_d is told he is unfair because he was punishing the people for the sins of their ancestor.s. G_d makes it crystal clear that that ia not the case - people bear their own sins, not those of others. He also points out that the sins of an unrepentant father can affect his family for up to 4 generations - there is a Jewish proverb that illustrates this: The grandfather prayed in Hebrew, the father prayed in English, the son didn't pray at all (he had lost his faith).

The people in Ezekiel thought G_d was still punishing them for sins of the past, but that was not the case, they were in sent into exile for their utter contempt of G_d. Uzzah, who tried to right the carriage of the Ark, was struck for contempt - he presumed that the mighty G_d could not resolve a simple issue like an animal missing its step. Achan's sin was contempt of G_d - he presumed to think that G_d would not know what he had done; G_d made an example of him, to teach his generation. This contempt continues even to this day in so many ways, in and out of Church or Synagogue. Moses died because of his contempt of G_d.

Contempt is also the basis for the prohibition on swearing an oath in G_d's name, and is also the basis for the 'unforgiveable sin' of blasphemy.

Paul, in Romans 7, is an entirely different situation and so cannot relate to this. If, however, you look at the two in Acts 4 who lied about their land value, you will see the same thing happens for their utter contempt of G_d - they were not forgiven! Remember the second thief on the cross - he showed contempt for what G_d was about to do, and he died. Yeshua and the first thief trusted G_d and, though they died a human death, they were assured a place in heaven.

ralliann said:

So you are saying the Child died as a result of David's sin.

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David had shown "utter contempt for the Lord." You don't just, Oh okay I'm fine now" and think you are changed. I think that the LORD used the death to teach David, to crystallize his repentance and make firm his commitment to Torah, and to draw him closer unto himself.

What are your own thoughts?

ralliann said:

So, I think we have some agreement here. For all time... It speaks of the covenant of mercy which was made with Abraham 400 + years before the Sinai covenant (or law).

De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Which mercy extends back even to Noah.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
And forward....
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

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Deut.7:12 reads: Because you are listening to these rulings, keeping and obeying them, Adonai your G_d will keep with you the covenant and mercy that he he swore to your ancestors. But they didn't. In Deut Ch.30 Moses is appealing to them (the generation that had not rebelled and were going to see the Promised Land), to make a choice between life and death! It is all well and good having a Covenant that sets out G_d's rules, but to try and find a way round them is contempt of G_d - it is the very same reason that the exile came into being - their worship was spot on, but it was lip service, and behind it all they were trying to find ways around G_d's law. This is why I can confidently say that Paul was never in denial about the Law of God, but he was against, as was Yeshua, the Pharisees who taught oine thing but led a very different life-style. Yeshua said to do as they teach, but not to copy how they lived!

I struggle to see the relevance of the other texts from the Christian Testament, at this point

Laureate said:

He was warning all who sit in the lawgiver's seat hypocritically, that they shall receive the greater condemnation, and be the last to enter the Kingdom.

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When it says that the Scribes and Pharisee sit in the Seat of Môsʰé it is clearly recognizing Môsʰé AS a Pharisee and Scribe, which many mistaken to be Jewish sects, but were rather Occupations, the Pharisee were biblical lawyers, and the scribes were the biblical recorders, thus anyone taking up these occupations sit in the Seat of the Law giver, We do as they say, (which is scripture) not as they do, (which is hypocritical), and Beware of their Leuven (which is their expoundings, and interpretations).

In essence a preacher is a Pharisee, and a recorder, or translator of Torah is a Scribe.

Laureate said:

When itT says that the Scribes and Pharisee sit in the Seat of Môsʰé it is clearly recognizing Môsʰé AS a Pharisee and Scribe, which many mistaken to be Jewish sects, but were rather Occupations, the Pharisee were biblical lawyers, and the scribes were the biblical recorders, thus anyone taking up these occupations sit in the Seat of the Law giver, We do as they say, (which is scripture) not as they do, (which is hypocritical), and Beware of their Leuven (which is their expoundings, and interpretations).

In essence a preacher is a Pharisee, and a recorder, or translator of Torah is a Scribe.

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Moses did not sit on the seat of the Pharisees, it was the other way around. To say that the Pharisees sat on the seat of Moses is to say that they taught with his authority.

A Pharisee is not just a preacher. There were many preachers who were not Pharisees, preachers who were Essenes and Sadducees. Preaching is a particular job. You can preach and preach Buddhism or Islam. John the Baptist was a preacher but I see no indication that he was a Pharisee -- if anything he seems from his asceticism that he was an Essene.

