Justifying Tithing without Abraham

sunlover1

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They were still under the Mosaic law, and would continue to be under the Mosaic law until the new covenant had been consecrated by the blood of Jesus.
oh, well then, there's that
lol.
(thank you)!!!
 
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LoveofTruth

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For those who believe in the modern concept of the 10% tithe on your entire income, can you support your belief Biblically without Abraham or Jacob.

Why this premise. Simple, Abraham did not tithe on income, he tithed the spoils of war and to further press that issue is that Abraham stated he would not take once penny of any of the spoils of war. Therefore, Abraham had not income at all in that situation. So how could anyone use that for the modern concept of tithing?

Jacob told God I will tithe only if you bless me. Wow, many modern day tithers would flip out if you put that test to God. According to modern day tithers we are suppose to give 10% no matter what, even if you can't pay your bills. That is not what Jacob said. Jacob said if you bless me I will tithe and if not forget you God.

So without Abraham and Jacob how can those who believe in tithing justify that tithing is not a part of the law without these two.

If this has been dealth with I apologize. But I am truely interested if there is a way to justify a 10% tithe without these two people because I just can't see how they can be used for the concept of a pre-law notion of tithing.
Here's a good verse against tithing Hebrews 7:5 only the Levites have a commandment to take tithes of their brethren according to the law. But we also know in that chapter the priesthood and law were changed.

"5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham::(Hebrews 7:5 KJV)

So those today who say they can take tithes , first of all are not under the law or levites or have any commandment to do so. They make the commandments of men that turn from the truth.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Here's a good verse against tithing Hebrews 7:5 only the Levites have a commandment to take tithes of their brethren according to the law. But we also know in that chapter the priesthood and law were changed.

"5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham::(Hebrews 7:5 KJV)

So those today who say they can take tithes , first of all are not under the law or levites or have any commandment to do so. They make the commandments of men that turn from the truth.

Most I have ever encountered who teach the requirement to tithe draw that requirement from a surgically removed "concept" from the O.T. text, concerning Abraham, for tithing. I say "surgically" removed because Israel, at no time throughout her history, mirrored what Abraham did in the giving of a tenth of the spoils of war, so they had to cut everything out from around that one act of handing over a tenth of the spoils of war in order to make it sound like a more noble support for their false teaching.

They also have to totally ignore what Abraham did NOT do, which is to journey back up into northern Canaan to collect a tenth of all his own personal wealth, bring it back to Sodom, and hand that over to Melchizedek as well. This is exemplary of the closed-mindedness that characterizes the generally unthinking mind.

Abraham also made it clear WHY he had returned to Sodom, which was not ONLY to return Lot to his home, but also to return property he knew was never his to begin with. Oh, yes, people argue that the spoils of war "always" belong to the victor in those days.....never mind that those people have never really studied the customs of those days. Instead, they have in mind what they saw in movies where Conan kept the spoils from his conquests, as did the European kings and such.

This soiling of the character of Abraham that they seem to have no problem perpetrating against a man they have never met is a sad thing to behold. He made it clear his initial intention (before ever even meeting Melchizedek) when he told the king of Sodom that he would not allow that king to claim he had made Abraham rich. Abraham was a man who gave glory to the Lord for prospering only from what the Lord blessed him with through the sweat of his own brow, not through the blood of conquest.

What a tragic and shameful system of thought churchianity has devised against those who support it all. The false teachings are nothing more than an example of the ethic that says, "The end justifies the means." This is reflective of a system of morals and ethics that are not at all representative of Christ Jesus.....at least not the real one of whom we read about in the scriptures. Roman catholicism has its false teachings about the tithe, mormons have theirs, SDA has theirs, charismatics have theirs, southern baptists have theirs, et al. Some of churchianity does not teach the falsehoods of a tithe requirement. They deserve credit, but all the multitudes of others, whether it be forceful or not in teaching style, they are the purveyors of the doctrines of demons.

