So.....was Paul wrong as quoted in 1 Corinthians 15:51?

mkgal1 said:

I'm curious as to your resistance to believe this was truly as it's written (to that generation of people that Jesus was speaking to)? To me.....it's so much more hopeful because it demonstrates just how right Jesus was because we can look back in history and see His words came to pass....already...not in the future. We have proof (based on history).

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No. It's rather you who insist on Jesus telling a lie.

If He hasn't as I assume, then the verse needs to be interpreted the other way, especially under the circumstance that it's obviously a prophecy.

Acts2:38 said:

Yes, I do admit its prophecy. It was implied when I said that Mark 9:1 was talking about a future kingdom (the events in the book of Mark are before Acts 2). If you didn't get that I admitted as such, no, claimed since I brought it up, then how can you understand anything else going on?

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As long as you admit that it's a prophecy. Then anything is possible. There's no "you must interpret it this way". So it's no point to insist as you insisted in your post which I replied. Such as "It must be a physical kingdom come", or "tasting death must be a normal human death".

My attempt was to try to open you to other possibilities.

Hawkins said:

No. It's rather you insist on Jesus telling a lie.

If He hasn't as I assume, then the verse needs to be interpreted the other way.

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Since we discount a 1st century return of the Lord in any manner as a possible answer and don't look to Jesus in regard to any error we look elsewhere for understanding as much as one can. As Jesus is not here to clear up what He meant.

Zech 14 is still a future event and certainly all those in the 1st century have ALL passed away. (The life in the body). One would believe its the armies of the beast invading the Holy Land and the Lord making a way of escape from those armies by splitting the mount of olives in two. And the Lord shall not appear before that day.
Same city - same timing off the end
Zech 14:5 -earthquake
Rev 11:13 -earthquake

Paul who learned the gospel message by Revelation would give clarity to the things taught by Jesus not oppose Jesus's words.

This left alive on earth that last day are caught up as Paul taught which is consistent with Jesus's harvest of those saints on earth.

Randy777 said:

Since we discount a 1st century return of the Lord in any manner as a possible answer and don't look to Jesus in regard to any error we look elsewhere for understanding as much as one can. As Jesus is not here to clear up what He meant.

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It's exactly my stance to not to assume that Jesus has physically returned, and not to assume that Jesus lied that we need to take a further look at those supposedly prophecies from other possible perspectives.

Hawkins said:

It's exactly my stance to not to assume that Jesus has physically returned, and not to assume that Jesus lied that we need to take a further look at those supposedly prophecies from other possible perspectives.

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In the 1st century??? so the rapture has alway taken place long before we were born?? Is that your stance? If not you don't follow "shall not die before they see Jesus come with power"

Randy

Randy777 said:

Mark 9:1
And he said to them, "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

Pentecost is a possible answer -A 1st century resurrection is not.

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

One time -take away sin
once again - to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him

Not again and again and again

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That would predicated on the idea that the doctrine of resurrection is something other than a doctrine about immediate life after death in a physical body. Not physical as we understand it but physical none the less. Yes there are instances of the resurrection of dead flesh and blood bodies like Jesus’. The confusion on this issue is once more tied to prophecies that use illustrations about resurection.
One has to look at all the references about resurrection to determine this and not just the references in prophecy. This article in this link looks at all them.
Resurrection

Daniel Martinovich said:

That would predicated on the idea that the doctrine of resurrection is something other than a doctrine about immediate life after death in a physical body. Not physical as we understand it but physical none the less. Yes there are instances of the resurrection of dead flesh and blood bodies like Jesus’. The confusion on this issue is once more tied to prophecies that use illustrations about resurection.
One has to look at all the references about resurrection to determine this and not just the references in prophecy. This article in this link looks at all them.
Resurrection
View attachment 228580

