SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

justbyfaith · May 14, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No one in the current discussion has EVER said that. Maybe you're referring to some other forum. Or planet.

And we know who they are; believers, from 10:9.

You just can't worm your way out of this. John 10:28 is the MOST CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD statement about eternal security in the Bible.

I'm certainly not trying to worm my way out of anything. Who wouldn't love to believe that they can go and party it up and still be eternally secure? But that is not what the Bible teaches. Those who want to believe it are the ones who are trying to worm their way out of verses that tell them they're not going to make it unless they repent. And if John 10:28 is the most clear and straightforward verse teaching eternal security, I'm afraid the concept doesn't have much of a ground to stand on.

justbyfaith · May 14, 2018

EmSw said:
Unfortunately, Jesus never said anything about forgiveness through His cross. You actually need to read up on Jesus and His earthly ministry. You need to read what He said about forgiveness. It will probably surprise you what He said about forgiveness. Jesus defines forgiveness, not Paul.

Please look up all passages which speak of forgiveness in the Gospels, and tell us what you find.

We are coming from different perspectives. You will never be able to convince me to not go by all of what the scripture teaches; just like I may never be able to convince you to accept the teachings of Paul. So it appears that we are at an impasse. Why should we continue to discuss this? Neither one of us is going to budge in our stance concerning what in the scriptures is inspired by God.

justbyfaith · May 14, 2018

EmSw said:
How do you know you are one of His sheep? You may have been planted in shallow ground.

1) My faith has been tested and tried with very great trial, persecution, and suffering.

2) His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.

3) I know that I have eternal life based on the things that John told us in his 1st epistle. I am one who abides in Christ practically all of the time, with little exception.

justbyfaith · May 14, 2018

EmSw said:
Wait no longer. Here is an OT passage which FG2 has failed to give in response to my question to him.

Ezekiel 18
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

You say you want a NT passage? Okay.

Luke 19
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Both passages speak of what happens in a believer's heart as the result of faith.

justbyfaith · May 14, 2018

EmSw said:
James 2
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It is by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Perhaps you should look up justified to see what it means. Here, I'll help you. From Strong's -

to render righteous or such he ought to be

to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Works come as the result of being thankful for the freely given forgiveness that Christ has given to the believer. Anyone who has been unconditionally forgiven (thought there is one condition and that is faith in Jesus Christ) and knows that they are going to heaven and have been delivered from hell because Jesus suffered and died for them will have a different attitude towards God and obedience to His word than someone who knows that they are headed for hell. Whoever has been forgiven much, loves much. Luke 7:36-50. And love is the primary motivation for obedience given to us in the word.

So then, if I understand that I am freely forgiven, it will produce works in my life.

Now Romans 4:5 says, But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This indicates that I am freely forgiven apart from works.

Then, when we go to James, we find that what I just spoke of, an obedience as the result of thankfulness and love for that Jesus loved us first (1 John 4:19), will not be absent in the life of one who truly understands the lengths God went to in order to redeem us; because he or she has fallen in love with the Lord and wants to serve Him with the whole heart, with a willing heart and not in any kind of obligation or attempt at earning salvation (see Psalms 110:3)

EmSw · May 14, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you know about them? The apostle Paul knew the Law WAY MORE than you ever will. And what He says about it refutes your claims.

Anybody may read the OT for themselves to see what they said. Seek and you will find if they are there or not. There is a big difference between knowing them and keeping them. Read them and tell us what you find.

Now give us an OT passages which states how they received life!

EmSw · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
We are coming from different perspectives. You will never be able to convince me to not go by all of what the scripture teaches; just like I may never be able to convince you to accept the teachings of Paul. So it appears that we are at an impasse. Why should we continue to discuss this? Neither one of us is going to budge in our stance concerning what in the scriptures is inspired by God.

I stand by the Savior; you stand by Paul. Do I have to tell you Who is the Truth?

You do accept that Paul taught differently than the Savior, right?

EmSw · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
1) My faith has been tested and tried with very great trial, persecution, and suffering.

2) His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.

3) I know that I have eternal life based on the things that John told us in his 1st epistle. I am one who abides in Christ practically all of the time, with little exception.

It seems you are telling me you are a sheep by what you do (see #3 above).

EmSw · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Now Romans 4:5 says, But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Here is where Paul disagreed with God.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Who will you believe, God or Paul?

EmSw · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Both passages speak of what happens in a believer's heart as the result of faith.

I didn't know the wicked were believers. Are you sure you want to believe what you do?

Ezekiel 18
21 But if the WICKED will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Nothing is said here of believing, but rather, what the wicked do. It is turning from all his sin, doing what is right and lawful, and in HIS righteousness that he HATH DONE, that he will live.

EmSw · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Because the parable of the sower tells us that someone can believe for a while and then fall away. Now unless you, @FreeGrace2 and @Gr8Grace want to take EmSw's line of thinking and say that we can be saved through works apart from faith, I am still waiting for verses from you that will teach us that 1) someone can believe in Jesus and not be saved, and/or 2) that one can be saved apart from faith in Jesus.

Please don't revert to lying about me. I have never said, nor implied, that a man is saved through works APART FROM FAITH. I think you are a better person than that.

FG2 has lied about me, and he has lost all my respect.

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
John 10:28 is a promise for Jesus' sheep.

It is clearly for those He gives eternal life. Regardless of any word game you might want to play. We know who He gives eternal life to, because previously in John He said whoever believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life (John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47). Well, how can believers have eternal life if it isn't given to them? And Jesus was clear about who gives it. He does.

