Paul preached easy believism

EternallyKeptByJesus said:

And Joseph Prince is a great preacher of the Gospel of Jesus.

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Micah888 said:

This is not really true. Christians should carefully examine how Joseph Prince takes verses out of context and then inserts his eisegis to produce his Hyper Grace gospel. He also adheres to Word of Faith teaching.

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expos4ever said:

I believe I do understand it.

Old Covenant:

1. As part of God's grand plan for redeeming humanity and reversing the Edenic curse, God set aside a special people - the Jews.

2. What set the Jews apart from the rest of the world was the Law of Moses. It was given to Jews and Jews only. No Gentile is to follow the Law of Moses.

3. The Law of Moses contains the 10 commandments, among lots of other stuff.

4. Does this mean that it's OK for a Gentile to murder someone? I should not have to answer that question. Of course not.

5. Nowhere in the Old Testament is a "moral" component of the Law of Moses identified; this idea of a "moral law" within the Law of Moses is an invention used to defend a shaky theology.

New Covenant:

1. Israel's special role has come to an end through the work of Jesus on the cross - the cross is organically connected to the story of Israel; they are both part of one redemption narrative.

2. The Law of Moses - whose primary role was to mark out the Jew as a special people - is no longer needed since Israel has fulfilled its role in the grand redemption narrative.

3. The Law of Moses is therefore abolished (set aside, retired). This is clear from many Pauline texts as well as from the actions of Jesus.

4. The believer is given the Holy Spirit for moral guidance - the Law is no longer needed. How much more clear could Paul be than this: But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that to which we were bound, so that we serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

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expos4ever said:

Hello God’s Grace:

Are you saying that the Torah - the Law of Moses - has three components: civil, moral, ceremonial?

I don’t think scripture offers these distinctions.

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expos4ever said:

Well, I believe it's not that simple. Look at what Paul writes here in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

A rather clear statement that "good works" do indeed matter.

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So Paul certainly does not preach "easy believism".

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Yes, we are saved by faith. But based on what Paul says here, and elsewhere for that matter, if there are no "good works", then the faith is not real.

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expos4ever said:

Well, I believe it's not that simple. Look at what Paul writes here in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

A rather clear statement that "good works" do indeed matter.

So Paul certainly does not preach "easy believism".

Yes, we are saved by faith. But based on what Paul says here, and elsewhere for that matter, if there are no "good works", then the faith is not real.

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sunlover1 said:

I believe that HYPER Grace is exactly what God is about.
He isn't trying to keep people from Himself.
He created us, for HIs glory, He's all Love and all goodness.
He desires that all men be saved, and He's so patient!

Not enough that we live in a world of narcissism (see social
media), where people don't love on each other because they're
so filled with pride and division, but we also have the devil
whispering into our ears, telling us how BAD we are, how we're
not "good" enough, how we should just give up, end it all, etc.

We NEED someone to PUSH the message of grace into our spirits.

I'm so thankful that God did this for me.
When I was first acquainted with the Bible in my own hands, around
the age of 18, I was so amazed by the message of Grace, that I
learned such love for and from my Father that I'll always be able
to tell others that yes, God really does adore you, EVEN when
you're a total sinner.

IMO

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GodsGrace101 said:

Hi SL
I used to watch JP. I liked how he taught; he's very good at teaching. He also does repeat many times that God's grace should not bring us into a life of sin.

Hyper Grace just means that we go beyond the grace that God has for us and turn it into something it is not.

It is NOT a license to sin. You may understand this, but many don't and hyper grace does tend to bring to this because one never hears that not only does God love us, but He also expects us to obey Him and follow Him.

This is why John, the beloved apostle, wrote 1 John 1 and 2.

Everyone needs a different message to be able to respond to God's call. As long as one understands that the commandments are still in force, all messages, within the gospel, could be accepted.

I do hear many times that we no longer have to obey God's commandments.

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sunlover1 said:

HI! Are you the same GG that was here from about 16 years ago (or more! lol)
If so hi!!! Long time!!!
if not, good to meet ya! *wave
Wow, thank God i've never heard such crazy things!
Where I live it's quite the opposite.. we have a lot of churches
preaching laws/rules religion over relationship etc.
I have heard that the rest of the country is pretty out there!
I agree, JP always adds the caveat that God isn't giving
license to sin.
He seems to be a genuine man after God's own heart!

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GodsGrace101 said:

I'm a different GG. Only been on forums about 3 years.
So, yeah, nice to meet ya!