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The resurrection that Jesus taught and Paul taught is on the last day and is the resurrection of us all. A bodily resurrection. A body not of the dust of the earth as flesh and blood can't inherit the "eternal" kingdom God promised to those that love Him. Hence those saints left alive on that last day are caught up and clothed with "immortality". You believe in people who come to the faith after the rapture don't you? pretrib. I don't hold to that timeline but if I did there would still be a need to cloth the saints alive on earth with immortality on that day. Paul wasn't wrong

Randy777 said:

The resurrection that Jesus taught and Paul taught is on the last day and is the resurrection of us all. A bodily resurrection. A body not of the dust of the earth as flesh and blood can't inherit the "eternal" kingdom God promised to those that love Him. Hence those saints left alive on that last day are caught up and clothed with "immortality". You believe in people who come to the faith after the rapture don't you? pretrib. I don't hold to that timeline but if I did there would still be a need to cloth the saints alive on earth with immortality on that day. Paul wasn't wrong

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Really?

1. That depending on the context of the verses the word resurrection is used to convey the idea that there is immediate life after death that includes a physical body. (Not physical as we know physical, but a physical body none the less.)


Matthew 22: 23-32. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished; it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here: John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: It was not unusual for Christ to differ with the culturally accepted beliefs of his day. What is strange, is that this scripture messes with consensus views of Christians today; as if nothing has ever changed in what believers hold to be true.
Here's an example to bring the significance of this scripture to light. Say there was a funeral of a child who from a family where they were all professing Christians. How often would their fellow Christians seek to comfort them with the words, "your child is in a better place , he is with Jesus now alive and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." It's comforting and true! Yet if someone said the same words like this: "He is with Jesus now resurrected and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." There would be looks of puzzlement, people may be offended, in fact the person in question may get a call from the pastor. Yet this is exactly how Jesus used the word resurrection, to describe the fact of immediate life after death that has nothing to do with dead bodies made alive, graves opening or future events.
There is something further to notice about Jesus’ answer in Matthew 22:30 concerning the physical nature of the simple life after death resurrected body: For in the resurrection they ….. are as the angels of God in heaven. The Bible calls angels spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Are they not all ministering spirits..... Yet angels throughout the scripture have physical bodies. They may not be physical as we understand physical, but in the scriptures they eat, drink, appear, disappear, walk through walls, are constantly mistaken for men, and take on different form, walk in fire, etc. etc. The point being is that our "inward" man is a spirit, just like the angels are spirits. We are not a cloud or a mist that floats around when these bodies die. When we step out of these bodies we step out on feet, we have legs, we have a body. It is physical, just not flesh and bone as we know physical right now. This can be seen in great detail in the scriptures below.
Here are three Bible stories that demonstrate point #1 again but also point #3 where a mans earthy physical body was changed into a heavenly physical body. Deuteronomy 34: 5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the Lord. 6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his tomb unto this day. 2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Luke 9: 28. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up to a mountain to pray. 29. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31.Appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.: We have two men. One of them, Moses; died, buried, his body still in the ground. The other Elijah, caught away to heaven. Yet here they are, both speaking to Jesus with the same bodies: they are alive, resurrected, and they have the appearance of angels. If resurrection is a one time future event how did this make it into the Bible? Moses has the same body as Elijah, Moses dead and buried and Elijah "raptured." See how this fits into the narrative of Jesus that in the resurrection they are physically. like the angels?
In another example of point #1 we have a story that includes someone who did not go to heaven but hell: Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. This is not the end of the world; the rich man still has unbelieving kinfolk on earth, and Jesus said there "was" a certain rich man, indicating this happened in the past, before Christ and the NT. Also these individuals have physical bodies that are recognizable; the rich man recognizes both Lazarus and Abraham. Then there is the use of this language: he lifted up his eyes and saw; he is thirsty and wants a drop of water on his tongue because he is tormented in fire, clearly indicating a body. Plus he still cares for the welfare of his family even though he is in hell. These are not awaiting resurrection, they are already resurrected and it is the past. So how can it be said that the Bible teaches a one time future event called the resurrection when we have these examples of people already resurrected?

