Changing the Bible Sabbath by presumption alone ?

BobRyan · May 11, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Yes, God has called everyone, but in their own order.

The Jews first.
Then Israel.
Then the Gentiles.

Jesus (earthly) ministry was only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", not to the Gentiles. That would come later through the established church.

Enoch taken to heaven before the cross... and is not a child of Abraham.

Before the cross "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave" John 3:16

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
Is it your claim that Numbers 15 is where the TEN Commandments are - and is not a place to find the civil laws that were applicable under Israel's national theocracy?

the civil laws (which in fact are not listed in the Ten Commandments) are only valid under a theocracy - as even your own pro-Sunday "Baptist Confession of Faith" and "Westminster Confession of Faith" admit that the civil laws cannot be applied outside of the theocracy that created them.

Please explain what you mean more clearly. Thanks.

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
Enoch taken to heaven before the cross... and is not a child of Abraham.

Before the cross "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave" John 3:16

Enoch was "translated", not taken to heaven.

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
Christ specifically states that the syrophoenician woman was not one of the "lost sheep of Israel" rather she was a gentile - living in a gentile country and the contrast between "children" and "dogs" that Christ made --- was a contrast between Jews and gentiles.

Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The form of the Greek word "but" means no exceptions, and is emphatic everywhere else it is used in the NT. That eliminates any doubt that the woman was an Israelite.

BobRyan · May 11, 2018

Comparing her to a dog (vs Jews as "children" was something Jesus initiated - the text says she was from that region and neither Jesus nor the woman in anyway show that they think she was not a gentile. Nor do the disciples show any indication of it -- nor does Matthew indicate she was not a gentile.

Matthew 15

The Syrophoenician Woman
21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

1. A Caananite - not an Israelite
2. Both Jesus and the woman refer to her nationality/race as "dog" as compared to Israelite "children"
3. Jesus goes out of his way to go to the gentile district of Tyre and the woman is not "from Israel but living in Tyre" rather she is "from that region" .
4. Jesus' argument against the woman is that she is not "the lost sheep of Israel" and that Heis only sent to them -- not her.

OldWiseGuy said:
Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yes that is the problem the woman was confronted with -- in addition to the next problem of not giving children's bread to dogs.

Her solution was -- “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

Christ's response to her solution -- 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great;"

BobRyan · May 11, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Enoch was "translated", not taken to heaven.

A distinction without a difference.

Same thing happened to Elijah.

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
A distinction without a difference.

Same thing happened to Elijah.

The only way biblically to get to heaven is to ascend, as Jesus did. And no one had ascended before Jesus did, and likely no one after, even Mary.

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
Comparing her to a dog (vs Jews as "children" was something Jesus initiated - the text says she was from that region and neither Jesus nor the woman in anyway show that they think she was not a gentile. Nor do the disciples show any indication of it -- nor does Matthew indicate she was not a gentile.

Matthew 15

The Syrophoenician Woman
21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

1. A Caananite - not an Israelite
2. Both Jesus and the woman refer to her nationality/race as "dog" as compared to Israelite "children"
3. Jesus goes out of his way to go to the gentile district of Tyre and the woman is not "from Israel but living in Tyre" rather she is "from that region" .
4. Jesus' argument against the woman is that she is not "the lost sheep of Israel" and that Heis only sent to them -- not her.
Yes that is the problem the woman was confronted with -- in addition to the next problem of not giving children's bread to dogs.

Her solution was -- “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

Christ's response to her solution -- 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great;"

Since when were the Jews "masters" of the gentiles, since they had little to do with each other?

Jesus was contradicting the disciples, not the woman. The disciples had proven themselves clueless about many things that Jesus said, and this was no exception. That she responded the way she did doesn't change his response to them.

BobRyan · May 11, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Since when were the Jews "masters" of the gentiles, since they had little to do with each other? .

Jews were not "mastering" anybody in syrophoenicia - you are "reaching".

Neither the Samaritan woman nor the syrophoenician woman claimed Jews were "mastering them" - it is Christ who speaks of the "Master's table" and the "Children of the Master" being the Jews. And then gentiles as the "dogs" being the argument against granting the woman's request. (using the bigoted standards that the disciples held so dear to show them their error).

Christ was demonstrating that "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really" -- even before the cross.

BobRyan · May 11, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
The only way biblically to get to heaven is to ascend, .