I'm all for following God's commandments. Some churches add their own rules and I'm not sure I'd agree, but I'm really not familiar with any besides those of the catholic church since that's the church I grew up in.

I must say that it's pretty impossible to obey Jesus UNLESS you have a relationship with Him. It's kind of like being married...if you love your husband, you'll obey him to make him happy...if you don't love him, you don't care if he's happy or not. We obey God because we love Him and to make Him happy.

And, yes, on these very threads, read carefully and you'll read that some say we are not required to keep the commandments.
(to the best of our ability, of course).

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MDC said:

Saying obedience to Gods commands somehow attains and maintains salvation is false. This is what you promote. You promote this because if not, one can lose eternal life in Christ. But to say the result or fruit of being saved is obedience to Christ and His commands, is the biblical truth. All of God’s grace and completely secure in Christ through faith. See the later glorifies God in Christ in all of salvation. The former lifts up man as the savior of himself through works

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GodsGrace101 said:

Well MDC, calvinists are always concerned about man glorifying man instead of glorifying God. You really think God needs YOU to glorify Him??? He was glorified way before you were born and way before Calvin was born.

Any born again believer that loves God knows what a nothing he is except for the love of God who lifts him up and puts His very own spirit into Him.
I'll only post John 11:40-44
The bible is chock full of verses about God's glory.

This is what you said above:
But to say the result or fruit of being saved is obedience to Christ and His commands, is the biblical truth.

So what's the difference between what you say and what I say?
We both believe we are to obey God's commands.

Of course, I believe in free will, so I can easily say that if I stop believing in God and/or return to a life of sin, I CAN lose my salvation. And I will KNOW it because it's my CHOICE. You, OTOH, cannot know for sure whether you are in regeneration or not.

Here are some quotes by Luther and Calvin:

Luther:

Luther believed that regeneration occurred through the waters of baptism. "But," noted the Reformer, "all of us do not remain with our baptism. Many fall away from Christ and become false Christians." [21] In his commentary on 2 Pet 2:22 he writes as follows on apostates in the Church: "Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief and their own works, and they soil themselves again in filth." [22]

One who has experienced the justifying grace of God through faith can lose that justification through unbelief or false confidence in works. "Indeed,
even the righteous man," writes Luther in his comments on Gal 5:4, "if he presumes to be justified by those works, loses the righteousness he has and falls from the grace by which he had been justified, since he has been removed from a good land to one that is barren." [23]


Calvin

While regeneration is irreversible and leads to final perseverance, in the visible Church it is not humanly possible to infallibly distinguish the truly regenerate from those who are not. Even the reprobate, writes Calvin in his commentary on Heb 6:4, may "enjoy some taste of his grace." The Spirit can produce some initial stirring "even in the reprobate, which afterwards vanishes away, either because it did not strike roots sufficiently deep, or because it withers, being choked up." [33] A person may experience feelings of remorse for sin, make a public profession of faith, and yet not be truly regenerate, according to Calvin. Such temporary faith is not to be confused with the genuine saving faith that endures to eternal life.

Even though Calvin believes that regeneration is irreversible and that the believer can have assurance of his own election and final perseverance, he does not conclude that the Christian has any cause for spiritual complacency. Persevering in God's grace requires, on the human side, "severe and arduous effort." [34] From our human perspective the Christian's circumstances are very uncertain, and the believer at times can feel that his life "hangs only by a thread, and is encompassed by a thousand deaths." [35] The believer needs to continually feed his soul on the preaching of the Word and to grow in faith throughout the whole course of life. [36] Since it is easy for the believer to fall away for a time from the grace of God, there is constant need for "striving and vigilance, if we would persevere in the grace of God." [37]

Calvin thus balances his theological certitudes with pastoral warnings. At the pastoral level, Calvin's position does not greatly differ from that of Luther's or the earlier Catholic tradition. The believer must continually exercise faith and obedience to make "his calling and election sure."

Source: The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine by John Jefferson Davis (1991 JETS)

Points:

Luther:
1. We can fall away from our faith,,,which is Christ.
2. Luther comments on 2 Peter 2:22 saying that, indeed, they had fallen away again.

Loss of salvation is possible according to Luther.


Calvin:
1. It is not possible to know who is regenerate (saved) or not.
2. The Spirit can produce some initial stirring in the reprobate
which will then fade away.
3. A person may have feelings of remorse, make a public confession, and yet not truly be regenerate.
4. This is temporary faith. (How is one to know if HIS faith is temporary!)
5. The believer can have assurance of his own election...but how?? How does he know it will continue day after day if the CHOICE is not of the believer!
6. Severe and arduous effort is to be made. (sounds like works)
7. The christians circumstances are uncertain.
8. It is easy for the believer to fall away for a time from the grace of God.
9. The believer must strive and be vigilant.