From: Resurrection

Daniel Martinovich said:

Really?

1. That depending on the context of the verses the word resurrection is used to convey the idea that there is immediate life after death that includes a physical body. (Not physical as we know physical, but a physical body none the less.)


Matthew 22: 23-32. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished; it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here: John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: It was not unusual for Christ to differ with the culturally accepted beliefs of his day. What is strange, is that this scripture messes with consensus views of Christians today; as if nothing has ever changed in what believers hold to be true.
Here's an example to bring the significance of this scripture to light. Say there was a funeral of a child who from a family where they were all professing Christians. How often would their fellow Christians seek to comfort them with the words, "your child is in a better place , he is with Jesus now alive and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." It's comforting and true! Yet if someone said the same words like this: "He is with Jesus now resurrected and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." There would be looks of puzzlement, people may be offended, in fact the person in question may get a call from the pastor. Yet this is exactly how Jesus used the word resurrection, to describe the fact of immediate life after death that has nothing to do with dead bodies made alive, graves opening or future events.
There is something further to notice about Jesus’ answer in Matthew 22:30 concerning the physical nature of the simple life after death resurrected body: For in the resurrection they ….. are as the angels of God in heaven. The Bible calls angels spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Are they not all ministering spirits..... Yet angels throughout the scripture have physical bodies. They may not be physical as we understand physical, but in the scriptures they eat, drink, appear, disappear, walk through walls, are constantly mistaken for men, and take on different form, walk in fire, etc. etc. The point being is that our "inward" man is a spirit, just like the angels are spirits. We are not a cloud or a mist that floats around when these bodies die. When we step out of these bodies we step out on feet, we have legs, we have a body. It is physical, just not flesh and bone as we know physical right now. This can be seen in great detail in the scriptures below.
Here are three Bible stories that demonstrate point #1 again but also point #3 where a mans earthy physical body was changed into a heavenly physical body. Deuteronomy 34: 5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the Lord. 6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his tomb unto this day. 2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Luke 9: 28. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up to a mountain to pray. 29. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31.Appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.: We have two men. One of them, Moses; died, buried, his body still in the ground. The other Elijah, caught away to heaven. Yet here they are, both speaking to Jesus with the same bodies: they are alive, resurrected, and they have the appearance of angels. If resurrection is a one time future event how did this make it into the Bible? Moses has the same body as Elijah, Moses dead and buried and Elijah "raptured." See how this fits into the narrative of Jesus that in the resurrection they are physically. like the angels?
In another example of point #1 we have a story that includes someone who did not go to heaven but hell: Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. This is not the end of the world; the rich man still has unbelieving kinfolk on earth, and Jesus said there "was" a certain rich man, indicating this happened in the past, before Christ and the NT. Also these individuals have physical bodies that are recognizable; the rich man recognizes both Lazarus and Abraham. Then there is the use of this language: he lifted up his eyes and saw; he is thirsty and wants a drop of water on his tongue because he is tormented in fire, clearly indicating a body. Plus he still cares for the welfare of his family even though he is in hell. These are not awaiting resurrection, they are already resurrected and it is the past. So how can it be said that the Bible teaches a one time future event called the resurrection when we have these examples of people already resurrected?

From: Resurrection

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Since it was well know that the sadducees ,(unlike the Pharisees), didn't believe in a resurrection of the dead their question to Jesus was a trap. And Jesus saw that and they couldn't outfox Him. The resurrection and timing of the resurrection is found in the OT . Daniel 12:1; "Like the angels of God" is consistent with Pauls teaching with bodies not of the dust of the earth. None of this speaks to me of a pretrib rapture and those that took joy in the killing of the two witnesses in Rev 11 will be deceived into following the beast. They will not be repenting and coming to the Lord after that time but will be with the group that curses God because of the judgments He pours out into the world.