Jr
 
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SwordmanJr

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Hmm, i don't tithe according to Abraham, but interesting thread.
I tithe because I love to give back to God.
The tithe money or offering money or whatever you want to call it
is such a blessing to the Lord and the Body of Christ!
Paul talks about it at length in 2 Corinthians 9 or 10 and if you read that
while under the influence of God's Spirit, it will make you want to give
90% and keep 10 lol.
Nothing wrong with giving or tithing or blessing or offerings .. ever.
That widow gave her little mite and Jesus made a big deal out of that.
What the heck? Wooot!
We think backwards too much lol

How does one equate what they hand over to any church organization, of which they are a member, to "giving to God"? How is it EVER "giving" when the "giver" personally benefits from what he or she or it gives?

Do any of us gain access to buildings with air conditioning/heating when we hand over money to the hungry beggar on the street corner? Are we not to actually FIRST give to the Lord by handing out a full tenth+ of our income to those in need? After all, Jesus said that what we do unto the least, we do unto Him.

The vast majority of professing believers DON'T do that because they are selfish. They would rather hand over the largest portion of their "giving" to something from which they personally benefit, which isn't "giving" at all! It's paying one's dues for membership!

We're supposed to operate on the basis of TRUTH and HONESTY, not "The end justifies the means." So, let's be honest, shall we? Claiming that contributing to the needs of a facility and its programs is supporting a LUXURY, not a NECESSITY. Let's see things as they really are. A spade is a spade. The poor need food and clothing as a NECESSITY. We don't need communal facilities as a NECESSITY. They are a LUXURY. Buildings do not honor God. WE honor God by way of our obedience, and by doing unto others as we would have them do unto us.

We are called to LOVE our neighbors, not walk past them with the indifference of handing over the largest portion of our "giving" to support the luxuries of our communal facilities and the salaries of their professional staffing. Why don't we stop playing this game of term-switching, and see it all for what it really is in light of the word of God?

We all have the right to possess communal facilities. I'm not here to take that from anyone. However, this game of falsehoods masked behind the benevolent sounding platitudes of it allegedly being a matter of "giving to God" what we directly benefit, that is nothing more than self-delusion. Institutional church organizations have a long history of reversing the Lord's priorities, and the masses blindly following along, pouring TRILLIONS into buildings, stained glass, pipe organs, carpeting, chandeliers, lawn care, parking lots, et al. It's amazing how effectively tradition blinds the eyes of otherwise loving people who desire to live their lives with integrity. Traditions make liars of all those who blindly fall headlong into them.

Jr
 
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For months I have been disturb over the subject of tithing.
I am more than willing to tithe. If ever I miss even a small amount I am so remorseful. I love God and it hurts me and I don't understand when Christians justify their not giving to him.
I can only think that they just want to spend the money and not give to God. All kinds of excuses the most being used is it is not in the NT.
I am fearful for them because what if God decided to stop giving to them? Everything I have is from God. How dare I refuse anything to God?
At the same time I do understand when you have very little. For most of my life I couldn't tithe. So now that it is easy for me I try to make up for what I missed.
I do tithe to a church because I give in Gods name and trust that he sees to it that it is an honorable gift from me. He knows my intentions are worthy.
 
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SwordmanJr

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For months I have been disturb over the subject of tithing.
I am more than willing to tithe. If ever I miss even a small amount I am so remorseful. I love God and it hurts me and I don't understand when Christians justify their not giving to him.

That's the crux of all this, isn't it. Tradition says that handing over to some church organization is how one "gives to God." I've been looking a long time for someone to explain to me how it's better to hand over their "giving" to something from which they benefit, and yet give to the needy at a much lower level of monetary giving. After all, most people want to benefit from their own "giving," which is nothing but them lying to themselves, and being lied to by their "leadership."

I can only think that they just want to spend the money and not give to God.