The above sounds like a lot of work and uncertainty.
I, OTOH, trust wholly on Jesus of my own FREE WILL and know that I am saved because I CHOOSE to love Him and follow Him and persevere in His love.

Calvin got it all wrong...

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MDC said:

What you falsely name Calvinism or what pertains to the doctrines of grace is biblical truth. I see your golden calf of free will is always elevated to justify your man exalting doctrine of losing salvation. This does not glorify Christ! You deny that it’s all of grace by your humanistic teaching of the autonomy of the will. You cannot give Christ all the glory in salvation simply because you haven’t come to see your own wretched sinful self and your inability to please God. You never left the RCC. Your understanding of justification is that still of Rome. You are still a papist like all free willers are. Christ will lose none of His sheep! If a professor in Christ falls away as you say, to never return in repentance, then that person proves he was never among the elect of God. Christ is sufficient and provides all that is necessary for a believer to endure

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GodsGrace101 said:

I didn't scold you.
I posted stuff.
Why don't YOU do the same?

Of course you don't believe in justification...
You're one of the lucky ones God chose for heaven...
Too bad for all those poor souls who, through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, are going straight to hell when they die because GOD so determines it.

So where is the God of LOVE we're supposed to be serving?
Nowhere to be found in Calvinism.

Christ is glorified every time I do something in His name.
John 11:40 Jesus tells Martha: "Did I not say to you, if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"

God is glorified when we believe in Him. WE do not have the glory of God. This is nonsense teaching.

BTW, JESUS said,,,IF YOU BELIEVE...
IF you BELIEVE,,,
does that speak of free will?
YES IT DOES.
It means we are FREE to believe or not to believe.

I'll show you many places in the bible, Old and New testament that shows we have free will.

Can you show me one place where it says we do NOT have free will?

Thanks.

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GodsGrace101 said:

I'm a different GG. Only been on forums about 3 years.
So, yeah, nice to meet ya!


I'm all for following God's commandments. Some churches add their own rules and I'm not sure I'd agree, but I'm really not familiar with any besides those of the catholic church since that's the church I grew up in.

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I must say that it's pretty impossible to obey Jesus UNLESS you have a relationship with Him. It's kind of like being married...if you love your husband, you'll obey him to make him happy...if you don't love him, you don't care if he's happy or not. We obey God because we love Him and to make Him happy.

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And, yes, on these very threads, read carefully and you'll read that some say we are not required to keep the commandments.
(to the best of our ability, of course).

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The Times said:

The new man old man context hermetically doesn't fit the narrative you want to impose upon it.

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Bobber said:

Times I've been busy the last couple of days but did some study on your answer of my use of Galatians 5. I've concluded you're correct. I had misapplied that passage having studied from other sources as well I see my mistake. I've asked the Lord to forgive me for not understanding that one particular passage correctly. I do however still believe that our old man died the death of the Cross but can come alive most certainly right away if we choose to walk in the flesh and yes it is a life long decision each and every day to Walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Thanks for sharing what you did. Very informative!

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MDC said:

Lol lucky ones?! No fault of their own? These comments alone prove my point. The problem with free will sovereignty is that you believe God owes you mercy! Sorry, but all man is owed is judgement and Gods wrath

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sunlover1 said:

So did I



Im not sure.
it's all kind of hard to figure.. motives, impetus...
was in a super bad even dangerous marriage.. yet loved and submitted
because i wanted to please God. (THOUGHT it pleased Him.. we can
believe the wrong things please God.
I believe that once we're born again we have a new nature,
not a duo nature.
I believe that while our flesh is not saved, we 'choose' to
deny it, and only with the power of the Spirit, at that.


Oh you meant HERE.. LOL
oh yeah,, thousands of members,
thousands of us armchair theologians
and some really goofed up messages!
I'm sure i have some things way off,
but watching the Father change us from
glory to glory is incredible!
Woooot!
Well i was gone about 3 or 4 . years.
So might stay around for a bit now if
i have time.
I see you enjoy it here.
Have fun GG!

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GodsGrace101 said:

It's an active forum, I'm liking it right now.
I'm not willing to debate everything under the sun, I believe we're all brothers in Christ.

For instance, I DO believe we still have the sin nature within us but it is subdued by the Holy Spirit and it no longer has power to enslave us. But I won't spend time debating this because it has nothing to do with our salvation.

Yeah. Stick around!

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