Randy777 said:

If your stance requires you to discredit the Apostle Paul you might want to rethink what you teach.

Pauls credentials - the credentials of a true Apostle of the Lord
NIV 2 Corth.
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into

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Jesus called him a chosen vessel. Do you want to discredit Jesus then?

Hawkins said:

As long as you admit that it's a prophecy. Then anything is possible.

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I realized you might be thinking one thing and I another. Let me clear the air.

I admit to THAT VERSE at THAT TIME (Mark 9:1) as being a prophecy and future event for those first century people. NOT our future.

Just making sure we understand what I am saying. If this is what you are saying, then we do agree on something, and I will state what you said, "then anything is possible".

Hawkins said:

There's no "you must interpret it this way". So it's no point to insist as you insisted in your post which I replied.

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Yes actually there is. It's called grammar and context matched with definition of words. How would you even get by in this world without knowing what someone is saying to you and what they mean?

Without this orderly way of communication, there would be chaos. People can make up any meaning they wanted for "Hello, how are you?".

If Jesus said He went to Galilee, then that's where He went. There's no hidden magical meaning or symbolic meaning like Revelation is full of.

If Jesus said to the crowd of people, "this generation will not die till they see the kingdom come with power", then that's exactly what it means. I am baffled as to how people think (or wish, seems like 2 Tim4:3-4 to me) that this means our future in the 21 century.

Grammar, context, definition of words matched to context. This is how the world works since Adam was created by God and used his first words. I suggest you apply them.

Hawkins said:

Such as "It must be a physical kingdom come", or

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I never said it was a physical kingdom. In the OT, the Israelites were the physical kingdom and God's chosen. Now we have a spiritual kingdom already established since Acts 2. That is the kingdom Jesus is referring to the entire time and the Jews just couldn't get it through their heads.

There will be NO other kingdom. That's it. The spiritual kingdom (the church) is the one talked about in Daniel 2:44. The very kingdom in Daniel 7:27. That very exact one Jesus is talking about in Matthew 10:7 and Mark 1:15. The same one that Jesus was talking about to Peter in Matthew 16:18-19.

The very kingdom that happened already in Acts 2.

Jesus already sits at the right hand of God, the throne of David since Christ is king and Lord over us (saints), and is High Priest of.

Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 2:32-36
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

Ephesians 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Christ is ruling the kingdom already. It is a spiritual kingdom. It will never be a physical anymore.

Hawkins said:

"tasting death must be a normal human death".

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I gave you the definitions of the very Greek words and the context. It amazes me every time how blind and stubborn people can be.

With love, I will withdraw from our conversation. If you have any further questions, I would be happy, but I don't wish for this to be an argumentative discussion.

You take care.

mkgal1 said:

This was a question asked of John Piper....here:

"In the New Testament we find repeated evidence of people whom we would call inspired who evidently believed — and sometimes claimed — that Jesus would come back soon, even during the writer’s own lifetime. Examples would be 1 Peter 4:7;Matthew 24:34; 26:64; 1 Corinthians 10:11; 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17; and1 Corinthians 15:51. How can we still consider them authoritative while discarding modern-day messengers whose prophecies don’t materialize? I am a bit uneasy that at some stage our kids will tell us that Paul was wrong about1 Corinthians 15:51 and so he’s not to be taken seriously. Do you have any suggestions as to how to deal with this tension?”~Jesus Said He’d Return Soon, So Where Is He?​

I disagree with Piper's answer....which was (the "coming" mentioned in these passages in Matthew are NOT about His second coming):

"First, sometimes the events that are expected soon are not the very coming of Jesus, but things leading up to the coming of Jesus. Here’s an example: Matthew 24:33, “So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.” Next verse, and this is the problem verse for a lot of people: “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34).