When we give a glass of water to a thirsting child, we give unto God. When we live by obedience to the Law God has written in our hearts, we are giving to Him. Giving is a multi-faceted jewel of great value. The fact that so many people hammer and hammer on "tithes" under this New Covenant, they are no better than the Judaisers Paul scolded for their legalistic warps and twists to God's word.

If one wants to give faithfully, then give to God by meeting the needs of PEOPLE who are truly in need. THAT is giving to God. That passing plate should be a lower priority in our giving than to lovingly meeting the needs of others in need so that they too can give thanks and glory to God for the provision the Lord sent their way through faithful givers. Where is the faithfulness in giving the primary, largest portion of our giving to what we directly benefit?

All kinds of excuses the most being used is it is not in the NT.

Oh, but it is in the NT. Jesus addressed it to the pharisees who were at that time still under the Law of Moses. Consider how many ignorant people who claim to follow Christ Jesus today never go into the word of God to see how the God of our salvation defined the tithe. So many convey lies and more lies bout the tithe. Few of them ever talk about how the tithe NEVER had anything to do with monetary wages of wage earners like you and me. Not even CARPENTERS (knock on wood) were required to hand anything over to the Levites, nor fishermen (knock on a fish), cobblers, clothiers, or any other tradesman or craftsman.

Instead, modern religion here in the West teaches the historic lies from the RCC about tithing.

I am fearful for them because what if God decided to stop giving to them? Everything I have is from God. How dare I refuse anything to God?

This is the usual fare of emotional argumentation that has no Spirit of Truth behind it. Folks, read the word of God and stop listening to these lies from false teachers. Giving is indeed admirable and good, but religious teachings from institutional churches has people handing over to them what should go for the meeting of needs first and foremost.

At the same time I do understand when you have very little. For most of my life I couldn't tithe. So now that it is easy for me I try to make up for what I missed.
I do tithe to a church because I give in Gods name and trust that he sees to it that it is an honorable gift from me. He knows my intentions are worthy.

Folks, trying to shuck personal responsibility in how you give can never be transferred over to someone else just because they have a theological degree from some cemetery school of theology.

Take responsibility for what you choose to believe, and teach others what's actually written in God's word rather than the lies and deceptions from pulpits, Sunday school classes, TV preaching liars, lying books and lying magazines. Your Bible, reading it for what it says, is your best bet, and also listening to Holy Spirit, like is written in 1 John 2:27.

Jr
 
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tturt

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Yeshua watched the offering plate and noticed who gave and how much. Then He remarked "For they all put in from their abundance, but she from her need has put in everything she had - all she had to live on.” (Mark 12:44). Seems like Yeshua would have taken the opportunity to tell His disciples that soon tithes/offerings/giving wouldnt need be given if that was going to be the case. Or do we think He let the poor widow put in everything she had without blessing her as promised in Mal 3:10?
 
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returntosender

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That's the crux of all this, isn't it. Tradition says that handing over to some church organization is how one "gives to God." I've been looking a long time for someone to explain to me how it's better to hand over their "giving" to something from which they benefit, and yet give to the needy at a much lower level of monetary giving. After all, most people want to benefit from their own "giving," which is nothing but them lying to themselves, and being lied to by their "leadership."



When we give a glass of water to a thirsting child, we give unto God. When we live by obedience to the Law God has written in our hearts, we are giving to Him. Giving is a multi-faceted jewel of great value. The fact that so many people hammer and hammer on "tithes" under this New Covenant, they are no better than the Judaisers Paul scolded for their legalistic warps and twists to God's word.

If one wants to give faithfully, then give to God by meeting the needs of PEOPLE who are truly in need. THAT is giving to God. That passing plate should be a lower priority in our giving than to lovingly meeting the needs of others in need so that they too can give thanks and glory to God for the provision the Lord sent their way through faithful givers. Where is the faithfulness in giving the primary, largest portion of our giving to what we directly benefit?