The Bible says "God took him" of Enoch and Elijah.

The only way biblically to get to heaven is for God to take you there.

BobRyan · May 11, 2018

To OWG --

Did you ever solve this problem for your proposal?

=================================================

Comparing her to a dog (vs Jews as "children" was something Jesus initiated - the text says she was from that region and neither Jesus nor the woman in anyway show that they think she was not a gentile. Nor do the disciples show any indication of it -- nor does Matthew indicate she was not a gentile.

Matthew 15

The Syrophoenician Woman
21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

1. A Caananite - not an Israelite
2. Both Jesus and the woman refer to her nationality/race as "dog" as compared to Israelite "children"
3. Jesus goes out of his way to go to the gentile district of Tyre and the woman is not "from Israel but living in Tyre" rather she is "from that region" .
4. Jesus' argument against the woman is that she is not "the lost sheep of Israel" and that Heis only sent to them -- not her.

OldWiseGuy said:
Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yes that is the problem the woman was confronted with -- in addition to the next problem of not giving children's bread to dogs.

Her solution was -- “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

Christ's response to her solution -- 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great;"

JLB777 · May 11, 2018

BobRyan said:
No such thing --

Have you actually read the 4th commandment in the OT?? Try Exodus 20:8-11.

It is "unchanged"... still.

Ok. If it’s unchanged then why don’t you answer the question I have asked?

How many people have you or your congregation put to death for violating the Sabbath?

15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

JLB

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2018

OldWiseGuy · May 12, 2018

BobRyan said:
To OWG --

Did you ever solve this problem for your proposal?

=================================================

Comparing her to a dog (vs Jews as "children" was something Jesus initiated - the text says she was from that region and neither Jesus nor the woman in anyway show that they think she was not a gentile. Nor do the disciples show any indication of it -- nor does Matthew indicate she was not a gentile.

Matthew 15

The Syrophoenician Woman
21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

1. A Caananite - not an Israelite
2. Both Jesus and the woman refer to her nationality/race as "dog" as compared to Israelite "children"
3. Jesus goes out of his way to go to the gentile district of Tyre and the woman is not "from Israel but living in Tyre" rather she is "from that region" .
4. Jesus' argument against the woman is that she is not "the lost sheep of Israel" and that Heis only sent to them -- not her.
Yes that is the problem the woman was confronted with -- in addition to the next problem of not giving children's bread to dogs.

Her solution was -- “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

Christ's response to her solution -- 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great;"

You must read it as it was written. The woman wasn't ignoring what Jesus said. She was ignoring what the disciples said. She claimed that Jesus was her Lord (and therefore master) and insisted on but a small blessing (crumbs) for her daughter because of that. That she looked for, and recognized, the messiah was unique to the scattered Israelites in the region, not the gentiles.

Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice". This woman was Jesus's lost sheep, who heard his 'voice' when he came for her.

BobRyan · May 13, 2018

To OWG --

Did you ever solve this problem for your proposal?

=================================================

Comparing her to a dog (vs Jews as "children" was something Jesus initiated - the text says she was from that region and neither Jesus nor the woman in anyway show that they think she was not a gentile. Nor do the disciples show any indication of it -- nor does Matthew indicate she was not a gentile.

Matthew 15

The Syrophoenician Woman
21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

1. A Caananite - not an Israelite
2. Both Jesus and the woman refer to her nationality/race as "dog" as compared to Israelite "children"
3. Jesus goes out of his way to go to the gentile district of Tyre and the woman is not "from Israel but living in Tyre" rather she is "from that region" .
4. Jesus' argument against the woman is that she is not "the lost sheep of Israel" and that Heis only sent to them -- not her.

OldWiseGuy said:
Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Yes that is the problem the woman was confronted with -- in addition to the next problem of not giving children's bread to dogs.

Her solution was -- “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

Christ's response to her solution -- 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great;"

OldWiseGuy said:
You must read it as it was written.

Agreed!

Absolutely agreed.

The basic facts are that "extreme inference is not even remotely exegesis"

BobRyan · May 13, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
You must read it as it was written. The woman wasn't ignoring what Jesus said. She was ignoring what the disciples said.

She was responding to Christ in his statement about dogs. None of that argues "I am not a gentile and I can prove it... " etc.

Nor does the author of the text say "this woman was not a gentile".