Now, notice carefully the phrase, “all these things” that are going to take place within a generation, does not include the actual coming of the Lord, because in the previous verse it says, “When you see all these things,” the very phrase of verse 34 used in verse 33, “You know that he is near,” not already here. The fact that these things will happen within a generation, these preparations for his coming, does not mean that his coming would happen in a generation".~John Piper
​

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1.) "coming of God" in old testament language usually has to do with God using nations to judge other nations:

Saul's kingdom going to David
2 Samuel 10-11
He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind.

Destruction of Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt;

Destruction of Samaria by the Assyrians
Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the Lord is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will melt under him, and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire,

2.) Coming of the son of man to the Father associated with Christ becoming King and the saints receiving a kingdom
Daniel 7:13-14 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,a coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

3.) Coming of Christ associated destruction of 1st century Jerusalem and the kingdom, not of this world, going to the another people

Matthew 21:40-41,45
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them

Matthew 22:6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Luke 21:20,27,32
“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

Luke 19:12,14-15,27
He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ “He was made king, however, and returned home. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”


4.) Apostles believed they were living at the end of the age, because Jesus told them they were and they received the spirit as prophesied about in the last days.

1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Acts 2:15-16
These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Randy777 said:

those that took joy in the killing of the two witnesses in Rev 11 will be deceived into following the beast. They will not be repenting and coming to the Lord after that time but will be with the group that curses God because of the judgments He pours out into the world.

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What makes you think those that took joy (and partied in the killing of the two witnesses) were ever not following the beast ?
As far as we see in Scripture, they never repent of serving demons. (they die condemned)

claninja said:

1.) "coming of God" in old testament language usually has to do with God using nations to judge other nations:

Saul's kingdom going to David
2 Samuel 10-11
He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind.

Destruction of Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt;

Destruction of Samaria by the Assyrians
Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the Lord is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will melt under him, and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire,

2.) Coming of the son of man to the Father associated with Christ becoming King and the saints receiving a kingdom
Daniel 7:13-14 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,a coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

3.) Coming of Christ associated destruction of 1st century Jerusalem and the kingdom, not of this world, going to the another people

Matthew 21:40-41,45
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them

Matthew 22:6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Luke 21:20,27,32
“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

Luke 19:12,14-15,27
He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ “He was made king, however, and returned home. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”


4.) Apostles believed they were living at the end of the age, because Jesus told them they were and the received the spirit as prophesied about the last days.

1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Acts 2:15-16
These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

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Ah well you stole my thunder. I didn’t have time to copy and paste all those the last two days.
My point was going to be. The coming of the Lord to oversee judgement and calamity. Bring reward and fulfill his purpose and promise was an established Old Testament doctrine that did not change in the NT. I mean you don’t even have half of the days of the Lord when he literally came down to earth that were fulfilled in the OT.
Because Christians were never familiar enough with the Word to see all those days you listed they got hoodwinked by the doctrine of men called “the second coming,” which is a perversion of established OT teaching and experience.
One thing I would like to add. It was the end of the age in the first century. The end of the first covenant age that is. The age when God almost exclusively used Ancient Israel to bring his word to the earth. It was not however the end of the age of the four gentile empires. That was a long way off.

mkgal1 said:

For example.....?

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His apostleship and split in apostleship

yeshuaslavejeff said:

What makes you think those that took joy (and partied in the killing of the two witnesses) were ever not following the beast ?
As far as we see in Scripture, they never repent of serving demons. (they die condemned)

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It was the beast who killed the two witnesses "after" their testimony was completed. I don't believe God allowed the beast to be in the world until His last warning was completed. Then the great tribulation shall come and the beast is in the world. God gave the people in the world one last chance to repent and that's why I believe God protected the two witnesses so that 1260 day of testimony would be completed. So that if any in the world could believe they will believe the signs given in rev 11. It is clear that the people in that generation have hardened their hearts by sinning. The beast is successful in killing the two witnesses where others couldn't stop them because their testimony had been completed. But that will add to the lie of the deception as in"who can make war with the beast?"