Oh, but it is in the NT. Jesus addressed it to the pharisees who were at that time still under the Law of Moses. Consider how many ignorant people who claim to follow Christ Jesus today never go into the word of God to see how the God of our salvation defined the tithe. So many convey lies and more lies bout the tithe. Few of them ever talk about how the tithe NEVER had anything to do with monetary wages of wage earners like you and me. Not even CARPENTERS (knock on wood) were required to hand anything over to the Levites, nor fishermen (knock on a fish), cobblers, clothiers, or any other tradesman or craftsman.

Instead, modern religion here in the West teaches the historic lies from the RCC about tithing.



This is the usual fare of emotional argumentation that has no Spirit of Truth behind it. Folks, read the word of God and stop listening to these lies from false teachers. Giving is indeed admirable and good, but religious teachings from institutional churches has people handing over to them what should go for the meeting of needs first and foremost.



Folks, trying to shuck personal responsibility in how you give can never be transferred over to someone else just because they have a theological degree from some cemetery school of theology.

Take responsibility for what you choose to believe, and teach others what's actually written in God's word rather than the lies and deceptions from pulpits, Sunday school classes, TV preaching liars, lying books and lying magazines. Your Bible, reading it for what it says, is your best bet, and also listening to Holy Spirit, like is written in 1 John 2:27.

Jr
Your post is too long for me to read but I got the gist of it.
There is another word for what you are calling tithe. Maybe it is offerings or alms?
I disagree as for me I give to the church and usually fairly big ones because I want them to be able to spread Gods word to the world and that takes money. The little churches aren't able to do that. No matter what my actions are as long as I do it with good intent God will see to it that it is a blessing. I leave it up to him After all, it is his money. I feel like if it isn't to his liking he will let me know some way. There was a church that I always tithed to for years and then came a day that no matter what I did I could not tithe. I tried every way to no avail so I moved on but I still love the minister dearly. I feel like who I was directed to tithe with after that must need it more.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Yeshua watched the offering plate and noticed who gave and how much. Then He remarked "For they all put in from their abundance, but she from her need has put in everything she had - all she had to live on.” (Mark 12:44). Seems like Yeshua would have taken the opportunity to tell His disciples that soon tithes/offerings/giving wouldnt need be given if that was going to be the case. Or do we think He let the poor widow put in everything she had without blessing her as promised in Mal 3:10?

If we look at Malachi, he addressed precisely the tithe, which that widow was not required to hand over to the Levites unless she owned producing crops and livestock. I suspect she had none of those things, and was therefore not required to tithe.

Folks, please read the scriptures. The tithe was a very specific requirement upon a very specific group of people, primarily farmers and ranchers, not the rest of the people who lived in cities and elsewhere, and who possessed nothing that produced for them of the things defined in the Law, and of the quantities.

A man who had a small herd that produced only nine calves in a year was not required to hand over a tithe to the Levites. He was only required to tithe one of the ten calves, or one of the 19 calves, or two of the 20, or two of the 29. That was God's Law upon them.

Confusing the tithe with giving as demonstrated by the early Church is two entirely different things. The Levitical priesthood no longer exists, and only the Levites were authorized by God to collect the tithes. Giving in the NT, when we read the scriptures for what they say, was strictly for the meeting of needs first and foremost, not for the support of luxuries like communal buildings, air conditioning and heating, lawn care, chandeliers, carpeting, parking lots, steeples, etc. We here in the West have a very warped understanding of priorities. We place the luxuries of buildings and professional staffing above the needs of people as the higher priorities.

So, Jesus was commenting on the proportions of what she gave in relation to many others. He was looking at her heart, and the love for God she had for meeting the needs of people. THAT is giving to God. THAT is what that collection was for. If the pharisees were secretly enriching themselves from that treasure being given to meet needs, the Lord did or will deal with those men in His own time.

Jr
 
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SwordmanJr

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Your post is too long for me to read but I got the gist of it.
There is another word for what you are calling tithe. Maybe it is offerings or alms?

Please understand what I'm saying in that, words mean things, and when we use the term "tithe," we're addressing a very specific system and items as defined within that system. In this modern age of applying whatever word to something that feels good to us, that only leads to confusion and disingenuous dealings with the concepts and absolutes of God's word.

I disagree as for me I give to the church and usually fairly big ones because I want them to be able to spread Gods word to the world and that takes money.

Big, as in the size of the building? How does that building spread God's word? Is it not WE who should be spreading the word of God? Look, I'm not saying it's wrong to possess the luxury of a communal facility, no matter how large, but when the largest portion of our giving is handed over for the support of hay, wood, stone and stubble while the needs of fellow believers and those in the local community go unmet for the sake of something that's going to burn with this earth, we are NOT following the example of the first century Church of the apostles, and our message is utterly corrupt.

The little churches aren't able to do that. No matter what my actions are as long as I do it with good intent God will see to it that it is a blessing.

God also has laid upon us the responsibility for first and fore most meeting each other's needs above all else, as is exemplified in the scriptures. Why? Simply stated, when a family in need has clean water to drink, food in their stomachs, shelter over their heads, they are then freed to live and function for the Lord as well as the rest of us. Anyone who has read the NT will see that they met needs first with the collections. They didn't go out and buy materials to erect a communal facility as an alleged spreading of God's word. It is PEOPLE who spread God's word, not dead buildings. We can spread the word of God without any ties to our building.

I leave it up to him After all, it is his money.

He already owns cattle on a thousand hills, and to my knowledge, nobody has rustled them to the point that the Lord needs us to hand over to Him what's in our pockets. Yes. He owns it all, whether it's in your pockets, mine, everyone else. The point is, you are trying to defend passing on to God your own personal responsibility for proper giving. We are more faithful to God and His will for giving when we hand over the primary portion of our giving to those in need before we support dead buildings and all their visual appeal. To say otherwise is not supporting God and His work. God's work is PEOPLE, not THINGS.

I feel like if it isn't to his liking he will let me know some way.

Really? What if He says to you, "I showed you in that Bible, which you read only with blinders on, what I wanted you to do, and instead you tried to put your responsibility on ME by listening to those false teaching men and their silky tongues to pour your resources into dead things before ever thinking to meet the needs of that suffering family down the street or across town."

In a congregation of thousands, or twenty, what do you think is more effective; having one guy standing there preaching to the few unbelievers who come in occasionally, or those people themselves ministering Christ to the world around them wherever they are out in the culture where that one man behind the pulpit can reach, and meeting needs in far greater ways than any one man-made organization?

Only the mathematically challenged do not get the following in what is more effective:

10,000 people who hand over to the needy 80% to the needy of what they have available for giving, AND ministering Christ to thousands of people each week, or

10,000 people who hand over all their giving to an institution that absorbs 80% of what they give for its own expenditures and staffing, reaching only the small hand full of potentially new converts who drift in each week, and not doing much discipling at all apart from Sunday School classes once a week after the people handed over to one man and his staff that responsibility.

You know, this vicarious nonsense we've adopted here in the west in the place of actually living spiritual lives governed and empowere by Holy Spirit, we really are in sad shape in America, just like the Chinese believers have been saying for decades now. People get their warm fuzzies in hiring others to do what they themselves should be doing, giving into something from which they reap direct benefit. That's not "giving" in its true meaning. That's paying one's dues for a membership, leaving God to go out and find others who will do His will in the place of all those people sitting in their dead, multi-million dollar building they think will bring others to Christ for them.

Jr
 
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tturt

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"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Mal 3:10

The only time God said prove Me in Scripture.