So John 10:28 is a promise to whosoever believes in Him. It is they who are given eternal life by Jesus, and it is they (believers) who will never perish.

His sheep are defined as being those who are known by Jesus in John 10:27.

If you want to ignore lots of Scripture. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47.

Jesus NEVER KNEW those whom He identifies as WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Matthew 7:23, see also Matthew 13:41-42.

Correct. They were never believers, and as such, were never given eternal life. They WILL PERISH.

There is no getting around this. Being a worker of iniquity will exclude you from being one of Jesus' sheep and therefore a recipient of the Bible promise of John 10:28.

Being an unbeliever is what excludes anyone from receiving eternal life.

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Because the parable of the sower tells us that someone can believe for a while and then fall away. Now unless you, @FreeGrace2 and @Gr8Grace want to take @EmSw's line of thinking and say that we can be saved through works apart from faith

I don't appreciate being lied about what I think. I have NEVER said one can be saved apart from faith. So stop it. Are you just being dishonest for the fun of it?

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
So why are you trying to pit John 10:28 against verses that clearly teach that either 1) one can lose their salvation, or 2) those who are truly saved will persevere to the end in bearing good fruit?

You've got it exactly backward.

It's John 10:28 that is clearly teaching OSAS and none of your pet verses clearly or even remotely teach OSNAS.

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Okay, let's rehash the situation in which it was said. btw, it was just said again in the last few posts. i.e. your verses cannot mean what you say they mean because of what I think John 10:28 means to me.

In James 5:9 and in James 5:12, it is clearly written to believers, and both speak of possible condemnation. The response to these passages was that they cannot possibly mean what they say because if they did they would be contradicting what you think is the clear meaning of John 10:28.

But both of you are ignoring the fact that John 10:28 is a promise given to Jesus' sheep, whom Jesus knows, and that Jesus never knew those designated as workers of iniquity.

My take on it is that James is talking to people who think they are believers but may not truly be of God's elect. If they were God's elect there would be no possibility of condemnation, John 10:28 applies. But there are those who believe for a while and then fall away, these are not recipients of the promise of John 10:28, and may indeed fall into condemnation according to James 5:9 and James 5:12.

Here are the verses again:

James 5:9, Grudge not one against another, BRETHREN, LEST YE BE CONDEMNED: behold, the judge standeth at the door.

James 5:12, But above all things, MY BRETHREN, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea, and your nay, nay, LEST YE FALL INTO CONDEMNATION.

The answer was that condemnation doesn't really mean condemnation (i.e. hell and then the lake of fire) because you think John 10:28 trumps these verses. But again, John 10:28 is a promise given to Jesus' true sheep, or God's elect, or those who are saved from the perspective of eternity (not those who believe for a while and then fall away). Condemnation is possible for those who might be called BRETHREN, those who believe but for whom their faith will not last, it will not endure the test or trial of genuine faith (see 1 Peter 1:6-7).

The problem I see here is your conflating and co-mixing verses from different contexts in order to wriggle out of the clear meaning of John 10:28.

Let's just admit the fact that you don't like what that verse says, so you've tried to find ways to make it say something totally different.

But here is what it says, and what you cannot prove otherwise:
Jesus gives eternal life to believers, and they shall never perish.

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
John 10:28 is for believers, all of whom do commit sin.

justbyfaith said:
That is basically a lie from the pit of hell.

Nonsense. The Bible doesn't teach that anyone can reach a state of sinless perfection this side of eternity.

Yes, John 10:28 is for believers, Jesus' sheep, but as a general rule Jesus' sheep do not commit sin.

What in the world are you talking about? What kind of cool-aid have you been drinking?

"as a general rule"??? Seriously. Then why so many commands about being obedient, staying true to the faith, to be holy and blameless if that were true?

But you haven't answered this question because you can't.

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I'm certainly not trying to worm my way out of anything. Who wouldn't love to believe that they can go and party it up and still be eternally secure?

You see? This is exactly your problem, and the problem of all who embrace OSNAS. They simply want everyone who does misbehave to be punished for eternity. No grace in your view.

Y'all talk about OSAS teaching a "license to sin" nonsense. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Paul wrote this: Gal 5:13 - You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

So, you see, we already have the freedom to sin. We don't need no stinkin' license.

But, rather than use our freedom to sin, we are to use our freedom to serve one another humbly in love.

But that is not what the Bible teaches. Those who want to believe it are the ones who are trying to worm their way out of verses that tell them they're not going to make it unless they repent.

I will remind you EVERY time: there are NO SUCH verses. Zero.

And if John 10:28 is the most clear and straightforward verse teaching eternal security, I'm afraid the concept doesn't have much of a ground to stand on.

Are you really that inept at understanding such clear language?

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

EmSw said:
I stand by the Savior

Really? And upon what basis is He your Savior?

What did He do to save you, specifically? Do you have any idea?

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

EmSw said:
Here is where Paul disagreed with God.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Who will you believe, God or Paul?

Yep. Atheists just love to try to pit Scripture against itself.

busted.

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2018

EmSw said:
FG2 has lied about me, and he has lost all my respect.

Those who mock the sacrifice of the Savior and disrespect writers of Scripture earn no respect.

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

justified sinner

justified sinner

justified sinner

justified sinner

justified sinner

White Horse Rider

White Horse Rider

White Horse Rider

White Horse Rider

White Horse Rider

White Horse Rider

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Similar threads