Pharisees were the descendants of the judges/elders. They were the masters of the Law -- if a ruling was needed or a question needed answering, you went to a Pharisee. They served on tribunals for when lawbreakers were brought to justice. I do not have a PhD in Jewish studies, but this is what i have learned about the beliefs and teachings of the Pharisees:

1. They were tremendous missionaries, bringing the God of Abraham to the Nations. Their primary objective was to make righteous Gentiles aka God fearers (ethical monotheists), but if someone wanted to become a Jew and take on the covenant, they did that as well.
2. They wanted Judaism to be a religion of the people, not just the Levites and the Temple. They opened synagogues for worship and study so that the Lord could become a part of a person's everyday life.
3. It was the Pharisees that opened Jewish day schools so that every Jewish boy would learn to read and write and become educated in the Torah.
4. Unlike the Sadducees who accepted only the Torah (five books of Law) the Pharisees also accepted the books of the Prophets, which meant that they expected a messianic age and a resurrection.
5. The Pharisees also accepted the case law and rulings that had come down orally from the time of Moses through the Judges. This is referred to as Oral Torah.
6. There were two main schools of Pharisees. Bet Shammai was very rigid, strict, and letter of the law; they ran the Sanhedrin during Yeshua's ministry and he got into lots of tangles with them. Bet Hillel, although orthodox, was more relaxed and tried to find ways to make it easier for people to keep the law. It can be argued that Yeshua was a Bet Hillel Pharisee.

Open Heart said:

I think that you are forgetting the Prophet Hosea's stipulation that when no temple is available, the prayers of our lips are our sacrifices. So yes, ritual purity can be reached. Time can pass, or a simple dip in the mikveh is all it takes.

Sin offerings are not for willfully breaking a law.

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There was no offering for willful sin. There was a sin
offering required for uncleanness, though, along with
a burnt offering.

Heber Book List said:

If you are thinking of David's son, it says explicitly that was the case in scripture at 2 Sam. 12:14. His son died because of his contempt of G_d, his 3rd sin in that incident, as I pointed out peviously. He was forgiven the first two sins.

I am not sure why you have a capital letter in the middle of that sentence - are you thinking of lining all this up with Yeshua's death, perhaps?

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the capitol was a boo boo

Open Heart said:

David had shown "utter contempt for the Lord." You don't just, Oh okay I'm fine now" and think you are changed. I think that the LORD used the death to teach David, to crystallize his repentance and make firm his commitment to Torah, and to draw him closer unto himself.

What are your own thoughts?

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I think it was to bring him to full repentance.

Heber Book List said:

Deut.7:12 reads: Because you are listening to these rulings, keeping and obeying them, Adonai your G_d will keep with you the covenant and mercy that he he swore to your ancestors. But they didn't. In Deut Ch.30 Moses is appealing to them (the generation that had not rebelled and were going to see the Promised Land), to make a choice between life and death! It is all well and good having a Covenant that sets out G_d's rules, but to try and find a way round them is contempt of G_d - it is the very same reason that the exile came into being - their worship was spot on, but it was lip service, and behind it all they were trying to find ways around G_d's law. This is why I can confidently say that Paul was never in denial about the Law of God, but he was against, as was Yeshua, the Pharisees who taught oine thing but led a very different life-style. Yeshua said to do as they teach, but not to copy how they lived!

I struggle to see the relevance of the other texts from the Christian Testament, at this point

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We just see things differently then I guess. I think we see in the law a prophetic truth spoken.
16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

I also think the covenants are each distinct. And the mercy of the previous covenant promises are not added to Sinai. Rather they are not abolished despite Sinai.

Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
I think that is as far as I should go in this forum. Thanks for the exchange

QUOTE="Open Heart, post: 72674214, member: 356742"]Moses did not sit on the seat of the Pharisees, it was the other way around. To say that the Pharisees sat on the seat of Moses is to say that they taught with his authority.

A Pharisee is not just a preacher. There were many preachers who were not Pharisees, preachers who were Essenes and Sadducees. Preaching is a particular job. You can preach and preach Buddhism or Islam. John the Baptist was a preacher but I see no indication that he was a Pharisee -- if anything he seems from his asceticism that he was an Essene.

Pharisees were the descendants of the judges/elders. They were the masters of the Law -- if a ruling was needed or a question needed answering, you went to a Pharisee. They served on tribunals for when lawbreakers were brought to justice. I do not have a PhD in Jewish studies, but this is what i have learned about the beliefs and teachings of the Pharisees:

1. They were tremendous missionaries, bringing the God of Abraham to the Nations. Their primary objective was to make righteous Gentiles aka God fearers (ethical monotheists), but if someone wanted to become a Jew and take on the covenant, they did that as well.
2. They wanted Judaism to be a religion of the people, not just the Levites and the Temple. They opened synagogues for worship and study so that the Lord could become a part of a person's everyday life.
3. It was the Pharisees that opened Jewish day schools so that every Jewish boy would learn to read and write and become educated in the Torah.
4. Unlike the Sadducees who accepted only the Torah (five books of Law) the Pharisees also accepted the books of the Prophets, which meant that they expected a messianic age and a resurrection.
5. The Pharisees also accepted the case law and rulings that had come down orally from the time of Moses through the Judges. This is referred to as Oral Torah.
6. There were two main schools of Pharisees. Bet Shammai was very rigid, strict, and letter of the law; they ran the Sanhedrin during Yeshua's ministry and he got into lots of tangles with them. Bet Hillel, although orthodox, was more relaxed and tried to find ways to make it easier for people to keep the law. It can be argued that Yeshua was a Bet Hillel Pharisee.

[/QUOTE]

You totally missed what I was saying, yet I entirely agree with your opening response in saying it was the other way around, for that is what I was building my premise on.

If they sit in his seat, then look at what they (were supposed to be) doing there, i.e., Presenting Torah, and know that, that is what Môsʰé was actually doing, the reference is to those who Present Torah.

"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." [James 3:1]