Name one area in our lives that's not to be submiited to the Lord
 
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Very large congregations take very large churches. They all have various charities and resources for those things we cannot reach. So many obligations to fill. Any church that I give to allow access to their attempts to help those who need it besides witnessing to thousands. If it wasn't for TBN many countries would have no resources to seek God or even know of him. They mostly have food banks for those in need. And that includes clothes and daily meals, the list goes on. You don't have to justify with me why you don't tithe but you do have to with God. I don't know how you deal with conscience it would hound me every minute of the day.
All in all I trust where I tithe to spend the money wisely toward what God expects of them. If I find out they don't I move on. There is plenty of need out there and the church usually knows who and where that is.
Of course we are to help those in need and witness where ever it is needed but what has that got to do with tithing?
 
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ForHimbyHim

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"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Mal 3:10

The only time God said prove Me in Scripture.

Name one area in our lives that's not to be submiited to the Lord
The tithe was based on produce of the land, not sheckles and you were supposed to bring it to the temple. How do we deal with the temple and produce of the land for those living in apartments?
 
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ForHimbyHim

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Very large congregations take very large churches. They all have various charities and resources for those things we cannot reach. So many obligations to fill. Any church that I give to allow access to their attempts to help those who need it besides witnessing to thousands. If it wasn't for TBN many countries would have no resources to seek God or even know of him. They mostly have food banks for those in need. And that includes clothes and daily meals, the list goes on. You don't have to justify with me why you don't tithe but you do have to with God. I don't know how you deal with conscience it would hound me every minute of the day.
All in all I trust where I tithe to spend the money wisely toward what God expects of them. If I find out they don't I move on. There is plenty of need out there and the church usually knows who and where that is.
Of course we are to help those in need and witness where ever we it is needed but what has that got to do with tithing?
Do you also fulfil the rest of the law beside tithing?
 
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That is my purpose, Isn't it all Christians? Aren't we all to try to follow all of Gods teachings.There are many things that are not possible for the times but there are many that are. In all seriousness I personally can't justify not giving to God. I wonder what we would do without support to the churches as they would be no more.
 
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SwordmanJr

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"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Mal 3:10

The only time God said prove Me in Scripture.

The issue is not submitting everything to God, but rather about the alleged requirement to tithe to church organizations. That is the difference.

Jr
 
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I think people are just stingy and will find a world of reasons to not give to God. Maybe they don't realize that all they have is from God.
All that God has given to them and they don't give back? I hope they don't find out the hard way that to give is....No more rewards for you, stingy! Isn't giving all through the bible? What do you give to God to keep his word going?
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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If a person even has a church, then it implies that they are willing to give a little of their time each week. They are willing to give of their voices in song, without complaint. They give their ears to the sermon, without excuse. All of these gifts are inexpensive, but not expressly required by the New Testament. When it comes to money, that's another beast. You can see where their priorities lie. You cannot serve both God and mammon.

It's true that the Bible doesn't specifically require it, but then, a gift from the heart does not need to be required, and a requirement would only spoil it. God has freely given to us, and we freely give in return as an act of worship. Those who would worship, do. Those who wouldn't worship, don't.
 
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LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
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For months I have been disturb over the subject of tithing.
I am more than willing to tithe. If ever I miss even a small amount I am so remorseful. I love God and it hurts me and I don't understand when Christians justify their not giving to him.
I can only think that they just want to spend the money and not give to God. All kinds of excuses the most being used is it is not in the NT.
I am fearful for them because what if God decided to stop giving to them? Everything I have is from God. How dare I refuse anything to God?
At the same time I do understand when you have very little. For most of my life I couldn't tithe. So now that it is easy for me I try to make up for what I missed.
I do tithe to a church because I give in Gods name and trust that he sees to it that it is an honorable gift from me. He knows my intentions are worthy.
Tithing was for Israel and not for the Gentile church today and only the Levite’s had the commandment to take tithes according to the law of Moses.
So today when a Gentile pastor tries to put the curse back on those who don’t tithe and make them feel guilty like they rob God by using Mal 3 he is wrong and we need not listen to him and with draw from him.

Hebrews 7:5. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:...12. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
 
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