She claimed that Jesus was her Lord (and therefore master) and insisted on but a small blessing (crumbs) for her daughter because of that. That she looked for, and recognized, the messiah was unique to the scattered Israelites in the region, not the gentiles.

The practice of calling someone lord and claiming be servant - was the eastern concept of respect and had nothing to do with "you are the Messiah I have believed in sent for my people the Jews" -- as we all know.

Genesis 23
4 Ephron answered Abraham, 15 “Listen to me, my lord; the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver, but what is that between you and me? Bury your dead.”

16 Abraham agreed to Ephron’s terms and weighed out for him the price he had named in the hearing of the Hittites: four hundred shekels of silver, according to the weight current among the merchants."

1 Peter 3:6
6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

Your use of "extreme inference" that hinges on the most obtuse turn of a word or phrase - is textbook eisegesis.

When Abraham's servant travels to the city of Nahor - he meets an unknown girl who offers to water his camels -- and who also does not know that the servant is working for one of her relatives.

Genesis 24 --
17 The servant hurried to meet her and said, “Please give me a little water from your jar.”
18 “Drink, my lord,” she said, and quickly lowered the jar to her hands and gave him a drink.

Marco70 · May 13, 2018

BobRyan said:
The Bible says "God took him" of Enoch and Elijah.

The only way biblically to get to heaven is for God to take you there.

No one has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man
John3:13

BobRyan · May 13, 2018

BobRyan said:
Instead of 'dogs' -- here is how the NT authors refer to a Jew outside of Israel

Acts 18:24
"Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus."

Not even once does NT or OT refer to Jews outside of Israel "as dogs" as we all know.

That is irrefutable

BobRyan · May 13, 2018

Marco70 said:
No one has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man
John3:13

Angels have entered heaven many times. And Christ stands with Moses and Elijah - in glory in Matthew 17:3.

2 Kings 2:1 "When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal."

You are misreading 1 John 3:13

The point remains.

The7thColporteur · May 13, 2018

Marco70 said:
No one has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man
John3:13

You have a misunderstanding of that verse. It is not teaching that persons like Enoch, Elijah and Moses had not entered Heaven when Jesus made the statement. The entire context is about being born again from Heaven to have the Heavenly mind, as Jesus did:

John 3:13 KJB - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

All mankind need to be born again, as per verses 3,5,7 KJB. Why? They are all earthly minded, as per John 3:12, for Heavenly persons need not to be born again, but rather those of the earth:

John 3:12 KJB - If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

If Nicodemus could not even understand that he needed to be born again, how in the world could Jesus explain to him the things of Heaven, the Heavenly kingdom [see, enter, etc, vs 3,5,7 KJB]. One needs a Heavenly mind to get the spiritual things of Heaven as Jesus explained. The Carnal/Earthly mind is not subject to the Law of God and neither indeed can be, cannot understand spiritual matters of the Heavenly Kingdom:

Romans 8:7 KJB - Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Therefore, Jesus told Nicodemus, that he needed to be born again to even understand what Jesus was talking about in matters spiritual, and that no man of themselves went from the carnal and looked upward, but always downward on carnal things. It took the Heavenly minded person, to condescend [Philippians 2:5-11 KJB], and to be born on this earth, to bring the Heavenly things to mankind, that they may be born again, and enter into the Heavenly minded things, no longer dwelling upon the fleshly carnal, but that the Holy Spirit would be in control. God, through Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost, was in effect giving mankind his Kingdom [King's Dominion] back, self-control under/through submission to the higher power, God [as it was in Genesis, for when Adam sinned, he lost self-control, having turned over his submission to another, and thus lost all dominion, including control of himself, for the kingdom of Heaven is within]:

Colossians 3:2 KJB - Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Context, the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB]:

Exodus 20:22 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 KJB - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 KJB - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Philippians 3:19 KJB - Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Philippians 3:20 KJB - For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Colossians 3:1 KJB - If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:2 KJB - Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

This was where Jesus' always had his mind/heart [John 3:12 KJB; constantly dwelling upon the Heavenly], on the perfect will [Psalms 40:8; Matthew 6:10; Luke 11:2, 22:42 KJB] of His Father:

John 3:12 KJB - If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

John 3:13 KJB - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Changing the Bible Sabbath by presumption alone ?

Junior Member

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Junior Member

Junior Member

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Newbie

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads